Free Agency and Trade Thread: Off-season alive and well ... for some!

[LaPlante94]

Many of the kind of players you point out can't get paid any more than they do because of NHL rules, its a measure of can't as opposed to won't. Now you may rather Johnsson playout a full season before giving him a longer deal, and that's fine, but can you really say that Babcock, a notorious lover of his GUD PROS, pulling Komarov in the playoffs, in favor of Johnsson shows that Johnsson has proved nothing with regards to him being an NHL calibre player, because that's what I've gotten from all you guys.

Everyone on these boards know Johnsson is an NHL player. That's not what we're talking about here though. You really think someone who has played 9 NHL games deserves a contract for 2-4 mil? I don't remember the numbers you were throwing out there but I think it was around that range. That's crazy and won't happen and probably never will.

 

[Boutette]

Everyone on these boards know Johnsson is an NHL player. That's not what we're talking about here though. You really think someone who has played 9 NHL games deserves a contract for 2-4 mil? I don't remember the numbers you were throwing out there but I think it was around that range. That's crazy and won't happen and probably never will.

I suggested 2.5 mil for 4 years. And if he craps out after 2 years, he could be bought out for a pittance (since he will be under 26). There is a risk that he won't do well, but if he does really well, we won't have a Cap problem with him for 4 years, and can spend cap to improve the team over the intervening years where the team desperately needs improvement, *defense* and secondarily center. not on the wing. If he does really well next year, or the year after that on a 1 or 2 year contract, cap will become an issue, since we will likely be spending a lot. People seem to have forgotten that there are a bunch of other RFAs who will be getting huge raises over the next couple years. Unlike other people, I'm actually thinking about the team as a whole, not just individual players. IE, what if we do get Tavares and Johnsson is a 50 pt player on his wing, can we afford another $5 mil winger in 2 years when we have 2 $10 million dollar centers down the middle. Kapesh? 4 years becomes a cushion where other players may have come and gone. Yeah, its a million a year than we have to pay for the next 2 years, but its still a low cost and provides 4 years worth of security during a tricky period, like Hyman's/Browns/Kadri's/Reilly's.

 

[Menzinger]

Even if Johnsson puts up like 40ish points next year on a one year deal, he won’t get more than 2-2.5 million on the next contract after that one.

 

[Boutette]

Even if Johnsson puts up like 40ish points next year on a one year deal, he won’t get more than 2-2.5 million on the next contract after that one.

Johnsson will be *arbitration* eligible on his next contract (since he will be 24+), RFA or not. Another thing people here seem to like to pretend doesn't happen. So tell me, when he goes into arbitration after getting 40+ points next year, or maybe 50+ the year after that how to you imagine he will only get a Hyman level contract? Yet another reason to lock him up for longer than just a year or two now.

 

[Boutette]

He doesn't have a lot of leverage though being an RFA, it probably isn't in his best interests having that extra year tacked on but he may be forced to eat it and wait until he's in a better negotiating position

Saying all that it may make sense for us to only offer one year if we think he's going to be good, if he's only proven for 1 year that could bring down the AAV on that second deal

You are aware that he's eligible for arbitration after this year, right? Just one year. That kind of throws a kink into your *no leverage* situation. Look what Hyman got after just a 28 point season. What do you think would happen after a 40+ point season from Johnsson who could become a fixture not just on the PK, but the PP as well? Brown wasn't arbitration eligible, that's why his 20 goals didn't get him as much as it will Johnsson.

In fact, a lot of the Leafs prospects are older, meaning they are going to hit arbitration a lot sooner after their first contract than the MNM, meaning yeah, many of them will quickly gain the leverage you think they and Johnnson lack. So Dubas and his people are going to have to play this all very smart in order to manage the team's secondary players salaries.

 

[Voodoo Child]

I would absolutely give Kappy and Johnny each 2x3 right now.

