Player Discussion Frank Vatrano

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
54,800
34,185
Long Beach, CA
This is sports, its a business. Its not the girl scouts. Look at football. Everyone gets moved if you dont peform. You move pieces to win, not sit on players while you are last in the league

Thats the problem with you guys. Value our players too much, much more than they are worth. Silf, flower, gib should all have been moved the year when cogs was traded

You have a team located in prime california to attract players. Thats what you have going for you.


You answered your own question. We are the worst team in the league. You sell the guy whos high.
The NFL is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the NHL. No guaranteed contracts, completely different player control, no minor league, and no crop of a couple thousand players available every year. The average NFL career is the length of an ELC. NFL players are disposable product.

“Prime California” has never been a draw. The taxes are super high, the ability to make money endorsing products locally is non-existent, and bad teams don’t pull UFA’s period without overpayment.

It has nothing to do with overvaluing our players. It has everything to do with realizing that there are no good rebuilds without veteran leadership. This is also a market that won’t survive a Buffalo rebuild.
 

bracer028

Registered User
Apr 18, 2018
1,031
354
The NFL is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the NHL. No guaranteed contracts, completely different player control, no minor league, and no crop of a couple thousand players available every year. The average NFL career is the length of an ELC. NFL players are disposable product.

“Prime California” has never been a draw. The taxes are super high, the ability to make money endorsing products locally is non-existent, and bad teams don’t pull UFA’s period without overpayment.

It has nothing to do with overvaluing our players. It has everything to do with realizing that there are no good rebuilds without veteran leadership. This is also a market that won’t survive a Buffalo rebuild.
If we cared about veteran leadership, we should have kept desaulliers but we didnt
 

Rybread86

To the DOME
Mar 24, 2022
2,466
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OC
You move Vatrano if someone wants to give you a crazy good haul. But he's the exact type of player Beeker wants on this team. He's skilled, tough, a pest and he really wants to be here. You want a guy like him to rub off on your prospects. His attitude and style is exactly what the team needs and that alone holds value
 

FlyingV09

Registered User
Jun 15, 2009
855
776
Alberta, Canada
You move Vatrano if someone wants to give you a crazy good haul. But he's the exact type of player Beeker wants on this team. He's skilled, tough, a pest and he really wants to be here. You want a guy like him to rub off on your prospects. His attitude and style is exactly what the team needs and that alone holds value
I agree with this. The only thing I’d add is he provides something this team badly needs which is goal scoring.
 

Kalv

Slava Ukraini
Mar 29, 2009
24,256
12,313
Latvia
Hate repeating myself, Vatrano is the type of guy you keep. He's scores goals, he's passionate, he cares about winning, he cares about the team, and isn't backing down.

It is unlikely he will be a big part of next contention cycle due to age (I doubt he'll be as effective at around 35), but he's exactly the type of player to bridge that gap and help young team grow.
While I agree on the most part, he's also on ice for the most goals against, behind only Cam (McTavish is 3rd, Strome 4th).

I love his energy and passion, but he's pretty much the worst defensive player by this ranking (Cam plays much more). He has been on oce for 44 EV goals for and 64 against this season. More than one a game.

If a good deal comes around, I won't blame Pat
 
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CrazyDuck4u

Registered User
Oct 14, 2006
7,295
4,408
I fking Respect Vatrano so much after reading that article.. Dude has everything.. Scoring, PestSide...Hitting. Speed.. You gotta extend him if there are no crazy offers..
 
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70sSanO

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Apr 21, 2015
2,613
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This is sports, its a business. Its not the girl scouts. Look at football. Everyone gets moved if you dont peform. You move pieces to win, not sit on players while you are last in the league

Thats the problem with you guys. Value our players too much, much more than they are worth. Silf, flower, gib should all have been moved the year when cogs was traded

You have a team located in prime california to attract players. Thats what you have going for you.


You answered your own question. We are the worst team in the league. You sell the guy whos high. Whats the point of having him on a team thats the worst in the league?
Did you read this before you posted it.

Was your everyone gets moved apply to Vatrano getting moved for not performing?

