GDT: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 3

[bert]

So what wrong doing did Ja Morant do? He wasn't charged. The NBA made no pretense that he broke the law. Heck, the police involvement in the second incident was a welfare check for his own safety.

Are you of the opinion that only criminal acts are "wrong doing"? The players represent the league, the league has standards it's players are expected to uphold, and it they don't uphold those standards, the CBA has mechanisms to allow the league to address it.

Are you serious or just arguing for the sake of it?

Theres no visual proof of anything Batherson did. If there was it would be comparable.

They aren't the same situations if you cant see the difference let's move on.

 

[BondraTime]

I don't really look at +/-, I didn't even know that Brannstrom and Joseph (the only 2 guys that people are trading to create cap space) had the best + on the team

I don't see any evidence that he is "sheltered", it looks more like he was played on a bottom-pairing. He had the same ES TOI as Holden, 1:22 less than Hamonic and 2:18 less than Sanderson. He had 44.9 dZS%

Also, how sheltered can you be when you spent more that 55% of your ES TOI with Holden, Zaitsev and Hamonic? Sounds like the opposite of being sheltered to me. But despite being asked to carry these guys, 67.6% xG% with Hamonic, 56.2 xG% with Holden and 47.7 xG% with Zaitsev. He did more than survive.

I don't know where you took your line combinations numbers but I'm using Dobber's at ES only. That above was for last season. The year before he mostly played (60%) with Zub and Chabot but still 25% with Brown. I could see the "sheltered" argument in 2021-22 (58.4 oZS% too) but he was only 22 y/o and still very NHL inexperienced. In 2020-21, he also spent 50% of his ES TOI with Chabot/Zub but still 38% with Gudbranson (50/50 in ZS)

Hard to draw conclusions with the GA Kucherov, Pastrnak and Tkachuk, it's a very small sample size and could have been due to many various factors... Is it at ES? Was there bad goals given up by the goalie? Who was he playing with? Did anyone else gifted the goal on a silver platter like it has been the Sens specialty the last few years? Etc

I agree that the oZS% helped him out but being paired with Holden/Zaitsev/Hamonic more than 55% of the time offsets that easily. Small sample sizes but when paired with Chychrun (18.2 minutes), he had a 90.9% xG% and 70.8% with Sanderson (32.2 minutes). 58.6 xG% with Zub (131.5 minutes). That looks pretty good

Brannstrom was very sheltered, as most 3rd pairings are.

He got very good zone starts, and very low quality of competition compared every other player on the roster.

He got the lower competition that the bottom pair and bottom 6 got, while being the only one getting extremely favorable zone starts.

 

[Micklebot]

Are you serious or just arguing for the sake of it?

Theres no visual proof of anything Batherson did. If there was it would be comparable.

They aren't the same situations if you cant see the difference let's move on.

Honestly Bert, I have no idea why you feel the need to get so worked up that you go all bold, maybe it's time to take a break.

The point was pretty clear, charges and crimes are not the required standard for a league to hand out a suspension, hence the Morant example since that was the claim I responded to. Leagues can and do act on things they deem to violate the standards they set for the league and those standards don't require an action to elevate to the level of criminal act.

Visual proof is not the only type of proof out there, I have no idea why you're hung up on that. The league has investigated the situation, they will have evidence of what occured, for example text messages and witness testimony of the various players ect, and can choose to act, or not act, based on the results of their investigation and degree of certainty they have base on that evidence, independent of whether the London police press charges. That's all.

The situations don't have to be identical, nor did I ever suggest they were, to illustrate the point i'm making, If you can't see that, they ya, it's time to move on.

 

[Golden_Jet]

So day 1 of the 2023/2024 season and the league does not suspend Batherson or Formenton. The Sens have them in the lineup...

UHHH-HHHUUUHH

Day 2, Michael Andlauer meets with Mayor Sutcliff, NCC members, Provincial MPP, Federal MPPs..the Minister for Sport...What is HER name again. And asks for help with a new arena, for tax breaks, for infrastructure changes to help with the CTC..

Slam Dunk.

