Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[Micklebot]

Surgery is not required to go on LTIR. A player can treat an injury with a lengthy rehab program that doesn’t involve surgery and go on LTIR.

A back injury could keep a player out for months without requiring surgery, and they could go on LTIR.

He can go on LTIR, but assuming he will stay on LTIR for 51 games is completely unrealistic,

This is where you seem to be missing the point,
1. He and the team likely believe he will be back before the end of the season, if they didn't, it's highly likely theyd have chosen the surgery route.
2. You can't keep healthy players on LTIR, at least not without lying.

As much as you want to disappear Perron and his cap hit, the team and player expects him back before the end of the year. A conversation with the player to agree to stay in LTIR when nothing about his timeline suggests he is expected to miss the remainder of the season to accommodate a trade is cap circumvention, hence my original point about faking it.

 

[DackellDuck]

He can go on LTIR, but assuming he will stay on LTIR for 51 games is completely unrealistic,

This is where you seem to be missing the point,
1. He and the team likely believe he will be back before the end of the season, if they didn't, it's highly likely theyd have chosen the surgery route.
2. You can't keep healthy players on LTIR, at least not without lying.

As much as you want to disappear Perron and his cap hit, the team and player expects him back before the end of the year. A conversation with the player to agree to stay in LTIR when nothing about his timeline suggests he is expected to miss the remainder of the season to accommodate a trade is cap circumvention, hence my original point about faking it.

A conversation with the player about the best course of rehab considering his injury and age and desire to keep playing past this season. Not a conversation about agreeing to stay on LTIR to clear cap.

The latter is cap circumvention. The former is a decision about recovery between a player and team, in which numerous factors are considered.

I think you’re pretty naive about how LTIR can, and has been, used in the last several years. There’s a reason why it’s been such a big topic, and “37 year old David Perron misses 50 games rehabbing from a slipped disc” wouldn’t register on the “circumvention” scale. It’d probably be below “Jani Hakanpaa passes a medical to sign his contract, skates in camp, but is put on LTIR to start the season when the Leafs can’t clear enough cap space and don’t want to waive Connor Timmins just yet…”

They didn’t go that route, but like I said, they could have.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Ask him to fake something? The guy is 37 years old, has a back injury, and hasn’t even taken a body check in a practice yet. He’s been out for almost 6 weeks now and there’s no timetable for his return. He’s not healthy. If he was healthy he’d be playing.

It wouldn’t be faking anything, it’d be giving him a couple extra months to recover while on LTIR, which is something many teams have done before. It’s not exactly a crazy scenario. It happens. In the real world!

The guy obviously has a real, and serious, issue. It’s 100% an option should the team want to go that route.



Right, but you don’t add a 3.75M player with 2 years left on his deal after this one.

To hedge for Yakemchuk not being ready, you sign a veteran #6 in the summer to a 1 year contract, or bring back JBD.

Ever heard the expression 'bounty of riches'? That's what smart contingency planning leads to.

You build the team as if your completely unproven rookie doesn't exist and if he pushes said 2 x $3.75M player out of the lineup you convert that player into an asset and make space for said rookie and you come out ahead.

You're telling me you wouldn't have made the Alexandre Carrier move that Montreal did because Yak may emerge during that window?

 

[DackellDuck]

Ever heard the expression 'bounty of riches'? That's what smart contingency planning leads to.

You build the team as if your completely unproven rookie doesn't exist and if he pushes said 2 x $3.75M player out of the lineup you convert that player into an asset and make space for said rookie and you come out ahead.

You're telling me you wouldn't have made the Alexandre Carrier move that Montreal did because Yak may emerge during that window?

I wouldn’t have made the Carrier trade because I don’t think adding an undersized puck mover is what we need on our third pairing. I think we need another physical guy who can clear a crease.

But I also don’t think we should spend almost $4M to shore up the third pairing. Not smart cap allocation, IMO.

Did we even have an asset equivalent to Justin Barron? I don’t think JBD is it.