Bringing up things that should have been done 5 years ago doesn’t really apply.

SoCal is not the destination for many players. The Ducks have not been able to bring in the top players. Every year we miss the big names. Whether mgmt, or location, or the team itself, we have always missed out. Neidermayer came for his brother.

There is no buy low for the Ducks. There will hopefully be a much better team next year. But I don’t think Anaheim we will ever be the destination Tampa was for their cup competing years. I hope I’m wrong.

John
 

Hollel

Registered User
Jun 15, 2019
227
396
thank god none of you are GMs. you sell high, buy low. Vatrano is HIGH right now to a team needing to make the final push for the playoffs.

He doesn't fit the timeline.

You sell him.
Lmao. I get it but this is a player with term who wants to be here and is performing. That’s a big deal. This isn’t fantasy hockey where there’s zero effect on locker room chemistry and human emotions. There’s upside to what you’re suggesting. There’s also the chance that your little armchair gm experiment has you over seeing the next Buffalo sabres style decade of darkness. The ducks have plenty of futures at the moment, and Vatrano will have plenty of value as a UFA at next deadline if need be
 

Vipers31

Advanced Stagnostic
Aug 29, 2008
20,421
2,273
Cologne, Germany
I’m torn on the idea of taking Frankie now. It’s great that he’s outspoken about wanting to be here, and he’s certainly rewarded the Ducks for signing him. I wouldn’t doubt that he’s a positive influence in the room, either. That said, this is a career year for him, and there is a very solid chance his value is at an all-time high. It comes down to what’s being offered - I don’t think you ship him out for just a late 1st round pick and minor additions, but something around a high upside young NHL player could be interesting and worth it. We can be content keeping him around and see how next year goes and get a sense for whether his love for the Ducks and Anaheim results in him being willing to take an extension that leaves plenty ability to deal with extensions of the young core and further needed complimentary additions. But at the same time: if his numbers take a step back next year and he’s starting to lean towards testing the market, getting roughly a 1st rounder less than we would right now would be a wasted chance to move the rebuild ahead. There’s a decent case to be made for either side of the gamble, so for me it just comes down to any potential return. It’ If I had to bet, I’d expect him to not end up moving this week.
 
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bracer028

Registered User
Apr 18, 2018
1,031
354
The NFL is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the NHL. No guaranteed contracts, completely different player control, no minor league, and no crop of a couple thousand players available every year. The average NFL career is the length of an ELC. NFL players are disposable product.

“Prime California” has never been a draw. The taxes are super high, the ability to make money endorsing products locally is non-existent, and bad teams don’t pull UFA’s period without overpayment.

It has nothing to do with overvaluing our players. It has everything to do with realizing that there are no good rebuilds without veteran leadership. This is also a market that won’t survive a Buffalo rebuild.
Ok. Lets not talk about the NFL. Lets use the NBA for instance

1. The pool in the NBA is as small, if not smaller than the NHL with only 2 round drafts.
2. People are on guarantee contracts
3. NBA careers are akin to that of an NHLer.
4. They pay equal amount of games
5. Now lets look at OKC. A very undesirable place to play in, as much as southern california as you put it. They dumped ALL of their vets, Steven Adams, Westbrook, Paul George, CP3, and accumulated 5 first round draft picks. Now they are on top of the charts. That is a successful rebuild. When you become successful like that, ring chasing vets will come play for you, which makes your team desirable to play for.

Lmao. I get it but this is a player with term who wants to be here and is performing. That’s a big deal. This isn’t fantasy hockey where there’s zero effect on locker room chemistry and human emotions. There’s upside to what you’re suggesting. There’s also the chance that your little armchair gm experiment has you over seeing the next Buffalo sabres style decade of darkness. The ducks have plenty of futures at the moment, and Vatrano will have plenty of value as a UFA at next deadline if need be
He is such a stellar player that we are now leading the league (on the wrong side). If all you cared about is emotions, Kariya, Selanne, would not have been traded (let me guess, your next argument is Kariya wanted to leave). They would have found a way for them to stay in those years. Lets look at it more recently, we wouldn't have gotten rid of drysdale.
 

bracer028

Registered User
Apr 18, 2018
1,031
354
Did you read this before you posted it.

