Former Ducks - (2023-24 Season Edition )

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Quack Shot

Registered User
Nov 14, 2010
4,649
2,176
SoCal
Do people just not remember how many more games we played than other teams in 2022? Our point percentage sucked. For instance, on 2/5 Calgary was 4th 3 points behind in the division, but they had only played 42 games where we played 48.

Our success was a facade and Verbeek saw through it. We need to get over it.
 

190Octane

Registered User
Jun 28, 2002
8,935
1,574
Fullerton, CA
Do people just not remember how many more games we played than other teams in 2022? Our point percentage sucked. For instance, on 2/5 Calgary was 4th 3 points behind in the division, but they had only played 42 games where we played 48.

Our success was a facade and Verbeek saw through it. We need to get over it.
Some people just hate Verbeek and/or have obsessions with Eakins being a mid coach instead of one of the worst in the league.
 

Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
19,045
14,255
southern cal
Do people just not remember how many more games we played than other teams in 2022? Our point percentage sucked. For instance, on 2/5 Calgary was 4th 3 points behind in the division, but they had only played 42 games where we played 48.

Our success was a facade and Verbeek saw through it. We need to get over it.

Oh my the narratives on this omission is like Verbeek being happy finishing 1 point more than last year's team. I'm sure I can trust your agenda on this.

Where did the Ducks finish in 2020-21? With the 2nd worst record.

Let's use your Feb All-Star break snapshot:

2021-22 season, All-Star Break.png


Now, let's look at the TDL Pacific Division record:

2021-22 season, TDL record.png


Anaheim was only 4 points out of 3rd place (a 51.6% Pts share). And that's without Manson for 12 out of the past 14 games because Verbeek sat on his hands knowing full well Manson was on put on IR during All-star break.

The TDL record above proves what Eakins did wasn't fake and proves how the team took significant steps to pushing for a playoff spot in Year 3 of the Murray rebuild. I guess all you AGENDA bemoaning posters can't get over that fact.

We were in Year 3 of the Murray rebuild and we just got Manson back from IR before the TDL. Anaheim was ready to take the next step forward next season by addressing better talent depth for the team. But Verbeek decided to blow up the team at the TDL:

Now, who knows where this goes after this season? Eakins’ deal will be up. But at the very least, Verbeek wanted to take the time to further get to know his coach before making any decisions.
“It’s not fair … me coming in two, three months and then going with a new guy,” Verbeek said. “And in the sense that I just blew up the team (at the trade deadline). So I wanted to give him a chance. And it gave us an opportunity to get to know one another over the course of the offseason.

Hence, Verbeek reset the rebuild as we were pushing for the playoffs in 2021-22. Anaheim's record after the TDL in 2021-22: 4-12-4 (12 pts), a 30.0% Pts share.

Record
2021-22, Eakins: 31-37-14 (76 pts)
2022-23, Eakins: 23-47-12 (58 pts)
2023-24, Cronin: 27-50-5 (59 pts)


Ducks
SeasonES GFES GAESGDPP GFPK GAShorties.GFGAGD
2021-22Eakins
232​
271​
-39​
48​
43​
6​
286​
314​
-28​
2022-23Eakins
172​
260​
-88​
36​
78​
1​
209​
338​
-129​
2023-24Cronin
151​
204​
-53​
42​
91​
11​
204​
295​
-91​

We can see Cronin had the better roster compared to the 2022-23 roster with a better GD and ES GA production. With such a huge improvement, Cronin couldn't figure out how to win more points. The defensive roster was much better in depth that it was better at GA and ES GA than 2021-22 overall, but Cronin still couldn't figure out how to win more points.

Laugh and omit all you like about Eakins, but Cronin proved he was worse than Eakins this past season while having a much better roster. I'll can always stick with the facts b/c facts don't lie over time.
 

ScarTroy

Registered User
Sponsor
May 24, 2012
3,299
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Corona, CA
We can see Cronin had the better roster compared to the 2022-23 roster with a better GD and ES GA production. With such a huge improvement, Cronin couldn't figure out how to win more points. The defensive roster was much better in depth that it was better at GA and ES GA than 2021-22 overall, but Cronin still couldn't figure out how to win more points.

