Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's not even pining, it's that guys were brought in to help the team have flat out failed and it's f***ing annoying, especially when we paid to get rid of similar players that we brought in.

That's fair, they've failed so far, no argument there, and I didn't mean that directed at you specifically, but Joseph gets a ton of discussion here and is now constantly referenced as an example of GM "failure". Guy barely averaged over 10 goals a season the last 3 years and is back to his TB role after imo being elevated above his abilities in Ottawa. He's a nothing burger that's fast imo, but now that the team sucks, people can hold it up like oh but Joseph, if we only had Joseph and had kept the 3rd and talking about the Amadio signing like it made zero sense despite that thread filled with praise. He has cratered, can't deny that, but the last 3 years absolutely justified his contract and Joseph is also not putting up much of consequence atm.

Maybe they would be better with him this year, but after 2 failed seasons with him, hard for me to wrap my head around that.

 

[Micklebot]

Amadio played with tkatchuk and stutzle for like 5 games. I’m sure their underlying numbers were fine but I think amadio was still 0 points.

Joseph should some chemistry.

End of the day it’s a bit of a wash. I think amadio is def better defensively

He played about 50 mins with Tkachuk, I'm not sure that's enough to really get much of a read on, but it's a fair point, Joseph made the best of that opportunity.

I really liked how Amadio-Pinto-Perron looked, it's a small sample too since Perron has missed so much time and Pinto was hurt for a bit too, but I thought they played a really smart game well suited to third line duties. I hope they try it again when Perron is back, and hopefully Pinto can find his groove by then,

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yep, I agree.

People are assuming Jospeh would be producing similar to how he did last year, but I don't think that's fair either. He played a lot with Giroux and Stutzle, in fact those were his most common linemates,

Amadio has been playing with an ice cold Pinto, and Gregor.

There's a lot of context that gets ignored when people lament Joseph vs Amadio.

I'd be more concerned if it were just him, but there's a ton of guys on the team underperforming offensively. Just like there's a path to Pinto, Grieg, Perron, etc. doing more, there's a path for Amadio. Imo if Joseph were here, he'd be just another one of those guys. I also never loved his scoring touch. Seemed like he was an ace at getting in position to score, but didn't bury it much.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

He played about 50 mins with Tkachuk, I'm not sure that's enough to really get much of a read on, but it's a fair point, Joseph made the best of that opportunity.

I really liked how Amadio-Pinto-Perron looked, it's a small sample too since Perron has missed so much time and Pinto was hurt for a bit too, but I thought they played a really smart game well suited to third line duties. I hope they try it again when Perron is back, and hopefully Pinto can find his groove by then,

Was that how we started the year?

 

[HSF]

I dont mind moving from Joseph to upgrade that position but did we really upgrade and we gave up a pick?

Using that money for Branny is probably more helpful and makes a better roster. 6mill between Perron and Amadio is a lot

 

[Micklebot]

Was that how we started the year?

Amadio started with Pinto and Perron. it was about 5 games in when we tried Amadio up with Brady, idk if it had to do with Greig getting hurt because he was initially on the second line so they had to mix things up a bit. Perron and Pinto both came out around that time too (though after Greig was back)

 

[SpezDispenser]

I dont mind moving from Joseph to upgrade that position but did we really upgrade and we gave up a pick?

Yeah, this is the point. And if we're about to enter phase "burn everything" we'll need a f*** of a lot better thinking than that.

 

[SpezDispenser]

That's fair, they've failed so far, no argument there, and I didn't mean that directed at you specifically, but Joseph gets a ton of discussion here and is now constantly referenced as an example of GM "failure". Guy barely averaged over 10 goals a season the last 3 years and is back to his TB role after imo being elevated above his abilities in Ottawa. He's a nothing burger that's fast imo, but now that the team sucks, people can hold it up like oh but Joseph, if we only had Joseph and had kept the 3rd and talking about the Amadio signing like it made zero sense despite that thread filled with praise. He has cratered, can't deny that, but the last 3 years absolutely justified his contract and Joseph is also not putting up much of consequence atm.

Maybe they would be better with him this year, but after 2 failed seasons with him, hard for me to wrap my head around that.

It's merely a nervous example. Why was it done? Why the 3rd? Why the wasted assets? Again, I have no idea what the future holds for this team, but being in the same position in December as the last several years has to be frustrating to all. I'm almost done at this point and I'm a pretty die hard fan.

