GDT: Free agency madness, brought to you by the letter G

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Sweatred

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Jan 28, 2019
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Nope. It's just childish to wish taxes didn't exist.

What's your grand design?

Forbid teams in low tax areas from spending as much money? Vetoed by players.

Allow high tax teams to spend over cap? Vetoed by owners.

This is a collectively bargained agreement. You think they didn't know that different cities have different tax rates when they decided to host the NHL on planet earth?

It would be very easy for the nhl to have a salary cap bonus to help equalize the disparity between taxation zones. It’s now very easy to quantify the various tax implications of the same contract in different jurisdictions.
 
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kellmuff96

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That being said, as much as we can say that Tkachuk benefited from Gaudreau, I guess a similar argument can be made that Debrincat benefited from playing with Kane. One of the main differences IMO is that Debrincat has an elite shot and has a spot on the left side of the PP where he is lethal (similar to Norris on the right side). As long as we can effectively tee him up with cross ice/seam passes on the PP, and I fully believe we have players with the vision and talent to do so since we do it already with Norris, Cat will score his goals and is a safer bet to be a 35 goal + 35 assist player on a fairly consistent basis.

Debrincat has scored at an elite level for years, even before Kane. I'm not worried about that in the slightest. And for as good as Kane is, lots of people sleeping on Stutzle's playmaking ability.
 

Burrowsaurus

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Mar 20, 2013
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Don't make assumptions before we have hard facts. Staying silent is a perfectly reasonable response to very serious accusations. They could just as easily have said we did nothing wrong and are ready to comply - and still be guilty of the crime. As long as names aren't listed by credible sources it is defamatory and inflammatory to speak about this.
There were actually statements given out a while ago. I think 2019. And the wording in some are different like “player x was cooperating with the investigation and cleared of any wrongdoing”. While others are like “not there at all didnt even know about this”.

Bath and formenton are legit I think the only two players that haven’t been heard of at all. Ever on this.

Doesn’t mean they’re guilty
 

GCK

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Oct 15, 2018
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It would be very easy for the nhl to have a salary cap bonus to help equalize the disparity between taxation zones. It’s now very easy to quantify the various tax implications of the same contract in different jurisdictions.
A couple things. Would RCAs still be allowed, how would SBs for Americans playing in Canada be taken into account. Does the cap go up in higher taxed jurisdictions or down in lower taxed jurisdictions. How is the 50/50 HRR split maintained. What happens with traded players, retention, etc. How do jock taxes get accounted for ?

It’s not simple.
 

bert

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There were actually statements given out a while ago. I think 2019. And the wording in some are different like “player x was cooperating with the investigation and cleared of any wrongdoing”. While others are like “not there at all didnt even know about this”.

Bath and formenton are legit I think the only two players that haven’t been heard of at all. Ever on this.

Doesn’t mean they’re guilty
Well no one is guilty based on the police investigation and the current criminal code. Doesn't mean there wasn't wrong doing but were not going to get a clear idea of what happened unless there is a testimony from the victim. Which doesn't look like it's happening. So what does the NHL and the Ottawa Senators do here? Are we going to go down the path that the court of public appeal is going to overule the judicial system? Slippery slope. If concrete evidence comes out that there was specific acts performed by specific people then it should he dealt with the right way. I am not of the opinion that there should be any room for speculation or error if there isn't proof.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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It would be very easy for the nhl to have a salary cap bonus to help equalize the disparity between taxation zones. It’s now very easy to quantify the various tax implications of the same contract in different jurisdictions.
So extra money in the system.

Owners say no. Or make an insane demand that the players say no to.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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So extra money in the system.

Owners say no. Or make an insane demand that the players say no to.
Technically with the HRR 50/50 split, there is never extra money in the system, even in the current system, salary isn't a guaranteed figure, it's more akin to a share of league revenue that varies based on how much other players sign for.

If we were to double the salary cap today, no extra money would enter the system, the teams/owners would still take 50% of HRR and the players would still get 50%. The cap it just a means to promote parity, and ensure teams don't get so out of line that Escrow isn't able to get the split back to 50/50 in a given year.
 

DueDiligence

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Nov 16, 2013
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It would be very easy for the nhl to have a salary cap bonus to help equalize the disparity between taxation zones. It’s now very easy to quantify the various tax implications of the same contract in different jurisdictions.
Totally unrealistic. What's next a "weather" bonus to support those areas that have too much cold and snow?
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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Technically with the HRR 50/50 split, there is never extra money in the system, even in the current system, salary isn't a guaranteed figure, it's more akin to a share of league revenue that varies based on how much other players sign for.