Day 3, Rick (Richard if you don't mind) Westhead is doing a piece on TSN.. on rape in sports.... Sportsnet follows. Locally Mendes, Schraeter, Sanchez, Makramella, Boals, et all are doing reports on rape and violence in sports and women sports.

nothing to see here

Day 4, Andlauer meets his accountant... tells him, 15-20 M in loses...OOOOHH f***

Day 5, Andlauer meets Malhotra and York.. "I ain't selling home"... "I ain't selling fruit or Vegetables"......OOOOHH

Day 6, Andlauer calls Gary..."Gary, we done f*** up..We have a Ray Rice on our hands,, We needed to suspend them for weeks, if not months.. " ... Gary's reply. "I just fired our legal adviser, We will hire a special council to look into this.. and they will retroactively issue a suspension...Ray Rice style"

Day 7, The new Sens President, is doing a media blitz falling on his sword and promising to make things right.

The Sens have now been loudly booed for 2 games and Eugene Melnyk is laughing in his grave.

Leagues have learned from Ray Rice.... If for no reason other than to calm the waters, 10-20 game suspensions. And a "anti-violance"/"anti-rape" blitz that we have never seen the likes of before.

Is there a point in there……

 

[Masked]

The point was pretty clear, charges and crimes are not the required standard for a league to hand out a suspension, hence the Morant example since that was the claim I responded to. Leagues can and do act on things they deem to violate the standards they set for the league and those standards don't require an action to elevate to the level of criminal act.

Visual proof is not the only type of proof out there, I have no idea why you're hung up on that. The league has investigated the situation, they will have evidence of what occured, for example text messages and witness testimony of the various players ect, and can choose to act, or not act, based on the results of their investigation and degree of certainty they have base on that evidence, independent of whether the London police press charges. That's all. .

If the NHL is suspending players for wrongdoing in this matter, they are accusing those players of criminal acts. That's a potentially defamatory situation if they've never been charged with any crimes.

Assen na yo!

 

[Micklebot]

If the NHL is suspending players for wrongdoing in this matter, they are accusing those players of criminal acts. That's a potentially defamatory situation if they've never been charged with any crimes.

Assen na yo!

That's quite the assumption, and I don't think its at all true. The league just like most others has a morality clause, these types of clauses are discretionary by nature, and do not require acts to elevate to the level of crimes, though that is the most comment occurrence that will result in the clause being invoked.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I had actually done a quick Google search on the weekend to see if I could find the NHL's player's code of conduct, but could not (I'll admit I didn't try that hard).

Can anyone link the exact text?

 

[Micklebot]

I had actually done a quick Google search on the weekend to see if I could find the NHL's player's code of conduct, but could not (I'll admit I didn't try that hard).

Can anyone link the exact text?

it's in the SPC

(e) to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interest of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally.

Very vague, so lots of leeway for the league to use it, but equal leeway for it to be challenged should they do so.

 

[Xspyrit]

It also absolutely defeats the purpose of bringing in an established 20 goal guy for depth.

Is it the reasoning Dorion used? We got Kubalik because we were in a terrible position and Yzerman wouldn't give us a better piece. Dorion probably insisted on the 1st instead of Berggren but not even sure if Yzerman wanted to part with him. Kasper was almost assuredly a no go from the start and Mazur probably as well. We got Kubalik because DeBrincat took his spot and is major upgrade on him. Detroit paid a 1st (late?), a 4th and a mid prospect for that upgrade.

Kubalik scored 7 of his 20 goals on the PP last season. Who would he play over on the PP?

Tkachuk - Stützle -Tarasenko
Chabot - Chychrun

Giroux - Norris - Batherson
Sanderson - Brannstrom

Greig and Pinto wanting some of the fun too. So even if you don't give Brannstrom some PP (which he is very good at), Pinto and Greig want/need it too.

Did you see one of my posts that shows that Joseph has a better ES scoring rate than Kubalik over the last 2 seasons? I think people might be a bit disappointed by Kubalik this season. I'd much rather do this :

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Tarasenko
Joseph - Norris - Batherson
Greig - Pinto - Giroux
Kelly - Kastelic - MacEwen

Our 4th line sucks but maybe a guy like Smejkal or Crookshank steal a spot from Kelly and the Sens are ok with paying his $775,000 salary to play in the AHL. We don't any a lot of flexibilty to improve that forward group. I think the Top-9 is solid enough, you roll these 3 lines equally at ES

- I can't see anywhere else to play Tarasenko. He needs to score to be useful so his best chance would be with these 2

- Norris and Giroux are by FAR our 2 best 2-way forwards, Norris and Joseph would help Batherson's defensive game a lot, Joseph would be there to forecheck and help the other 2 make plays. he would get his points and rise his trade value. So we could always opt to trade him next off-season if we wanted too but seriously if he gets 30-40 pts at ES for 2.95 AAV on top of his PK work, why would he?