Laugh and omit all you like about Eakins, but Cronin proved he was worse than Eakins this past season while having a much better roster. I'll can always stick with the facts b/c facts don't lie over time.
Once again I’ll ask, what was our record with an actual healthy lineup? What did our record look like when we had all of Zegras, Carlsson, Mac, Terry, and the improved defense? You keep talking about this improved roster as if Cronin actually had the opportunity to use it.
 
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Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
19,045
14,255
southern cal
Once again I’ll ask, what was our record with an actual healthy lineup? What did our record look like when we had all of Zegras, Carlsson, Mac, Terry, and the improved defense? You keep talking about this improved roster as if Cronin actually had the opportunity to use it.

Once again, the previous two seasons had the Ducks been hit with a multitude of injuries. Because last year's team was a far weaker roster, any injuries to that group would adversely affect it than the Cronin roster.

2022-23 Injury Viz
Injury Viz, 2022-23 (82 games).png


2023-24 Injury Viz
Injury Viz, 2023-24 (80 games).png


  • Additions to the 2023-24 Roster
    • Forward
      • LW Killorn
        C Carlsson
    • Defense
      • RD Gudas
        RD Lybushkin
        RD Luneau
        RD Lindstrom
        LD Mintyukov
        LD/RD LaCombe
        LD/RD Zellweger
        LD Hagg
        LD Lagesson
        a healthy Vaak finally displays talent above fringe AHL'er.

This means we added talent to our top-6 from last year and expanding it to eight players with the addition of Killorn and Carlsson. And what makes it equally fair is that Rico was injured just before last year's TDL. Rico played 62 games last year with us and 60 games this year with us.

For the Blue line, a huge influx of players that included more natural RD's, LD's that can play RD, physical players, and pushed down players we had last year to the AHL in White and Harrington as well as pushed down Hagg to the AHL unless a call-up was needed.

When Drysdale fell to injury this year, we found a solution where there was none last year. It was such a solution that we traded Drysdale away for a top scoring prospect, #5 in the 2020 draft in LW Cutter Gauthier.

Let's get into the numbers, shall we?

2022-23Top-6talents
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Zegras
1​
81​
23​
42​
65​
Terry
1​
70​
23​
38​
61​
Mac
1​
80​
17​
26​
43​
Vatrano
1​
81​
22​
19​
41​
Strome
1​
82​
15​
26​
41​
Rico
1​
62​
22​
16​
38​
Totals
6​
456​
122​
167​
289​


2023-24Top-6Talents
2023-24
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Vatrano
1​
82​
37​
23​
60​
Terry
1​
76​
20​
34​
54​
Mac
1​
64​
19​
23​
42​
Rico
1​
60​
18​
24​
42​
Strome
1​
79​
11​
30​
41​
Killorn
1​
63​
18​
18​
36​
Carlsson
1​
55​
12​
17​
29​
Zegras
1​
31​
6​
9​
15​
Totals
8​
510​
141​
178​
319​

Gravy. Now that we have factual data, we can compare the two units. It appears as though the Cronin roster (2023-24) had two more top-6 talents, played 54 more games, scored 19 more goals, added an additional 11 assists, and put up 30 more points scored than the Eakins unit (2022-23). The Cronin group absorbed injuries at forward to where it still was more productive that the top-6 talents from the Eakins unit.

Let's go deeper into the numbers, now that we see our top-6 talents were more productive than Eakins group, what do we have?

Ducks
SeasonCoachES GFES GAESGDPP GFPK GAShorties.GFGAGD
2022-23Eakins
172​
260​
-88​
36​
78​
1​
209​
338​
-129​
2023-24Cronin
151​
204​
-53​
42​
91​
11​
204​
295​
-91​
24 comp
-21​
56​
36​
6​
-13​
10​
-5​
-43​
38​

Cronin's roster vastly improved the Goal Differential (GD), but only managed to earn one more point than Eakins' unit?! Cronin's unit scored five fewer goals for (GF), but reduced the GA by 43 goals! Yet you whine and complain about missing players??? If Eakins had Cronin's defensive roster, then Eakins would have clearly earn many more points!

Look at that ES GF column. Remember, Cronin's top-6 unit (8 players total) outscored Eakins' top-6 unit. This is probably why GM Verbeek stated he wanted more scoring out of his bottom-6. Which doesn't make sense b/c you want your stars to carry the team instead of depending on your bottom-6 for wins.