If we were to double the salary cap today, no extra money would enter the system, the teams/owners would still take 50% of HRR and the players would still get 50%. The cap it just a means to promote parity, and ensure teams don't get so out of line that Escrow isn't able to get the split back to 50/50 in a given year.
This isn't my proposal. I'm pointing out the flaw in this "easy" fix of giving a bonus to teams in high tax cities.

Are you implying that sweatreds solution is give a paper bonus and then claw it all back in escrow? Doesn't seem like you're giving him much credit.
 

DueDiligence

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Nov 16, 2013
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There were actually statements given out a while ago. I think 2019. And the wording in some are different like “player x was cooperating with the investigation and cleared of any wrongdoing”. While others are like “not there at all didnt even know about this”.

Bath and formenton are legit I think the only two players that haven’t been heard of at all. Ever on this.

Doesn’t mean they’re guilty
One thing in question is the degree to which the 7 or 8 guys were involved. Maybe a guy like Batherson walked in on the "proceedings" and after seeing what was happening walked back out. Depending on what was happening at that time he certainly would have knowledge of the event but certainly not the degree of what was transpiring. Hard to put out a statement if that is the case.
 

Sweatred

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A couple things. Would RCAs still be allowed, how would SBs for Americans playing in Canada be taken into account. Does the cap go up in higher taxed jurisdictions or down in lower taxed jurisdictions. How is the 50/50 HRR split maintained. What happens with traded players, retention, etc. How do jock taxes get accounted for ?

It’s not simple.

All things that can be accounted for.
 

kellmuff96

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Sep 13, 2010
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there's no chance they do any kind of salary cap allowance for places with higher taxes. What happens if local government changes things?

We're far more likely to see some kind of luxury tax before that. And that itself will never happen under Bettman.
 

playasRus

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Mar 21, 2009
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The Batherson Sokolov relationship being broken would suck a touch if he turns out to be heavily a part of the events. Not suck as much as for the victim obviously but that was a bit of a story book plot line.
 

HSF

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Sep 3, 2008
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Wouldn't be surprised if Formenton or Bath are John Doe 1 at this point

Just a hunch as to why they would remain quiet
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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This isn't my proposal. I'm pointing out the flaw in this "easy" fix of giving a bonus to teams in high tax cities.

Are you implying that sweatreds solution is give a paper bonus and then claw it all back in escrow? Doesn't seem like you're giving him much credit.
There are other issues with the proposal that @GCK pointed out, but adding money to the system is not one of them.

If we were to give say all Canadian teams a 5 mil Cap bonus, you would then set Escrow based on HRR projections relative to the new city specific salary cap, so it wouldn't be clawing it back, it would be all 700+ players from the 32 team would be paying more escrow.

A better way to think of it is players are given a % of league HRR. Each team is allocated ~1.6% of that HRR to spend on players. Giving a subset of teams a higher "Cap" just means adjusting the distribution of HRR player spending so some teams would have 1.4 while others would have 1.8%.

edit: my % are off, it would be half that because teams only have 50% of HRR to spend on player salaries, so .8% per team becomes .7 or .9 depending on the team, but the point remains the same.
 

Burrowsaurus

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Mar 20, 2013
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Well no one is guilty based on the police investigation and the current criminal code. Doesn't mean there wasn't wrong doing but were not going to get a clear idea of what happened unless there is a testimony from the victim. Which doesn't look like it's happening. So what does the NHL and the Ottawa Senators do here? Are we going to go down the path that the court of public appeal is going to overule the judicial system? Slippery slope. If concrete evidence comes out that there was specific acts performed by specific people then it should he dealt with the right way. I am not of the opinion that there should be any room for speculation or error if there isn't proof.
Well at this point it looks like only reputations on the line. London police seemed to have done their own investigation and cleared all parties as you say.

I’m not sure we can say “look they weren’t guilty so we are keeping them!” Shit I don’t even think the NHL can do that. This just so damaging.
 

BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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Well at this point it looks like only reputations on the line. London police seemed to have done their own investigation and cleared all parties as you say.

I’m not sure we can say “look they weren’t guilty so we are keeping them!” Shit I don’t even think the NHL can do that. This just so damaging.
They opened their investigation for review yesterday

Nothing will change with regards to the outcome of course, unless there was some serious negligence on their part
 

NorthCoast

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May 1, 2017
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All things that can be accounted for.
Yeah, its really not simple at all and would require the NHL to get full transparency into every players accounting which the players, nor almost any employee, would allow.