- Giroux would be perfect to mentor Greig and Pinto and make that line an ES threat. If Pinto reaches another level defensively, that line would become a nightmare matchup line quickly.

I again, don't see why scoring is our problem. It's still xG% at ES

 

[Xspyrit]

Or we send Joseph down since he would be a 4th liner here potentially

Gain 1.2 million in cap

Sending Joseph down is not worth it. You'd have to replace his spot by a 775 000$ player at minimum, so you'd save a few hundreds but most likely get much worse, particularly on the PK

Brannstrom was very sheltered, as most 3rd pairings are.

He got very good zone starts, and very low quality of competition compared every other player on the roster.

He got the lower competition that the bottom pair and bottom 6 got, while being the only one getting extremely favorable zone starts.

I'd like to see the QoC when he played with Chychrun/Sanderson/Zub. Of course, if you pair him Holden/Zaitsev/Hamonic, have to be careful to not put them against top liners.

 

[Masked]

That's quite the assumption, and I don't think its at all true. The league just like most others has a morality clause, these types of clauses are discretionary by nature, and do not require acts to elevate to the level of crimes, though that is the most comment occurrence that will result in the clause being invoked.

Either the events in that hotel room were consensual or non-consensual.

If the NHL is suspending players for consensual sex that happened in private, I don't know how they can justify it. Players engaging in group sex is not great for the public image of the league but I suspect a huge part of the league has participated in it. It's a slippery slope to suspend players for consensual bedroom activities.

If they're suspending players for non-consensual sex that's a criminal offence and making that allegation against players would be defamatory if there's no criminal charge to corroborate it.

Assen na yo!

 

[Beech]

Is there a point in there……

good Lord, you are this daft

 

[BondraTime]

Sending Joseph down is not worth it. You'd have to replace his spot by a 775 000$ player at minimum, so you'd save a few hundreds but most likely get much worse, particularly on the PK



I'd like to see the QoC when he played with Chychrun/Sanderson/Zub. Of course, if you pair him Holden/Zaitsev/Hamonic, have to be careful to not put them against top liners.

He saw nearly 200 more minutes with Zub and Chabot than he did Hamonic and Zaitsev, and even then still has higher zone starts and lower QoC than all of them by a pretty significant margin

 

[Micklebot]

Either the events in that hotel room were consensual or non-consensual.

If the NHL is suspending players for consensual sex that happened in private, I don't know how they can justify it. Players engaging in group sex is not great for the public image of the league but I suspect a huge part of the league has participated in it. It's a slippery slope to suspend players for consensual bedroom activities.

If they're suspending players for non-consensual sex that's a criminal offence and making that allegation against players would be defamatory if there's no criminal charge to corroborate it.

Assen na yo!

There are a host of issues that could come up, it's not just whether there was consensual sex that happened that are potentially problematic in terms of the leagues image, portraying what allegedly happened as just a black and white distinction of consentiual sex or non-consentual is problematic in it's own right, even getting past just what happened in the hotel room, they could suspend a player for impeding the investigation if they weren't honest when interviewed.

You may not agree with the league acting on whatever they discover if the sex was consensual (or that determination can't be made one way or another) but they do have the ability to do so, and doing so does not immediately mean they are accusing people of criminal acts.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Is it the reasoning Dorion used? We got Kubalik because we were in a terrible position and Yzerman wouldn't give us a better piece. Dorion probably insisted on the 1st instead of Berggren but not even sure if Yzerman wanted to part with him. Kasper was almost assuredly a no go from the start and Mazur probably as well. We got Kubalik because DeBrincat took his spot and is major upgrade on him. Detroit paid a 1st (late?), a 4th and a mid prospect for that upgrade.

Kubalik scored 7 of his 20 goals on the PP last season. Who would he play over on the PP?

Tkachuk - Stützle -Tarasenko
Chabot - Chychrun

Giroux - Norris - Batherson
Sanderson - Brannstrom

Greig and Pinto wanting some of the fun too. So even if you don't give Brannstrom some PP (which he is very good at), Pinto and Greig want/need it too.