One would believe that with a better defense, then that team should be the better team in 1-goal games. Let's re-discover (I say this b/c this becomes the umpteenth time I've shared this damned table):

2022-231-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 818223471258
35.4%​
1-goal games331471240
60.6%​
Non 1-g games49940018
18.4%​


2023-241-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 8282
27​
50​
5​
59​
36.0%​
1-goal games30
13​
12​
5​
31​
51.7%​
Non 1-g games52
14​
38​
0​
28​
26.9%​

Apparently, the no-defense Eakins team was the better team at 1-goal games.

We can stop whining about injuries, especially if you actually take into account the injuries the 2022-23 team incurred. One coach knew how to claw and scratch, but the other just blamed the players b/c he doesn't know what else to do.

But if you're really on this bullshit trip about having talent on the team, then let's look at the 2021-22 team.

2021-22
DateEventGPWLOTLPtsPts PctPacific Rank
10-Nov​
GM Murray resigns
14​
7​
4​
3​
17​
0.607​
3rd
3-Feb​
GM Verbeek hired
48​
23​
16​
9​
55​
0.573​
3rd
14-Mar​
TDL
62​
27​
25​
10​
64​
0.516​
6th; 4 points from 3rd
30-Apr​
End of Season
82​
31​
37​
14​
76​
0.463​
7th; 23 points from 3rd

So you mean if Eakins is given a good roster that he can produce? And when Verbeek sat on his hands when Manson was put on IR during all-star break to miss 12 out of 14 games, the Ducks were still treading above .500 play. At the TDL, Verbeek admitted to blowing up the team and we see why there was a huge drop away from 3rd place in the Pacific.

It's a damn good thing historical facts aren't distorted by emotions.
 
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ScarTroy

Registered User
Sponsor
May 24, 2012
3,299
3,125
Corona, CA
Once again, the previous two seasons had the Ducks been hit with a multitude of injuries. Because last year's team was a far weaker roster, any injuries to that group would adversely affect it than the Cronin roster.

2022-23 Injury Viz
View attachment 866858

2023-24 Injury Viz
View attachment 866860

  • Additions to the 2023-24 Roster
    • Forward
      • LW Killorn
        C Carlsson
    • Defense
      • RD Gudas
        RD Lybushkin
        RD Luneau
        RD Lindstrom
        LD Mintyukov
        LD/RD LaCombe
        LD/RD Zellweger
        LD Hagg
        LD Lagesson
        a healthy Vaak finally displays talent above fringe AHL'er.

This means we added talent to our top-6 from last year and expanding it to eight players with the addition of Killorn and Carlsson. And what makes it equally fair is that Rico was injured just before last year's TDL. Rico played 62 games last year with us and 60 games this year with us.

For the Blue line, a huge influx of players that included more natural RD's, LD's that can play RD, physical players, and pushed down players we had last year to the AHL in White and Harrington as well as pushed down Hagg to the AHL unless a call-up was needed.

When Drysdale fell to injury this year, we found a solution where there was none last year. It was such a solution that we traded Drysdale away for a top scoring prospect, #5 in the 2020 draft in LW Cutter Gauthier.

Let's get into the numbers, shall we?

2022-23Top-6talents
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Zegras
1​
81​
23​
42​
65​
Terry
1​
70​
23​
38​
61​
Mac
1​
80​
17​
26​
43​
Vatrano
1​
81​
22​
19​
41​
Strome
1​
82​
15​
26​
41​
Rico
1​
62​
22​
16​
38​
Totals
6​
456​
122​
167​
289​


2023-24Top-6Talents
2023-24
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Vatrano
1​
82​
37​
23​
60​
Terry
1​
76​
20​
34​
54​
Mac
1​
64​
19​
23​
42​
Rico
1​
60​
18​
24​
42​
Strome
1​
79​
11​
30​
41​
Killorn
1​
63​
18​
18​
36​
Carlsson
1​
55​
12​
17​
29​
Zegras
1​
31​
6​
9​
15​
Totals
8​
510​
141​
178​
319​

Gravy. Now that we have factual data, we can compare the two units. It appears as though the Cronin roster (2023-24) had two more top-6 talents, played 54 more games, scored 19 more goals, added an additional 11 assists, and put up 30 more points scored than the Eakins unit (2022-23). The Cronin group absorbed injuries at forward to where it still was more productive that the top-6 talents from the Eakins unit.