Are we really going to be pissed if we don't win the cup within 3 years? I can see some people growing impatient (the same I see doing it already - not specifically anyone here, but friends, family etc.,). Dubas and Shanny and whoever they bring in knows the 'plan' is building a team that's a contender for 7-12 years, and we've already obtained most of the hardest to get pieces.

But you need to have good cheap depth. Guys like Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown and Hyman.

Not only that, how do we know they are what they'll be? Maybe Kapanen exceeds all expectations and becomes a 70 point player...and maybe not, but maybe in 2 or 3 years we draft a guy in the 3rd round who becomes a 70 point player? Those guys are great insulation until he's ready.

If were close and we need a piece, it's those guys you offer up.

I'm hoping we've solidified our D by then and I assume we probably will have, but strange trades happen all the time...

What if one day say a guy that can put a great team over the top, like Cam Fowler is on the block? Or Jaden Schwartz? Or Viktor Arvidsson? Or Matthias Ekholm? Or and so on?

If guys like Kappy and Johnsson can become eventually a centerpiece player in a deal like that, which I think is possible, and they're on good deals, you pull the trigger.

I have to think, given the Kane extension that Tavares is staying on the Island, I'm sure we'll pitch if nothing is confirmed soon (suppose, after the finals), but it doesn't look likely anymore. Even giving these deals, we still have cap to sign who we need to.

I think Leivo is out this summer, maybe in a package, maybe for a pick (maybe a low 3rd), maybe for a prospect. The offense is there but I don't think he skates well enough for Babcock's liking.

 

[Kiwi]

You are aware that he's eligible for arbitration after this year, right? Just one year. That kind of throws a kink into your *no leverage* situation. Look what Hyman got after just a 28 point season. What do you think would happen after a 40+ point season from Johnsson who could become a fixture not just on the PK, but the PP as well? Brown wasn't arbitration eligible, that's why his 20 goals didn't get him as much as it will Johnsson.

In fact, a lot of the Leafs prospects are older, meaning they are going to hit arbitration a lot sooner after their first contract than the MNM, meaning yeah, many of them will quickly gain the leverage you think they and Johnnson lack. So Dubas and his people are going to have to play this all very smart in order to manage the team's secondary players salaries.

Unless he gets arbitration this off-season he's completely ******

He's not going to sit out an entire year instead of taking a 2 year bridge and if he does i wish him the best of luck because he's going to need it after doing something that stupid

 

[Americanadian]

Do you think that Marleau deserves 19 million for two seasons of 40+ point production? That is what may happen.

This is a flawless comparison, Johnsson has 5 career points (including playoffs), Marleau had scored 5+ points in the playoffs 10 times when he signed that contract (11 now). They deserve to be paid similarly.

 

[showtime8]

Do you think that Marleau deserves 19 million for two seasons of 40+ point production? That is what may happen.

Marleau and Johnsson aren't even in the same breath.

Personally, I think that Marleau deserves his contract. You're not paying strictly for the 47 point season and 27 goal season. You're also getting his 200 foot game, tireless work ethic, leadership and ability to play anywhere in the line-up.

I'm not saying that to diminish Johnsson's value or what he can bring to the table. But 1 player has played over 1500 games in the NHL & over 1100 points (regular season only). And the other has 3 points and 9 games.

 

[4thline]

Okay, you've crossed the line. You've been reported. Its one thing to attack my suggestions. Its another thing to 'quote' and then rewrite the text you are quoting. That demands an immediate apology and removal of that post.

Oh man it's always good to start a day off with a laugh.
It's actually a commonly used, efficient, and effective (if a bit sarcastic) rebuttal technique on online message boards.

You clearly don't tip your waiters since you don't see the point of paying more for your dinners than the absolute minimum you have to. Hyman is also UFA at the end of his contract (which he too signed after exhausting his ELC). As are many players who get resigned during their UFA year. I guess the leafs don't appreciate him either.