 

[HSF]

No cap space and no expendable young RD to acquire him.

Habs were uniquely positioned with a boat load of surplus young defensemen to take advantage of Barry Trotz's idiocy in trading Carrier 28 games after signing him to a 3 year deal.

Hughes and Gorton have done an incredible job for Montreal. Super annoying.

JBD?

Also cap shoudn't be an excuse at this point Perron has missed half the season. They can kick the can down the road when Perron is actually close

So, magically disappear Perron. Unfortunately the team lives in the real world, and you can't force a player to fake an injury once healthy. Maybe if Perron was having surgery we could have tried that, but it isn't really something you can whip together before the halfway point of the year when a player unexpectedly hits the trade market.

With Zub back, and Matinpalo playing pretty well, I'm happy with our D right now tbh, We need help up front more than on D with Perron and Amadio out.

I don't understand why we are so worried about Perron when he has missed half the season. Worry about clearing his cap when he is actually close

I wouldn’t have made the Carrier trade because I don’t think adding an undersized puck mover is what we need on our third pairing. I think we need another physical guy who can clear a crease.

But I also don’t think we should spend almost $4M to shore up the third pairing. Not smart cap allocation, IMO.

A guy who can effectively move the puck would help the bottom pairing esp since he is a guy who can move up your lineup if required. If you think playing Kleven and JBD every night is the answer then you haven't been paying attention.

There is no need to pencil in Yak into the NHL lineup for next year when he is the perfect player to have in the AHL and to bring up and down when we have injuries

 

[Hale The Villain]

JBD?

Also cap shoudn't be an excuse at this point Perron has missed half the season. They can kick the can down the road when Perron is actually close

Borgen is better than JBD. Was looking like a potential top 4 defensive RD last season.

The Perron stuff is unrealistic and no GM would take that risk.

The only way Carrier to Ottawa could have worked is if we were trading Norris to Nashville.

 

[HSF]

Borgen is better than JBD. Was looking like a potential top 4 defensive RD last season.

The Perron stuff is unrealistic and no GM would take that risk.

The only way Carrier to Ottawa could have worked is if we were trading Norris to Nashville.

there are def GMs out there who would have patched the hole on defense by now esp with how concerning the injury to perron is. The prices are going to be high at the deadline

BTW Carrier was tradded for Justin Barron

 

[HSF]

5 centres signed for next year. Either Norris or Greig is getting moved after the season IMO.

Greig plays wing

 

[PlayersLtd]

I wouldn’t have made the Carrier trade because I don’t think adding an undersized puck mover is what we need on our third pairing. I think we need another physical guy who can clear a crease.

But I also don’t think we should spend almost $4M to shore up the third pairing. Not smart cap allocation, IMO.

Did we even have an asset equivalent to Justin Barron? I don’t think JBD is it.

You missed my point. It had nothing to do with Carrier the player, it had to do with bolstering a position for more than 1 year like Montreal opted to do despite having young players coming up (Mailloux and Reinbacher, both R side, both potentially ready next year).

And $3.75M was a number you threw out there, not me.

I stand by the original point that you eluded. If you have a chance to sign a player with term to the third pair you do it regardless of Yak coming up. Cross the Yak bridge when you get there, build the best team you can until then. Thats not really debatable.

 

[TheNewEra]

at this stage if we cant get a pick for forsberg we should waive him and gain 1.15 in cap, with the potential for his full cap hit if a gm is drunk/desperate, this is obviously for when ullmark is back

considering JBD is basically done for the season, and we operate under the worst case scenario math wise of a fully healthy roster (with matinpalo and gregor being the extras) it would give us 1.4 million in cap (prorated) to try and add a piece.

if their is a retention market for forsberg we could retain on forsberg and and open up 1.375 in cap instead

so in a very long winded way we can add approximately a 3 million dollar player at full health

 

[PlayOn]

at this stage if we cant get a pick for forsberg we should waive him and gain 1.15 in cap, with the potential for his full cap hit if a gm is drunk/desperate, this is obviously for when ullmark is back

considering JBD is basically done for the season, and we operate under the worst case scenario math wise of a fully healthy roster (with matinpalo and gregor being the extras) it would give us 1.4 million in cap (prorated) to try and add a piece.

if their is a retention market for forsberg we could retain on forsberg and and open up 1.375 in cap instead

so in a very long winded way we can add approximately a 3 million dollar player at full health

You can’t really waive Forsberg without acquiring another goalie. If he gets picked up you’re screwed the second Ullmark or Merilainen gets hurt, and we’ve had enough injuries with all of our goalies this year that this should be a concern.