Let's go deeper into the numbers, now that we see our top-6 talents were more productive than Eakins group, what do we have?

Ducks
SeasonCoachES GFES GAESGDPP GFPK GAShorties.GFGAGD
2022-23Eakins
172​
260​
-88​
36​
78​
1​
209​
338​
-129​
2023-24Cronin
151​
204​
-53​
42​
91​
11​
204​
295​
-91​
24 comp
-21​
56​
36​
6​
-13​
10​
-5​
-43​
38​

Cronin's roster vastly improved the Goal Differential (GD), but only managed to earn one more point than Eakins' unit?! Cronin's unit scored five fewer goals for (GF), but reduced the GA by 43 goals! Yet you whine and complain about missing players??? If Eakins had Cronin's defensive roster, then Eakins would have clearly earn many more points!

Look at that ES GF column. Remember, Cronin's top-6 unit (8 players total) outscored Eakins' top-6 unit. This is probably why GM Verbeek stated he wanted more scoring out of his bottom-6. Which doesn't make sense b/c you want your stars to carry the team instead of depending on your bottom-6 for wins.

One would believe that with a better defense, then that team should be the better team in 1-goal games. Let's re-discover (I say this b/c this becomes the umpteenth time I've shared this damned table):

2022-231-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 818223471258
35.4%​
1-goal games331471240
60.6%​
Non 1-g games49940018
18.4%​


2023-241-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 8282
27​
50​
5​
59​
36.0%​
1-goal games30
13​
12​
5​
31​
51.7%​
Non 1-g games52
14​
38​
0​
28​
26.9%​

Apparently, the no-defense Eakins team was the better team at 1-goal games.

We can stop whining about injuries, especially if you actually take into account the injuries the 2022-23 team incurred. One coach knew how to claw and scratch, but the other just blamed the players b/c he doesn't know what else to do.

But if you're really on this bullshit trip about having talent on the team, then let's look at the 2021-22 team.

2021-22
DateEventGPWLOTLPtsPts PctPacific Rank
10-Nov​
GM Murray resigns
14​
7​
4​
3​
17​
0.607​
3rd
3-Feb​
GM Verbeek hired
48​
23​
16​
9​
55​
0.573​
3rd
14-Mar​
TDL
62​
27​
25​
10​
64​
0.516​
6th; 4 points from 3rd
30-Apr​
End of Season
82​
31​
37​
14​
76​
0.463​
7th; 23 points from 3rd

So you mean if Eakins is given a good roster that he can produce? And when Verbeek sat on his hands when Manson was put on IR during all-star break to miss 12 out of 14 games, the Ducks were still treading above .500 play. At the TDL, Verbeek admitted to blowing up the team and we see why there was a huge drop away from 3rd place in the Pacific.

It's a damn good thing historical facts aren't distorted by emotions.
All that not to answer my question. Wonderful.
 
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Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
19,045
14,255
southern cal
All that not to answer my question. Wonderful.

Yup... emotional poster avoiding actual facts to compensate their feelings about being only 1 point better despite having +38 goal differential.

Remind me to never answer your questions when you aren't looking for answers b/c you're stuck on agenda.
 

ScarTroy

Registered User
Sponsor
May 24, 2012
3,299
3,125
Corona, CA
Yup... emotional poster avoiding actual facts to compensate their feelings about being only 1 point better despite having +38 goal differential.

Remind me to never answer your questions when you aren't looking for answers b/c you're stuck on agenda.
You didn’t answer it. I generally like your posts so don’t take it wrong, but just because you write a wall of text deflecting from my question doesn’t mean you answered it.
 

Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
19,045
14,255
southern cal
You didn’t answer it. I generally like your posts so don’t take it wrong, but just because you write a wall of text deflecting from my question doesn’t mean you answered it.

It's answered, but you don't like the answer b/c your agenda doesn't want it to be the answer. That's why you don't want to read any of it b/c I remove all excuses that you want to make.

This year's team is a +38 goal differential and your damned excuses is injuries while omitting the 2022-23 group had a mass amount of injuries as well.

But, hey, keep on deflecting b/c you don't like the answer. pfft.
 

ScarTroy

Registered User
Sponsor
May 24, 2012
3,299
3,125
Corona, CA
It's answered, but you don't like the answer b/c your agenda doesn't want it to be the answer. That's why you don't want to read any of it b/c I remove all excuses that you want to make.