Did you see one of my posts that shows that Joseph has a better ES scoring rate than Kubalik over the last 2 seasons? I think people might be a bit disappointed by Kubalik this season. I'd much rather do this :

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Tarasenko
Joseph - Norris - Batherson
Greig - Pinto - Giroux
Kelly - Kastelic - MacEwen

Our 4th line sucks but maybe a guy like Smejkal or Crookshank steal a spot from Kelly and the Sens are ok with paying his $775,000 salary to play in the AHL. We don't any a lot of flexibilty to improve that forward group. I think the Top-9 is solid enough, you roll these 3 lines equally at ES

- I can't see anywhere else to play Tarasenko. He needs to score to be useful so his best chance would be with these 2

- Norris and Giroux are by FAR our 2 best 2-way forwards, Norris and Joseph would help Batherson's defensive game a lot, Joseph would be there to forecheck and help the other 2 make plays. he would get his points and rise his trade value. So we could always opt to trade him next off-season if we wanted too but seriously if he gets 30-40 pts at ES for 2.95 AAV on top of his PK work, why would he?

- Giroux would be perfect to mentor Greig and Pinto and make that line an ES threat. If Pinto reaches another level defensively, that line would become a nightmare matchup line quickly.

I again, don't see why scoring is our problem. It's still xG% at ES

Still extremely capable of putting the puck in the net though, with an excellent shot that will certainly translate to some serious chances if he's playing with Pinto and Greig. And then, the big win for us is, that when the inevitable happens and a top 6 goes down, you have a legit threat to move up, allowing Greig to continue to get his feet wet on line 3 and hopefully avoiding thrusting him into a position that he's not ready for (ie Pinto last year).

It'll be interesting to see if Kubalick can produce on the 3rd line and with less PP time, but he'll be more of a threat than Joseph could ever be IMO, because his shot is hard and heavy and seems to be very accurate.

 

[Micklebot]

He saw nearly 200 more minutes with Zub and Chabot than he did Hamonic and Zaitsev, and even then still has higher zone starts and lower QoC than all of them by a pretty significant margin

QOC is a bit of an oddball stat, for one, there's no indication of what metric they are using to determine the QOC, is CF? xGF%? TOI%?

Zone starts is funny too, because in his ~313 mins with Hamonic, JBD, Zub and Zaitsev, it's actually fairly low at around 47%, it's his ~220 mins with Chabot, Chychrun, and Sanderson that see it skyrocket to 60+%, then there's the ~440 mins with Holden at his average around 55-56

 

[BondraTime]

QOC is a bit of an oddball stat, for one, there's no indication of what metric they are using to determine the QOC, is CF? xGF%? TOI%?

Zone starts is funny too, because in his ~313 mins with Hamonic, JBD, Zub and Zaitsev, it's actually fairly low at around 47%, it's his ~220 mins with Chabot, Chychrun, and Sanderson that see it skyrocket to 60+%, then there's the ~440 mins with Holden at his average around 55-56

For sure they are all odd stats, I'm only using statistical representations because saying "it's easy to see by watching the games that he's incredibly sheltered" wouldn't go over well or be a very strong backing argument

 

[Cosmix]

Is there an LTIR player on another team that we could trade for in order to generate the cap room required to pay Pinto while retaining the current cap space for a 13th forward?

 

[Xspyrit]

He saw nearly 200 more minutes with Zub and Chabot than he did Hamonic and Zaitsev, and even then still has higher zone starts and lower QoC than all of them by a pretty significant margin

I was grouping Chychrun/Sanderson/Zub together and Holden/Zaitsev/Hamonic together. I know he didn't play with Hamonic and Zaitsev much

My point is that if Brannstrom plays with the subpar D-men, yes he needs to be sheltered. Playing with them is already hard enough

Still extremely capable of putting the puck in the net though, with an excellent shot that will certainly translate to some serious chances if he's playing with Pinto and Greig. And then, the big win for us is, that when the inevitable happens and a top 6 goes down, you have a legit threat to move up, allowing Greig to continue to get his feet wet on line 3 and hopefully avoiding thrusting him into a position that he's not ready for (ie Pinto last year).