Was your everyone gets moved apply to Vatrano getting moved for not performing?

Bringing up things that should have been done 5 years ago doesn’t really apply.

SoCal is not the destination for many players. The Ducks have not been able to bring in the top players. Every year we miss the big names. Whether mgmt, or location, or the team itself, we have always missed out. Neidermayer came for his brother.

There is no buy low for the Ducks. There will hopefully be a much better team next year. But I don’t think Anaheim we will ever be the destination Tampa was for their cup competing years. I hope I’m wrong.

John
Because we don't win. Period. We hold onto players for absolutely no reason. We kept Flower, Silf, Henrique, gibson during their PRIME, and we were still on the bottom of the list. If we had dumped them sooner, we could have been 3 years ahead. When you win, people want to come.

its not like Kessler came here for fun. He saw that we were competing with Getz and perry and there was that window of opportunity.
 

190Octane

Registered User
Jun 28, 2002
8,964
1,614
Fullerton, CA
The worst team in the league to competing for the first round in the playoffs is a dream.

I do hoe cutter does that for us though
This team isn’t nearly as bad as the record indicates and they definitely aren’t the worst team in the league, if they hadn’t had injuries to key players they would probably be a few points higher up in the standings.

Competing for a playoff spot next year isn’t a dream when you consider that Cronin and the younger players will all have another year of experience, there will hopefully be some upgrades in the off-season, and hopefully they get a coach who can run a freaking power play.
 
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70sSanO

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Apr 21, 2015
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Mission Viejo, CA
It is pretty funny to finally have a player we are underpaying, and wants to be here, to see people want to ship him out.

For all the piles he ends up in for his size, he just keeps going like the energizer bunny. With Vatrano the glass is not half full or half empty; glass is just not a part of his dna. Wish we had a few more like him.

John
 

Hollel

Registered User
Jun 15, 2019
227
396
He is such a stellar player that we are now leading the league (on the wrong side). If all you cared about is emotions, Kariya, Selanne, would not have been traded (let me guess, your next argument is Kariya wanted to leave). They would have found a way for them to stay in those years. Let’s look at it more recently, we wouldn't have gotten rid of drysdale.
What?? I thought it would go without saying, but those aren’t concrete rules to follow. Yes, bad teams can have good players lol. Yes, teams can move on from beloved players if they deem it necessary. Your Drysdale example is perfect of this…the Ducks couldn’t turn down a game changing power forward prospect for their undersized and oft injured young dman, regardless of relationships in the room.

No one here is suggesting the Ducks turn down some can’t miss prospect package for Vatrano either. But a team like NYR offering a 2025 late 1st and a c prospect for example likely isn’t worth the trouble
 

Firequacker

used wall of text! It's not very effective...
Jun 3, 2022
389
776
Ok. Lets not talk about the NFL. Lets use the NBA for instance

1. The pool in the NBA is as small, if not smaller than the NHL with only 2 round drafts.
2. People are on guarantee contracts
3. NBA careers are akin to that of an NHLer.
4. They pay equal amount of games
5. Now lets look at OKC. A very undesirable place to play in, as much as southern california as you put it. They dumped ALL of their vets, Steven Adams, Westbrook, Paul George, CP3, and accumulated 5 first round draft picks. Now they are on top of the charts. That is a successful rebuild. When you become successful like that, ring chasing vets will come play for you, which makes your team desirable to play for.
This is somehow even more meaningless than the NFL comparison. In the NBA one or two guys can carry a team. In the NHL, ask Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl how well that works. That alone makes rebuilds function differently, not to mention that the drafting and development curve is different.

He is such a stellar player that we are now leading the league (on the wrong side). If all you cared about is emotions, Kariya, Selanne, would not have been traded (let me guess, your next argument is Kariya wanted to leave). They would have found a way for them to stay in those years. Lets look at it more recently, we wouldn't have gotten rid of drysdale.
Well, the argument that Kariya wanted to leave would be a pretty valid one, considering he never was traded. He bolted in free agency right after going to game seven of the SCF, it was a whole thing.
Also, arguing that emotions and chemistry are an important factor in roster building decisions is very different than saying "all you care about" is emotions. This isn't a video game. It is, as you point out, a business. A billions of dollars business. How many billion dollar businesses don't have an HR department? Same principle.