This year's team is a +38 goal differential and your damned excuses is injuries while omitting the 2022-23 group had a mass amount of injuries as well.

But, hey, keep on deflecting b/c you don't like the answer. pfft.
What was our record with a healthy lineup. That’s my question. I didn’t ask shit about how Eakins did before Verbeek took over, and I didn’t ask shit about how Eakins team whose most man games lost consisting of Vaaks, Drysdale and f***ing Grant should be compared to Cronin missing Zegras, Mac, Carlsson, Killorn for 20+ games. And that’s with Terry getting the cold sweats every time he hears a baby cry this season. They aren’t comparable.

Where Cronin actually was able to utilize an upgraded roster, he blew Eakins out of the f***ing water, and that was GA. The fact you somehow keep trying to twist that into a positive for Eakins is mind boggling. And please never bring up 21-22 again, we don’t f***ing care the team was blown up on Eakins, he’s never done a thing in the NHL worthy of a new GM who didn’t hire him to give him the benefit of the doubt and not take the team in their direction, regardless of what they said to appease the fans when they took over.

I like you bud, but I think you’re way off base.
 

Firequacker

used wall of text! It's not very effective...
Jun 3, 2022
337
679
Screw it, I'm sick and have nothing better to do, I want to talk about facts too.
Screenshot_20230812-233329.jpg

Once again, the previous two seasons had the Ducks been hit with a multitude of injuries. Because last year's team was a far weaker roster, any injuries to that group would adversely affect it than the Cronin roster.

2022-23 Injury Viz
View attachment 866858

2023-24 Injury Viz
View attachment 866860

  • Additions to the 2023-24 Roster
    • Forward
      • LW Killorn
        C Carlsson
    • Defense
      • RD Gudas
        RD Lybushkin
        RD Luneau
        RD Lindstrom
        LD Mintyukov
        LD/RD LaCombe
        LD/RD Zellweger
        LD Hagg
        LD Lagesson
        a healthy Vaak finally displays talent above fringe AHL'er.

This means we added talent to our top-6 from last year and expanding it to eight players with the addition of Killorn and Carlsson. And what makes it equally fair is that Rico was injured just before last year's TDL. Rico played 62 games last year with us and 60 games this year with us.

For the Blue line, a huge influx of players that included more natural RD's, LD's that can play RD, physical players, and pushed down players we had last year to the AHL in White and Harrington as well as pushed down Hagg to the AHL unless a call-up was needed.

When Drysdale fell to injury this year, we found a solution where there was none last year. It was such a solution that we traded Drysdale away for a top scoring prospect, #5 in the 2020 draft in LW Cutter Gauthier.

Let's get into the numbers, shall we?

2022-23Top-6talents
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Zegras
1​
81​
23​
42​
65​
Terry
1​
70​
23​
38​
61​
Mac
1​
80​
17​
26​
43​
Vatrano
1​
81​
22​
19​
41​
Strome
1​
82​
15​
26​
41​
Rico
1​
62​
22​
16​
38​
Totals
6​
456​
122​
167​
289​


2023-24Top-6Talents
2023-24
PlayerForwardGPGAPts
Vatrano
1​
82​
37​
23​
60​
Terry
1​
76​
20​
34​
54​
Mac
1​
64​
19​
23​
42​
Rico
1​
60​
18​
24​
42​
Strome
1​
79​
11​
30​
41​
Killorn
1​
63​
18​
18​
36​
Carlsson
1​
55​
12​
17​
29​
Zegras
1​
31​
6​
9​
15​
Totals
8​
510​
141​
178​
319​

Gravy. Now that we have factual data, we can compare the two units. It appears as though the Cronin roster (2023-24) had two more top-6 talents, played 54 more games, scored 19 more goals, added an additional 11 assists, and put up 30 more points scored than the Eakins unit (2022-23). The Cronin group absorbed injuries at forward to where it still was more productive that the top-6 talents from the Eakins unit.

Let's go deeper into the numbers, now that we see our top-6 talents were more productive than Eakins group, what do we have?