As for this- the "absolute minimum" that we could pay is an 790k qualifying offer year one followed by a ~830k QO (with arbitration risk) year two. I'd be in favour of a near 100% premium. The in house precedent (Leivo), got two years at 612k. 150% premium.

Zach Hyman:
A- has a June Birthday and was 25 for june 30th at he end of his contract, meaning that the 4 year deal bought 2 UFA years and took him to age 29. Not to mention had a full year of nhl experience.
B- Being an older, more proven and less skilled player means that there's a better chance that"he is what he is", making the likely difference between his 2nd and 3rd contracts relatively small (better chance of keeping him as a UFA

Johnsson- will be 23 on June 30 of the signing year, meaning that a 4 year deal will take him to age 27 and buy zero UFA years. Younger, less proven, higher upside, more to gain from getting a contract controlling UFA years

 

[rumman]

Kasperi Kapanen for Philippe Myers, let's get it done

I want Philippe Myers badly, but I'm not trading the main piece in getting rid of Kessel for a undrafted player who's still a project in the making. Especially when Kappy is just proving he can be a dominant force. Leafs have plenty of assets that might intrigue Hextall besides Kappy imo.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

1. A trade for Jacob Trouba, centered around Connor Brown +
2. Sign John Tavares
3. Sign Antoine Roussel
4. Acquire Nick Ritchie from Anaheim centered around Prospect/pick

Hyman-Mathews-Nylander
Marleau-Tavares-Marner
Ritchie-Kadri-Kapanen
Roussel-Aaltonen-Johnsson

Rielly-Trouba
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Hainsey

Anderson

You'd need a big "plus" on top of Brown to land Trouba. Identifying what the plus would actually be would be the key element in determining whether this proposal is feasible (or even remotely possible).

 

[Fogelhund]

You'd need a big "plus" on top of Brown to land Trouba. Identifying what the plus would actually be would be the key element in determining whether this proposal is feasible (or even remotely possible).

Indeed... like Nylander, Lily, Dermott, our first.... Why do people think we will get nice things for nothing?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Indeed... like Nylander, Lily, Dermott, our first.... Why do people think we will get nice things for nothing?

Agreed. Over the last 2 years we've witnessed numerous trade proposals for top 4 defenders when all that was being offered was some combination of soon-to-be UFAs, 2nd rounders and B prospects. Obviously, those kind of trades never came to fruition for very obvious reasons. If we want something of value (i.e., a good player), we'll need to offer something of real value, not a bunch of lesser assets and spare bits. It would be nice if all these other GMs were as dumb as some people think, but that's not realistic.

 

[meefer]

Now that Lou is heading up the Islanders, might we work something around Sparks/Pikard/McElhinney and Matt Martin after his bonus has been paid, for the rights to negotiate with De Haan before FA opens up + maybe a 4th?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Now that Lou is heading up the Islanders, might we work something around Sparks/Pikard/McElhinney and Matt Martin after his bonus has been paid, for the rights to negotiate with De Haan before FA opens up + maybe a 4th?

His bonus is paid on July 1st. De Haan wouldn't have rights anymore. Besides, they are worthless.

Matt Martin + a goalie for an AHL vet forward and a pick is fine by me though.

 

[Boutette]

Marleau and Johnsson aren't even in the same breath.

Personally, I think that Marleau deserves his contract. You're not paying strictly for the 47 point season and 27 goal season. You're also getting his 200 foot game, tireless work ethic, leadership and ability to play anywhere in the line-up.

I'm not saying that to diminish Johnsson's value or what he can bring to the table. But 1 player has played over 1500 games in the NHL & over 1100 points (regular season only). And the other has 3 points and 9 games.

This is a flawless comparison, Johnsson has 5 career points (including playoffs), Marleau had scored 5+ points in the playoffs 10 times when he signed that contract (11 now). They deserve to be paid similarly.

These are both profoundly stupid reactions that totally ignore the context I brought up. Congratulation!