Furthermore, the "well we're bad with him now therefore he isn't important to the team" argument is nonsense. First: it can always get worse, as last season proved. Second: why doesn't this principle apply to everyone? We were the worst team in the league last year with Troy Terry, obviously he's not helping and we should have traded him rather than re-signing him, right? Two time all star who was still an RFA, imagine the value! In fact, let's get rid of all the young guys. Zegras and McTavish don't have us at the top of the league in the three years it's taken OKC to rebuild, time to blow it all up! (What's that, McTavish hasn't played three years yet? Oh, his first year we played him a few games and sent him back to juniors? Oh, in hockey that's totally unremarkable, even for a 3OA? I wonder how often that happens in the NBA, and whether it makes rebuilding any different. Hmmm.)
But no, this argument only ever seems to apply to veteran players, and of course it only applies to the good ones. We'd much rather have the team's future core learning from five million dollar paperweight Stroke than from Vatrano, right? That's how you build a successful team culture, you only keep the mediocre overpaid guys who don't have trade value! Sounds great.

At some point, you have to actually commit to building something, rather than just pushing everything forward for more and more assets. This is a hockey team, not a Ponzi scheme. And a successful NHL team does, in fact, have to weigh human factors rather than just mindlessly following "buy low, sell high!" as the be-all end-all. Vatrano should not be going anywhere this year unless it's for something similar to the Drysdale trade: an even more high-value piece for the future, not empty dice roll assets for the sake of assets.

Vatrano for captain!!! There I said it!!
Now I want this just for the sheer hilarity.
 

Gliff

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It is pretty funny to finally have a player we are underpaying, and wants to be here, to see people want to ship him out.

For all the piles he ends up in for his size, he just keeps going like the energizer bunny. With Vatrano the glass is not half full or half empty; glass is just not a part of his dna. Wish we had a few more like him.

John
Here are the facts:
  • He turns 30 years old in 9 days.
  • He is signed for 1 more year after this.
  • He is shooting over 15%.
  • He is second in TOI among Ducks forwards.
  • He leads the forwards in EV GA and is -20 in EV GD
He is a 3rd liner getting a premium opportunity on a bad team. He is not a 30 goal guy on a team even battling for a playoff spot, let alone a team trying to win a cup. Time and time again these players who have a good season around age 30 get a super overpriced contract from a team that thinks he is the final piece.

He wants to be here because he is getting premium opportunity and it is his best opportunity for a hinge payday next summer.

I'm not saying the Ducks should look to trade him, and I dont think anyone is here, but if someone wants to come massively overpay then you take it. If he REALLY wants to be here (so much that the team is supposed to ignore value and just keep him) then he can come back next summer on a team friendly deal.
 

JAHV

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Here are the facts:
  • He turns 30 years old in 9 days.
  • He is signed for 1 more year after this.
  • He is shooting over 15%.
  • He is second in TOI among Ducks forwards.
  • He leads the forwards in EV GA and is -20 in EV GD
He is a 3rd liner getting a premium opportunity on a bad team. He is not a 30 goal guy on a team even battling for a playoff spot, let alone a team trying to win a cup. Time and time again these players who have a good season around age 30 get a super overpriced contract from a team that thinks he is the final piece.

He wants to be here because he is getting premium opportunity and it is his best opportunity for a hinge payday next summer.

I'm not saying the Ducks should look to trade him, and I dont think anyone is here, but if someone wants to come massively overpay then you take it. If he REALLY wants to be here (so much that the team is supposed to ignore value and just keep him) then he can come back next summer on a team friendly deal.
He might give the team a friendly deal on an extension, which I would take if I were the Ducks. Here was his quote to Stephens:

“I want to be a Duck for a long time,” the three-time 20-goal scorer told The Athletic. “I want to be a part of the solution here. I want to help these young guys grow. I want to do what veterans have done for me in the past. Help those guys grow. I’m happy here. My wife’s happy here. We have a baby here and we love it here. This is our second home.