Can this new GM make some of the trades that change the culture of the club? Some of the recent moves are red flags, while others are positives, but my personal opinion is that I kind of wish we had a more established guy.

 

[Loach]

It's merely a nervous example. Why was it done? Why the 3rd? Why the wasted assets? Again, I have no idea what the future holds for this team, but being in the same position in December as the last several years has to be frustrating to all. I'm almost done at this point and I'm a pretty die hard fan.

Can this new GM make some of the trades that change the culture of the club? Some of the recent moves are red flags, while others are positives, but my personal opinion is that I kind of wish we had a more established guy.

Joseph is the only guy DJ really disciplined. Remember when he was going to play his brother for the first time, the fam was in town, and DJ sat him out. Add that to having to throw in a third to move him. Somebody said he's playing like 12 min on the 4th line, at 2.95m....something ain't right with the guy.

 

[HSF]

Yeah, this is the point. And if we're about to enter phase "burn everything" we'll need a f*** of a lot better thinking than that.

I don't think we are going to burn anything but we do need better thinking even to improve the team. TSN 1200 they were talking about trading a core peice down the middle for a defensemen. Why? We have seen multiple defensemen who can play bottom pair and move up to 2nd pair go for minimal assets

 

[SensFanInMTL]

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't think there is a team in the league that would have picked Joseph over Amadio in a draft of pro players available at 2.5-3m per for nothing.

The Ottawa Senators team is flawed. Staios brought in some vets that had one to surround the "core" it hasn't met expectations. Criticize Staios for it.

 

[SpezDispenser]

I don't think we are going to burn anything but we do need better thinking even to improve the team. TSN 1200 they were talking about trading a core peice down the middle for a defensemen. Why? We have seen multiple defensemen who can play bottom pair and move up to 2nd pair go for minimal assets

I guess. At some point this shit gets too much for me personally, but maybe we can find some pieces to help.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I listened to this yesterday. Save yourself the time nothing burger

 

[Micklebot]

Joseph is the only guy DJ really disciplined. Remember when he was going to play his brother for the first time, the fam was in town, and DJ sat him out. Add that to having to throw in a third to move him. Somebody said he's playing like 12 min on the 4th line, at 2.95m....something ain't right with the guy.

he's getting about 11:12 of ES icetime a game,

But...

He's also got Holloway and Schenn as his most common linemates, who are both middle six guys. I think early in the season he was used more on the 4th line, and people have just assumed that stayed true? But the more I look, the more it seems like he's been in the top 9. I could go check the game by game lines to see how he's been used, but last game he was 4th among fwds in 5v5 TOI

 

[Loach]

he's getting about 11:12 of ES icetime a game,

But...

He's also got Holloway and Schenn as his most common linemates, who are both middle six guys. I think early in the season he was used more on the 4th line, and people have just assumed that stayed true? But the more I look, the more it seems like he's been in the top 9. I could go check the game by game lines to see how he's been used, but last game he was 4th among fwds in 5v5 TOI

12min es. Ahhh.That's on me for not reading right. Plus the pk I guess. Thanks for sorting that out. Still something fishy with him though.

 

[SensFanInMTL]

I listened to this yesterday. Save yourself the time nothing burger

Thanks just closed it live as we speak. Plus nobody will take the Norris contract. Plus I don't want to lose him for nothing even if a buyout was possible.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's merely a nervous example. Why was it done? Why the 3rd? Why the wasted assets? Again, I have no idea what the future holds for this team, but being in the same position in December as the last several years has to be frustrating to all. I'm almost done at this point and I'm a pretty die hard fan.

Can this new GM make some of the trades that change the culture of the club? Some of the recent moves are red flags, while others are positives, but my personal opinion is that I kind of wish we had a more established guy.

Fair. I can't pretend to know. The 3rd seemed to be the accepted cost dating back even a year to when Dorion was rumored to be trying to move him to make room for Pinto, so no real question there. As to why, Loach provided reasoning that I personally think does have merit, but some will disagree. I do think it was likely a "person" personnel call, but don't have much to base that on.

I hope he can. Not much at their disposal to work with though. I was on board with the changes this summer, but it's fair for some criticism now, given where they are. Some have worked out like Jensen, some haven't like Amadio, some haven't so far like Ullmark, and some have basically not played like Perron.