Ducks
SeasonCoachES GFES GAESGDPP GFPK GAShorties.GFGAGD
2022-23Eakins
172​
260​
-88​
36​
78​
1​
209​
338​
-129​
2023-24Cronin
151​
204​
-53​
42​
91​
11​
204​
295​
-91​
24 comp
-21​
56​
36​
6​
-13​
10​
-5​
-43​
38​

Cronin's roster vastly improved the Goal Differential (GD), but only managed to earn one more point than Eakins' unit?! Cronin's unit scored five fewer goals for (GF), but reduced the GA by 43 goals! Yet you whine and complain about missing players??? If Eakins had Cronin's defensive roster, then Eakins would have clearly earn many more points!

Look at that ES GF column. Remember, Cronin's top-6 unit (8 players total) outscored Eakins' top-6 unit. This is probably why GM Verbeek stated he wanted more scoring out of his bottom-6. Which doesn't make sense b/c you want your stars to carry the team instead of depending on your bottom-6 for wins.

One would believe that with a better defense, then that team should be the better team in 1-goal games. Let's re-discover (I say this b/c this becomes the umpteenth time I've shared this damned table):

2022-231-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 818223471258
35.4%​
1-goal games331471240
60.6%​
Non 1-g games49940018
18.4%​


2023-241-goalgames
Type of GamesGamesWLOTLPtsPoint Share
Game 1 to 8282
27​
50​
5​
59​
36.0%​
1-goal games30
13​
12​
5​
31​
51.7%​
Non 1-g games52
14​
38​
0​
28​
26.9%​

Apparently, the no-defense Eakins team was the better team at 1-goal games.

We can stop whining about injuries, especially if you actually take into account the injuries the 2022-23 team incurred. One coach knew how to claw and scratch, but the other just blamed the players b/c he doesn't know what else to do.

But if you're really on this bullshit trip about having talent on the team, then let's look at the 2021-22 team.

2021-22
DateEventGPWLOTLPtsPts PctPacific Rank
10-Nov​
GM Murray resigns
14​
7​
4​
3​
17​
0.607​
3rd
3-Feb​
GM Verbeek hired
48​
23​
16​
9​
55​
0.573​
3rd
14-Mar​
TDL
62​
27​
25​
10​
64​
0.516​
6th; 4 points from 3rd
30-Apr​
End of Season
82​
31​
37​
14​
76​
0.463​
7th; 23 points from 3rd

So you mean if Eakins is given a good roster that he can produce? And when Verbeek sat on his hands when Manson was put on IR during all-star break to miss 12 out of 14 games, the Ducks were still treading above .500 play. At the TDL, Verbeek admitted to blowing up the team and we see why there was a huge drop away from 3rd place in the Pacific.

It's a damn good thing historical facts aren't distorted by emotions.
The thing about facts is, statistics can only tell you what, they can't tell you why. You post the stats, then you come up with a narrative that could explain the stats, which is fine, that's analysis. But then you declare that narrative to be just as much objective fact as the stats. That's not how it works.
There are so many erroneous leaps of logic in here. You've shared that one goal game table umpteen times, yes, and it still doesn't prove what you want us to believe it does. "One would believe that with a better defense, then that team should be the better team in 1-goal games." No, one would not necessarily believe that, it's an assumption. One might even say it's based on feelings. You might feel that the improved defense should lead to better one goal game performance, but those things don't necessarily correlate (especially with a team that, as you showed, performs worse on offense). Teams being great at pouring it on when they're ahead and/or surging back in a doomed effort, but bad in tight high pressure games, is a tale as old as sports and can happen for many reasons. Could it be on the coaching? Absolutely. Does posting the win-loss statistics and point shares prove it was on the coaching? Absolutely not. There are too many other factors.

Similarly, a core component of your depth argument (that the injuries last season were more impactful because the roster had less talent) is based on feelings rather than facts. So is saying that Eakins would have done better with this year's roster. You haven't engaged deeply enough with the reams of statistics you post to claim you've proved the first point. The second is purely hypothetical and cannot ever be objectively proven (or, to be fair, disproven).
It's right there in your own stats. Look at the Injury Viz charts again, last season's injuries are fairly well distributed over the positions while this season it's almost all blue. That doesn't seem relevant to you when you look at this year's stats? The defense was vastly improved and was able to absorb its relatively few losses, and the GA improved accordingly. The forwards, despite an improved top six on paper, were gutted by injury and had pathetic bottom six support, and lo and behold the GF was bad.