“Those things are out of my control. But I want to be a Duck and be here as long as possible.”

Yes, this is a business and if Verbeek gets overwhelmed with an offer, he should take it. But this franchise has been short on leadership for a few seasons now, and a veteran who works hard and wants to be here has value beyond what he produces on the ice. I think that raises the bar for what Verbeek should accept in trade.
 

70sSanO

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Apr 21, 2015
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Mission Viejo, CA
He’s not the final piece. He is a needed piece right now. Unless we are going to be way overpaid, we would be foolish to move him.

Sure, give me a 6’2” 25 year old 25 goal scorer for him and bye bye Frank. But we’re not going to get that.

For $3.6m, there are more than a few teams that are lamenting not signing him.

People are so scared that we will miss out on maximizing his value.

John
 

Gliff

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He might give the team a friendly deal on an extension, which I would take if I were the Ducks. Here was his quote to Stephens:



Yes, this is a business and if Verbeek gets overwhelmed with an offer, he should take it. But this franchise has been short on leadership for a few seasons now, and a veteran who works hard and wants to be here has value beyond what he produces on the ice. I think that raises the bar for what Verbeek should accept in trade.
He said all the right things, but he didnt say he was going to take a team friendly deal in order to stay here, because he wont.

If he finishes the year with 35 goals and 60 points, then has another 30ish goal season next year, someone is going to pay him like he is the final piece. The Ducks should be nowhere near that deal.

If they can sign him to another 3 year deal similar to what he has now then I will welcome him back with open arms.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Jul 25, 2003
19,318
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southern cal
Because we don't win. Period. We hold onto players for absolutely no reason. We kept Flower, Silf, Henrique, gibson during their PRIME, and we were still on the bottom of the list. If we had dumped them sooner, we could have been 3 years ahead. When you win, people want to come.

its not like Kessler came here for fun. He saw that we were competing with Getz and perry and there was that window of opportunity.

You missed the part where we changed GM's. Therein lies the misnomer of, "we could have been 3 years ahead."

  • Recap of Rebuild and Reset Rebuild
    • 2018-19
      • TDL Start of rebuild
      • Finished 8th worst , drafted 9th: C Zegras
    • 2019-20
      • More culling at TDL
      • Finished 5th, drafted 6th: D Drysdale
    • 2020-21
      • Rookie debuts: Zegras and Drysdale
      • Vet waived: C Rico
      • Finished 2nd, drafted 3rd: C McTavish
    • 2021-22
      • Mostly healthy to start the season
      • New PP coaches: Ward and Brown
      • New PK coach: Stothers
      • GM Murray stepped down during 8-game win streak.
      • All-star break: Ducks' 3rd in Pacific with a record of 23-16-8 (54%) 👍
      • New GM Verbeek at All-star break.
      • TDL: blew up the team; Reset Rebuild started ⬅️
      • TDL losses: D Lindholm, D Manson, RW Rakell, LW Des /list]
        • Finished 10th, drafted 10th: LD Mintyukov
      • 2022-23
        • Vets added: Strome, Vatrano, Klingberg, Kulikov, Beaulieu
        • More culling at TDL
        • Finished 1st, drfated 2nd: C Carlsson
      • 2023-24
        • Vets added: Killorn, Gudas, Lyubushkin
        • TDL: Lyubushkin gone, others TBD
        • Current standing: 3rd worst

    Because Murray kept many veterans, the rebuild went from 2nd worst finish in 2020-21 to surging to 3rd in the Pacific at the All-star break.

    2021-22 season, full stats.png


    Top-5 scorers: One rookie in Zegras.
    Top-10 scorers: Two rookies in Zegras and Drysdale.

    This means there were a lot of vets carrying that team to 3rd in the Pacific. Now, look at vet Ds Lindholm and Manson's +/- rating. Compare their ratings to the rest of the club and we see just how valuable both were defensively. Even veteran forwards Rico, Silf, and Rakell weren't that dismal defensively. Keeping vets during a rebuild helps to keep the youth afloat as our rookies had the highest negative +/- rating in Zegras (-21 rating) and Drysdale (-26 rating).