 

[DueDiligence]

I get annoyed. It was very predictable that if the team struggled, we'd hear all about how Joseph, Chychrun & Brannstrom were actually the solutions for this team and the GM is a dunce. Never mind them being here for previous failed years. Maybe the new guys weren't the solutions, hard to argue that atm, but I'm not going to pine for guys that were already here when the team couldn't get it done

I thought the team could have kept Chychrun and traded Chabot. He's a goal scorer from the blueline which the team needs and his defensive problems could have been mitigated with a partner like Jensen. But the big bonus would have been the $3.4 million in cap savings compered to Chabot.

 

[bicboi64]

I thought the team could have kept Chychrun and traded Chabot. He's a goal scorer from the blueline which the team needs and his defensive problems could have been mitigated with a partner like Jensen. But the big bonus would have been the $3.4 million in cap savings compered to Chabot.

Chychrun would've ended up costing us $8 million aav as well on his next deal. He was also buttery soft which was frustrating considering how much of a gymrat he is. He didn't need to be delivering Gudas or Zadarov type hits, but he was shockingly bad at using his physical strength on the defensive side of the game.

Chabot isn't the best at using his body to tangle guys up or block passing lanes or anything like that, but Chychrun was so bad at that he makes Chabot look like Volchenkov.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I thought the team could have kept Chychrun and traded Chabot. He's a goal scorer from the blueline which the team needs and his defensive problems could have been mitigated with a partner like Jensen. But the big bonus would have been the $3.4 million in cap savings compered to Chabot.

It's a potential route they could have gone, I can see the appeal. I'm higher on Chabot than you I think. Also would have required a new contract similar to Chabot's before committing to that route, and it didn't seem like Chychrun was stoked to be there, but who knows if you back up the brinks truck.

Wrt my comment, I don't mean to imply it's impossible that things would have worked out better with different decisions, including keeping some of these guys, I just mean that the fact that it hasn't worked out isn't evidence it would have worked out had they been kept. Sometimes seems like that's what starts happening over time.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Joseph is very inconsistent. Moving a 3rd to dump him in a vacuum is fine. Especially considering that they needed to make changes to the room, and they didn't have the cap flexibility to do that. It's very clear that there was no market for Joseph.

Whether you want to argue that we didn't take advantage of that cap space, and that Perron, Ullmark, Amadio, and Jensen were not good additions, that is a different discussion.

 

[Micklebot]

I thought the team could have kept Chychrun and traded Chabot. He's a goal scorer from the blueline which the team needs and his defensive problems could have been mitigated with a partner like Jensen. But the big bonus would have been the $3.4 million in cap savings compered to Chabot.

For one year until he needs a new contract, at which point who know how much it will take. You're trading cost certainty at that point.

I also wonder what's going on here. Last year:
Chychrun had 14 goals
Chabot 9 (in 51 games, a 14 goal pace, and
Sanderson had 10 goals

Is our issue we don't have D capable of scoring, or is there something else going on. I'm leaning towards something else is at play here.

 

[DueDiligence]

Chychrun would've ended up costing us $8 million aav as well on his next deal. He was also buttery soft which was frustrating considering how much of a gymrat he is. He didn't need to be delivering Gudas or Zadarov type hits, but he was shockingly bad at using his physical strength on the defensive side of the game.

Chabot isn't the best at using his body to tangle guys up or block passing lanes or anything like that, but Chychrun was so bad at that he makes Chabot look like Volchenkov.

Chychrun was miscast last year but he is a very good offensive Dman. The Sens could use his hammer from the point. Yes he is buttery soft as you say but so is Chabot.

 

[bicboi64]

Chychrun was miscast last year but he is a very good offensive Dman. The Sens could use his hammer from the point. Yes he is buttery soft as you say but so is Chabot.

Chychrun doesn't outscore his physical deficiencies. Chabot ranges from 'good enough' to very good on every aspect of his game relative to Chychrun. He's more rounded than Chychrun and still produces more. Chabot scored at a .59ppg last season, Chychrun at a .5 with the only noticeable difference being he hit double digits in goals. Chabot might be soft, but on a scale of softness, Chychrun is more soft and its baffling considering how much of a fitness beast he is.

We definitely need more goals from our blueline, but from players that can keep up their defensive play while trying to score.

Also, what makes you say Chychrun miscast last year? He was 2nd among D on PP time with 2:34 per game, rarely had to PK, and he had easier minutes comapred to Sandy and Chabot. He was put in the best position to succeed.