Read below, it gives you an idea of how it's very far from black and white...this city is higher tax vs this city....kind of thing.


If you are worried about parity. Eliminating bonuses, capping LTIR, capping number of two-way contracts, etc would have more impact. I think taxes factor into some players decision, but IMO it's more the middle range of players who care the most. Low end players will play wherever a contract is given. High-end players can often make a lot more money off the ice in Canada than they can in a smaller us market. I think the players that move south due so mainly for lifestyle reasons.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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There are other issues with the proposal that @GCK pointed out, but adding money to the system is not one of them.

If we were to give say all Canadian teams a 5 mil Cap bonus, you would then set Escrow based on HRR projections relative to the new city specific salary cap, so it wouldn't be clawing it back, it would be all 700+ players from the 32 team would be paying more escrow.

A better way to think of it is players are given a % of league HRR. Each team is allocated ~1.6% of that HRR to spend on players. Giving a subset of teams a higher "Cap" just means adjusting the distribution of HRR player spending so some teams would have 1.4 while others would have 1.8%.

edit: my % are off, it would be half that because teams only have 50% of HRR to spend on player salaries, so .8% per team becomes .7 or .9 depending on the team, but the point remains the same.
So in this instance you are theoretically trying to collectively bargain a proposal that harms 2/3 of the players AND owners.

You'd be a very popular guy at the bargaining table.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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Formenton wasn’t of legal drinking age and there weren’t any photos of him at the bar. Might not mean much though since he probably could have had ways around that being who he is.
Theoretically John Doe one wouldn't ever need to be at the event.
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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Wait now. Unless I am not correctly remembering what I read yesterday, didn't HC refer the matter to the London police at 7 pm the day they heard of the allegations? That seems appropriate.
According to the lawyers HC later settled with the alleged victim without seeking to hear from the defendants at all, which the lawyer feels implicitly accepts their guilt, apparently without even knowing who they were.

Guilty without a chance to defend.

This being the lawyer perspective of course, but troubling behaviour by HC if true.
Apparently the London police investigated but determined that there wasn’t enough information to move forward initially. They are double checking now to see if there is an avenue to further investigate. Given that the alleged victim is now willing to cooperate with the HC investigation, she may also be willing to speak to the police now.

We shall see
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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So in this instance you are theoretically trying to collectively bargain a proposal that harms 2/3 of the players AND owners.

You'd be a very popular guy at the bargaining table.
I'm not sure why you're taking this as my proposal. All I'm saying is you are wrong that the proposal added money to the system. Time to take the loss and move on instead of attacking me for pointing out your error.

As already mentioned, the issues lie elsewhere, GCK pointed out a few already. But any attempt to implement this type of system though wouldn't be Canadian teams only, that was just an example for simplicity sake, an actual implementation would likely find a mean to which teams are brought towards, thus resulting in roughly half the teams being winners and the other half being losers in the change. This still presents problems in trying to get people to agree to the change, no doubt there.
 

NorthCoast

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May 1, 2017
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We just don't know. We may never know.

And I would be cautious stating that any of the following is anything more than pure speculation.



The outcome of the WJ situation could go a lot of different directions. The following could apply to either player.

1) They had no involvement (never in the room) and have stayed silent purely to prevent helping the media/public narrow down the identities of those involved. You can say "well, so and so made a statement, why wouldn't they", but they may have there own reasons or just disagree with how others players handled it. If this applies to either player, it's a blip on their record in 6 months.

2) They were in the room but not involved, felt peer pressured to be there, were not involved in the direct activities, and cooperated fully with police, and have been since instructed to stay silent due to settlement agreement with HC. Not a great look, would have some reputation recovery to do, but I don't see it taking them off the ice.

3) Were involved in legal activities, nothing occurred that is deemed to cross legal lines after the additional reviews. IF all the info comes out, and IF this is the case, then yes, it could take them off the ice, or at least off the sens. "But there was no crime?" Doesn't matter. The code of conduct clauses in there contracts have nothing to do with illegality. It's there so that teams can end association with a player that say/does things that the team as a private business does not want to be associated with. This could result in league punishment, or it could be left up to individual teams to decide their tolerance for the bad press in their market (ex: Deshaun Watson).

4) Were involved in illegal activities. This one should speak for itself.

5) A scenario we are not aware of. There are infinite other potential possibilities as to what exactly happened and what the outcomes will be. These are real people involved and it's a very serious matter.

Most importantly, I hope whatever justice is warranted is what occurs for the sake of the victim.
 
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