    The 2021-22 team's problem was the lack of overall talent depth b/c once injuries started happening, we didn't have proper substitutions. This was made worse when Murray stepped down in early Nov and we had no GM to make any NHL moves until Verbeek came along in February. Even when Verbeek came onboard, he sat on his hands when Manson was placed on IR during All-star break. Adding more talent to this group during the off-season probably increases the chances of becoming a playoff team, especially when it would also add McTavish full time.

    Seattle and New Jersey added talents in the off-season via FA or trade that helped both teams become playoff teams for the 2022-23 season. That could have been the Ducks' fate.

    Unfortunately, the new GM, Verbeek, had other plans. In resetting the rebuild, the plan to be relevant again is pushed back years. The problem with Verbeek is his pro acquisitions over the past two off-seasons haven't been all great. Gudas is the only acquisition that has been good from start and healthy. With inevitable losses of Rico and Silf, the Ducks are losing veteran forwards who are defensively aware.

    2023-24, Stats after 61 games.png


    Rico, Silf, Lundy, Gudas, and Vaak are the only ones in the top-20 scoring that have positive +/- ratings. If GM Verbeek doesn't replace Rico and Silf's defensive talents, then it's going to be tough sledding for us next year with our forward grouping. We don't even know if we'll keep Lundy.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
54,800
34,185
Long Beach, CA
Here are the facts:
  • He turns 30 years old in 9 days.
  • He is signed for 1 more year after this.
  • He is shooting over 15%.
  • He is second in TOI among Ducks forwards.
  • He leads the forwards in EV GA and is -20 in EV GD
He is a 3rd liner getting a premium opportunity on a bad team. He is not a 30 goal guy on a team even battling for a playoff spot, let alone a team trying to win a cup. Time and time again these players who have a good season around age 30 get a super overpriced contract from a team that thinks he is the final piece.

He wants to be here because he is getting premium opportunity and it is his best opportunity for a hinge payday next summer.

I'm not saying the Ducks should look to trade him, and I dont think anyone is here, but if someone wants to come massively overpay then you take it. If he REALLY wants to be here (so much that the team is supposed to ignore value and just keep him) then he can come back next summer on a team friendly deal.
The TOI is a little misleading - he's actually 6th amongst forwards in TOI/G at 13:45, and while he’s 4th in PPTOI/G (3rd if you pull out Zegras’ 2:51), he's only at 2:28, which isn't really PP1 time (there are 8 forwards clustered between 2:11 and 2:30). His totals are high because he’s not getting injured like the rest of the top 6, he’s actually getting played middle 6 minutes. It’s also interesting that his shooting percentages have gone up drastically the two times he’s been traded mid-season, which is likely a statistical anomaly but could just be him playing super motivated.

He’s not really getting premium ice time though, hes just being utilized in all circumstances, whereas most of the other forwards play PK OR PP. He’d be gettin 2-3 fewer shifts on a typical 3rd line, thats not gamebreakingly different.

I’m not saying he shouldn’t be traded for the RIGHT return, but to me that’s not a late 1st and a B prospect, it’s a young player that can be in the NHL next year and producing within 2. Trading him for magic beans that will statistically never make the NHL, annd will take 3-5 years to know if you get a giant beanstalk or just some sprouts, isn’t worth what his production and attitude will being next year with hopefully healthy kids to start instilling some winning into the franchise. He can still be re-signed at a team friendly rate or traded for magic beans next year, which, even if fewer in number, are probably not much different in their help for the immediate future will be.
 
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Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
54,800
34,185
Long Beach, CA
He said all the right things, but he didnt say he was going to take a team friendly deal in order to stay here, because he wont.

If he finishes the year with 35 goals and 60 points, then has another 30ish goal season next year, someone is going to pay him like he is the final piece. The Ducks should be nowhere near that deal.

If they can sign him to another 3 year deal similar to what he has now then I will welcome him back with open arms.
If he manages that, we are still getting a nice return for him next year, however..
 
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