It'll be interesting to see if Kubalick can produce on the 3rd line and with less PP time, but he'll be more of a threat than Joseph could ever be IMO, because his shot is hard and heavy and seems to be very accurate.

I'd like to be in a situation where we could just afford to have Kubalik but it's not the case. It's either we get a pick for what is a rental (we should invest in ONE good forward replacing Tarasenko next season, we wont be able to afford both Kubalik and another good forward as Pinto and Sanderson will need extensions) OR we spend an asset or two moving Joseph's contract (which isn't dramatic at all) but in the current cap crunch, he becomes a cap dump. Just has to bounce back a little and he won't be a cap dump next off-season as the cap rises

The thing is Joseph wouldn't have been overpaid based on his 2021-22 season, 30 ES + PK points in 69 games is very good considering he's defensive forward and PK expert.

The way I see it is Tarasenko's signing makes Kubalik a bit redundant. He takes his spot on the PP and replaces him as an offensive support player. We have well enough players who can put the puck in the net... Stutzle, Norris, Tkachuk, Batherson, Tarasenko and Giroux can all score more than 25 goals if healthy. Stutzle and Norris can both put 40+. Tkachuk and Giroux scored 35 each last season. Then you have Pinto and Greig who have offensive talent. And on top of it, Chabot, Chychrun and Sanderson who could score their share of goals.

Of course, Kubalik would be a nice luxury to have in case of injuries but considering the dead cap and some other things like having 3 top pairing D-men, it's a luxury I'm afraid we can't afford

So yes Kubalik is more a threat to score goals but outside of PP and off-the-rush, doesn't offer much. Joseph can make plays, be great on the forecheck and the PK and be responsible defensively. If all things were equal, I wouldn't mind keeping Kubalik over Joseph but :

- PP TOI will be hard to share enough
- Kubalik will need a new contract (significant raise if he puts some numbers)
- Kubalik returns an asset, Joseph costs an asset to move

 

[JD1]

They definitely won't act before the London police do. it wouldn't play well if they went with no action, or very light action, only to see the police press charges. The league can wait for more evidence to come out with an indictment with minimal risk. What they shouldn't do is sweep everything under the rug exclusively because charges aren't laid. If they have appropriate evidence and justification to suspend or fine players for violations of the leagues standards, or rules, then they should be enforcing those rules. If they don't have evidence, then they should act accordingly.

What standards? Does the league have standards for aĺleged sexual misconduct that doesn't lead to charges?

I don't think the league does anything unless the police do something first. And the nhl report is private. Almost guaranteed if there are no charges the league releases a statement saying "nothing to see here, move along folks" and they're most likely hoping beyond hope that's how it plays out.

 

[BigRig4]

Is there an LTIR player on another team that we could trade for in order to generate the cap room required to pay Pinto while retaining the current cap space for a 13th forward?

I believe adding a player who's already on LTIR is net zero in terms of cap. You get relief from their salary but you don't gain additional space.

 

[BigRig4]

What standards? Does the league have standards for aĺleged sexual misconduct that doesn't lead to charges?

I don't think the league does anything unless the police do something first. And the nhl report is private. Almost guaranteed if there are no charges the league releases a statement saying "nothing to see here, move along folks" and they're most likely hoping beyond hope that's how it plays out.

I generally agree with the sentiment, but the NHL might have no choice if camp starts before the report comes out. Dressing the players who then get potentially charged a month into the season would be a PR nightmare. They're going to be between a rock and hard place for sure.

 

[JD1]

That's quite the assumption, and I don't think its at all true. The league just like most others has a morality clause, these types of clauses are discretionary by nature, and do not require acts to elevate to the level of crimes, though that is the most comment occurrence that will result in the clause being invoked.

What morality will they have broken if not charged?

 

[BigRig4]

What morality will they have broken if not charged?

I'm not making a judgement either way on what did or didn't happen, but the fact there was a civil suit and criminal investigation will be grounds to suspend. The player conduct policy is purposely written in a very broad manner so as to give the commissioner unilateral power to suspend for anything that makes the league look bad. I think we're past the point of wondering whether suspensions are coming.

 

[Micklebot]

What morality will they have broken if not charged?

Seriously? Are you suggesting morality starts and ends with criminal charges? I haven't seen the NHL's investigation, without that Im not about to start speculating