 

[Menzinger]

Now that Lou is heading up the Islanders, might we work something around Sparks/Pikard/McElhinney and Matt Martin after his bonus has been paid, for the rights to negotiate with De Haan before FA opens up + maybe a 4th?

I can see him having interest in Martin - it was his original signing, and if the islanders are in line for a retool he may want him as a vet he knows for their 4th line.

Don’t think the Leafs would get anything of value him though. At best the Islanders take him for free or an AHL contract

 

[Boutette]

Oh man it's always good to start a day off with a laugh.
It's actually a commonly used, efficient, and effective (if a bit sarcastic) rebuttal technique on online message boards.


As for this- the "absolute minimum" that we could pay is an 790k qualifying offer year one followed by a ~830k QO (with arbitration risk) year two. I'd be in favour of a near 100% premium. The in house precedent (Leivo), got two years at 612k. 150% premium.

Zach Hyman:
A- has a June Birthday and was 25 for june 30th at he end of his contract, meaning that the 4 year deal bought 2 UFA years and took him to age 29. Not to mention had a full year of nhl experience.
B- Being an older, more proven and less skilled player means that there's a better chance that"he is what he is", making the likely difference between his 2nd and 3rd contracts relatively small (better chance of keeping him as a UFA

Johnsson- will be 23 on June 30 of the signing year, meaning that a 4 year deal will take him to age 27 and buy zero UFA years. Younger, less proven, higher upside, more to gain from getting a contract controlling UFA years

Point one, it a sign of raving control-freak and paints you in a really unflattering light. Being incapable of recognizing that fact demonstrates that you are one.

Again, while you do bother to admit arbitration exists now, you totally dismiss the significance of it. Many players today get pre-arbitration payouts that are similar to what they'd get as a UFA on the open market.

 

[Boutette]

Unless he gets arbitration this off-season he's completely ******

He's not going to sit out an entire year instead of taking a 2 year bridge and if he does i wish him the best of luck because he's going to need it after doing something that stupid

Well that came completely out of left field.

 

[4thline]

Point one, it a sign of raving control-freak and paints you in a really unflattering light. Being incapable of recognizing that fact demonstrates that you are one.

Again, while you do bother to admit arbitration exists now, you totally dismiss the significance of it. Many players today get pre-arbitration payouts that are similar to what they'd get as a UFA on the open market.

Lol do explain. It's a way to save key strokes, nothing more. It's reasonably common on here, to the best of my knowledge not against the rules, and certainly not some grievous offence worthy of a tantrum.

Arbitration is why I much prefer a 2 or 3 year to a 1 and would be in favour of paying slight premium to get those years. 2&3 @ <1.8 = Good. 1 <1.2= meh, will get non trivial raise in pinch year, 4= bad, gifted UFA, 5+ unrealistic.

Also way to completely ignore the massive difference in situations between Hyman and Johnsson coming of their elcs

 

[ottomaddox]

Next week will be the start of all the rumblings: The Draft, Trades, Hirings, and July 1st.

Can't wait. It's going to be a huge offseason for TOR.

 

[Boutette]

Lol do explain. It's a way to save key strokes, nothing more. It's reasonably common on here, to the best of my knowledge not against the rules, and certainly not some grievous offence worthy of a tantrum.

Arbitration is why I much prefer a 2 or 3 year to a 1 and would be in favour of paying slight premium to get those years. 2&3 @ <1.8 = Good. 1 <1.2= meh, will get non trivial raise in pinch year, 4= bad, gifted UFA, 5+ unrealistic.

Also way to completely ignore the massive difference in situations between Hyman and Johnsson coming of their elcs

Your now warming to 3 years. Your getting there.