I don’t know how feasible it is to carry three goalies but that might be the only real option other than sending Merilainen back down. Guess we’ll see when the time comes.

 

[Micklebot]

A conversation with the player about the best course of rehab considering his injury and age and desire to keep playing past this season. Not a conversation about agreeing to stay on LTIR to clear cap.

The latter is cap circumvention. The former is a decision about recovery between a player and team, in which numerous factors are considered.

I think you’re pretty naive about how LTIR can, and has been, used in the last several years. There’s a reason why it’s been such a big topic, and “37 year old David Perron misses 50 games rehabbing from a slipped disc” wouldn’t register on the “circumvention” scale. It’d probably be below “Jani Hakanpaa passes a medical to sign his contract, skates in camp, but is put on LTIR to start the season when the Leafs can’t clear enough cap space and don’t want to waive Connor Timmins just yet…”

They didn’t go that route, but like I said, they could have.

You're not asking him to miss 50 games, your asking for him to miss 64, that's how many games he'd have to miss in total to this injury.

The player clearly wants to keep going, haakanapa situation was different as he was expected not to be able to play with his knees being shot but signed a deal to give it one last shot, it turned out he couldn't and they moved on.

What's naive is thinking Staois could have just talked to Perron and he'd have said sure, I'll sit out the rest of the year so that you can trade for a different player, well after theyd already come up with an initial treatment plan. Your whole premise is based on a player just stepping aside based on nothing but he's older and back injuries can be finicky, not because he had a set back or something wasn't going according to schedule, but because you'd like some cap hit to disappear

It's fantasy nonsense, just like when people say we should have signed some specific free agent that was never going to come here.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The player, in conjunction with the team, chooses the rehab program. It’s a collaborative relationship and decision. Neither side “dictates” anything to the other.

The GM and training staff could have gotten together with Perron and his agent, and they could have discussed the best course of action. It could have been decided that considering Perron’s age and the nature of back injuries, it’s best to be extra cautious and give him as much time as possible to recover. Perhaps take things slow with the goal of getting him back on the ice in March so he could be ready for a playoff run. Perron could have said, you know what, that makes sense. I want to be 100% for the playoffs and next season. Maybe play beyond that. I don’t want to risk worsening it by coming back too soon. That, of course, would have given the team the benefit of LTIR cap space. But that wouldn’t have been why that course of recovery was taken. No no, absolutely not!

That’s how things work. It’s not magic. It’s a grey area that can be manipulated when both sides find it beneficial. There’s no objective 3rd party from the league that “medically clears” players.

Of course, to my original point, the team and Perron clearly chose not to do that.

But your original question was how could they clear 3.75M? That’s how.

And it could still happen. I agree that Carrier was not the guy to go out and try and get, though.

That’s not really reality, you can’t fake 3 more months of injury.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Went from being a touted as a very solid top 4 D a few 13 minute games into his tenure to being passed by 4 AHLers in Brisbois, Desharnis, Forbert and Juulson.

Wonder who the next team will be that is left wondering why the coach is so stupid and doesn’t want to play him.

Who’s going to be the next team dumb enough to take desharnais and juulsen.

 

[Micklebot]

Matinpalo sure looked great on that first Dallas goal

Ostapchuk getting walked around by his man and giving him a clear path to the net put Mantipalo in a really tough spot, Ostapchuk turned a 3 on 3 rush into a 2 on 1 with speed and Matinpalo had to switch from keeping his gap on a guy that was slow to worrying about the guy streaking towards the net.