The difference between Hyman and Johnsson? Let's see. Hyman is a year older. He managed a decent if unspectacular first year in the AHL, and produces a majorly underwhelming first year in the NHL in a role he was handed on a silver platter by his coach (which almost everyone complained about, you know the whole 'Babcock's son thing) and granted a contract which most people considered an overpayment. Frankly, guys who produce 28 points while playing on a teams 1st line aren't the ones realistically looking to score ++++++ as a UFA, are they, so buying up a couple of UFA years really wasn't that much of a big deal (considering many people on this site think he's a bottom sixer at best).

Johnsson, on the other had been totally dominating the AHL in his second season and was finally called up after Matthews was injured and continued playing once Komarov was injured. He was handed *nothing*, instead *earning* Komarov's spot by outperforming one of Babcock's favorite GUD PROS in the *playoffs*. Returning for the Calder cup playoffs, he's dominating the *best players in the AHL* and is poised to lead the Marlies to the Calder Cup championship.

Your right, there is a massive difference between Hyman and Johnsson. But its actually the other way around to what you are thinking, and his upcoming contract should reflect that, because leading your team to the Calder Cup championship while scoring almost 2PPG in the playoffs as an AHL sophomore is a very interesting counterpart to managing just 28 points playing alongside what many consider a generational talent and the best Center the Leafs have had since Sundin. Its certainly worthy of conversation, not pedantic mockery. Is Hyman a leader? Is Johnsson?

But sure, I could live with Johnsson getting $2.25x3. Arbitration settlements create uncertainty however, as you well know, and bad feelings. In fact, given how unhappy Athenasiou has been with Detroit, he might be a target for the Leafs this offseason for exactly that reason.

 

[Boutette]

Has anyone had much of a chance to see how Chris DiDomenico has played in his return to NA. He's a free agent as well, and might be worth adding as another depth center for a bargain. He's had a good career in Europe, and it looked like he did OK in his short stint in Ottawa and has been killing it for Rockford in the playoffs in the same way Johnsson has been doing it for the Marlies (Sadly Rockford looks like its done, so we won't see him in the finals). Anyone think he'd be worth a flier? Does he have the speed to keep up with our youngsters. Could he be good as AHL/13th forward-extra center depth for next year?

 

[ottomaddox]

Your now warming to 3 years. Your getting there.

The difference between Hyman and Johnsson? Let's see. Hyman is a year older. He managed a decent if unspectacular first year in the AHL, and produces a majorly underwhelming first year in the NHL in a role he was handed on a silver platter by his coach (which almost everyone complained about, you know the whole 'Babcock's son thing) and granted a contract which most people considered an overpayment. Frankly, guys who produce 28 points while playing on a teams 1st line aren't the ones realistically looking to score ++++++ as a UFA, are they, so buying up a couple of UFA years really wasn't that much of a stretch.

Johnsson, on the other had been totally dominating the AHL in his second season and was finally called up after Matthews was injured and continued playing once Komarov was injured. He was handed *nothing*, instead *earning* Komarov's spot by outperforming one of Babcock's favorite GUD PROS in the *playoffs*. Returning for the Calder cup playoffs, he's dominating the *best players in the AHL* and is poised to lead the Marlies to the Calder Cup championship.

Your right, there is a massive difference between Hyman and Johnsson. But its actually the other way around to what you are thinking, and his upcoming contract should reflect that, because leading your team to the Calder Cup championship while scoring almost 2PPG in the playoffs as an AHL sophomore is a very interesting counterpart to managing just 28 points playing alongside what many consider a generational talent and the best Center the Leafs have had since Sundin. Its certainly worthy of conversation, not pedantic mockery.

But sure, I could live with Johnsson getting $2.25x3. Arbitration settlements create uncertainty however, as you well know, and bad feelings. In fact, given how unhappy Athenasiou has been with Detroit, he might be a target for the Leafs this offseason for exactly that reason.

If what you're saying is true about Johnsson then shouldn't he have been in the NHL a long time ago?

What did you see in him that I missed in his short time as a leaf (regular season and playoffs)?