 

[Loach]

This page is crazy.

 

[BondraTime]

Carrier would have been an absolute steal, would have helped shore up the D for the next few years. I have really liked him for a long time.

Easier said than done of course, he's not making too much, and is a steal at his contract, but in season with where the Sens are it would have been near impossible to make happen.

Montreal had an absolute bullseye. I have absolutely no clue what Trotz was doing, Carrier would have returned an absolute haul last year at the deadline, at least a late 1st + some ammo.

Those are the unsung hero's, the ~20 minute a night guys who are steady and shore up the D.

 

[Qward]

You're not asking him to miss 50 games, your asking for him to miss 64, that's how many games he'd have to miss in total to this injury.

If you are asking him to miss 64, you are asking him to miss 82. If you are asking him to miss 82, you are asking him to miss 162. If you are asking him to miss 162, why the hell did you sign him? If you are asking why the hell did you sign him, you should be looking in the mirror to make sure you are not Pierre Dorion.

 

[Micklebot]

If you are asking him to miss 64, you are asking him to miss 82. If you are asking him to miss 82, you are asking him to miss 162. If you are asking him to miss 162, why the hell did you sign him? If you are asking why the hell did you sign him, you should be looking in the mirror to make sure you are not Pierre Dorion.

We signed him to play hockey, and he's rehabbing to do just that. Injuries happen, he'll likely get back into the lineup at some point. Wallace was saying today he watched him and he looks fine skating in practice, they aren't going to rush him, of course, but he's likely not so bad as to suggest he should/could be LTIR'd to finish the year.

 

[Micklebot]

Montreal had an absolute bullseye. I have absolutely no clue what Trotz was doing, Carrier would have returned an absolute haul last year at the deadline, at least a late 1st + some ammo.

This is the confusing part. Trotz let go of both Carrier and Fabbro only to see them play great on other teams, I have no idea what he was thinking.

 

[Qward]

We signed him to play hockey, and he's rehabbing to do just that. Injuries happen, he'll likely get back into the lineup at some point. Wallace was saying today he watched him and he looks fine skating in practice, they aren't going to rush him, of course, but he's likely not so bad as to suggest he should/could be LTIR'd to finish the year.

 

[DueDiligence]

That’s not really reality, you can’t fake 3 more months of injury.

A back injury can be "faked" for years. What doctor can overrule a player and say that player doesn't feel pain? Pain is a subjective thing.
The Leafs can get guys to sit out when healthy because they pay their full salary and don't even claim some cases against insurance. They have the money to do it and get away with it.

 

[GCK]

This is the confusing part. Trotz let go of both Carrier and Fabbro only to see them play great on other teams, I have no idea what he was thinking.

Fabbro was never really given his due by Nashville under 2 different coaches. Trotz is trying to pivot and retool, he has moved Carrier and O’Reilly is next. At least Trotz hasn’t pulled a Muckler, he is giving the guys he signed this summer a say in where they are being moved to.

 

[Micklebot]

Fabbro was never really given his due by Nashville under 2 different coaches. Trotz is trying to pivot and retool, he has moved Carrier and O’Reilly is next. At least Trotz hasn’t pulled a Muckler, he is giving the guys he signed this summer a say in where they are being moved to.

He moved out/waived 28 year old and 26 year old respectively RHD for next to nothing in return, that's not retooling, that's arson.

he'd have been better off firing Brunette and keeping two solid RHD if he wanted to retool.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You can’t really waive Forsberg without acquiring another goalie. If he gets picked up you’re screwed the second Ullmark or Merilainen gets hurt, and we’ve had enough injuries with all of our goalies this year that this should be a concern.

I don’t know how feasible it is to carry three goalies but that might be the only real option other than sending Merilainen back down. Guess we’ll see when the time comes.

I mean, worst case you can always just pick up another goalie that also can't stop pucks. There's bound to be bodies available if needed, and if they aren't any good, then nothing has changed anyways.