The analysis of the forwards got very, very long.
The main thing is the difference in quality of players lost. I'm one of the biggest Grant fans you'll find, but pretending losing him for half the season is remotely comparable to losing Zegras is absurd. And that's basically what it comes down to. If you analyze the situations instead of just posting the charts:
-One significant injury last season had no equivalent this season. Stolarz was replaced by Dostal, who performed slightly better. If anything that injury hurt the Gulls.
-While it's not directly equivalent, Vaakanainen last year and Gudas and Mintyukov this year can all be grouped together under the category of "nobody is arguing that this year's defense wasn't better". If you want to argue that a healthy Vaaks was the sole difference between last season being a tank defense and a functional NHL defense, go for it, but barring that? It's not the debate. Nobody who bemoans the injuries this season is talking about the defense (they might get to them after listing all the forwards). The exception is Drysdale, since even with the improved depth, top pairing RD became a whole thing. This was especially true of injury discussions before he was traded.
-But it turns out losing Drysdale each season was a wash. Same with Henrique, as you've stipulated. (If anything Drysdale hit harder this year, because specifically 'guys who can play top pairing RD' depth was slim. Fowler-Kulikov, Fowler-Harrington, and Fowler-Klingberg all had better GA/60 and GF/60 than Fowler-LaCombe and Fowler-Zellweger. To be fair they also all had better GA/60 than this season's Fowler-Drysdale, though the sample size is an issue. But the real difference in the defense this year was that the other two pairings also had NHL players on them.)
-Terry's minor injuries were a wash. His regression this year, while not an injury, certainly had an impact on the top six Cronin could utilize. Was it babygeddon? Is he just in his own head? Who knows? But what you can't really argue it was is coaching, since you've repeatedly cited how he was playing hero puck last year under Eakins too.
-Lundestrom and Jones' injuries were somewhat worse this year, each missed more time and Lundy also missed camp.
-The most significant forward injuries were Grant last year and Zegras this year. These two players are not on the same level, and Zegras missed more time (36 games vs 51).
-McGinn also missed significant time this season, but he still played more games as a Duck than he did last season, so another wash.
-Outside of purely missed games, last season we had a guy who missed some time due to injury, and then was less effective the rest of the year because he clearly wasn't fully healthy. That was Carrick. This season, we had a guy in the same situation: McTavish. There was also Killorn, who missed two notable stretches and was pretty terrible in between them (which, as we found out when he had surgery, was because he was playing hurt). Once again, these players are not on the same level.
-Carlsson, both by injury and by design, was often unavailable this season. He wasn't on the team last year, so sure, he was an improvement to this year's roster. But that's the point, improved talent doesn't help when you can't deploy it effectively. Additionally, his line chemistry seemed to be negatively affected by his load management, he didn't look quite the same after his last injury, and oh yeah, he was an 18-19 year old rookie who you'd have preferred to be playing in Sweden this year. Not exactly the fully fledged first line center that 'Cronin had so much more top six talent' implies.
-Who else would you like to discuss as a major loss last season? Comtois? Klingberg? Kirkland?
-(I actually will get to Comtois later.)
-Timing also matters. Last season we lost Grant and Lundestrom at the same time. That wasn't great, we had to grab Megna off waivers for the bottom six. This season we were often missing Zegras and either Carlsson or McTavish at the same time, and occasionally missing all three at once and playing Bo freaking Groulx in the top six. Again, not the same.

You point out last season's injuries like they were equally crippling because of the limited top six depth, but the only significant top six injury last season (Rico) is a loss that even you acknowledge as equivalent to this year. So let's talk more about those 54 more games from top six talents that you cite. 54 doesn't actually look like that big a number when there's 82 games in a season and there's two extra players on your top six list.
456/6: 76 games per player
510/8: 63.75 games per player
Looks like last year's top six was pretty healthy, actually. This year's, not so much. Now consider things like developing line chemistry, getting back up to speed, and lingering injury impacts. How many games were McTavish or Killorn ineffective because they were playing hurt? That doesn't show up on a chart. But we watched the games, we know it happened. Once you factor that in, it defies all logic to claim last season's top six was more adversely affected by injury than this season's.

But they still scored 30 more points than last year's top six, you say. Yep, they sure did that. But again, this is your framing: we had eight top six guys this season. So functionally, we added two more guys to the top six and they provided a total of 30 more points. 15 points per extra top six guy. That sounds like a solid argument about improved talent depth to you? 15 point players don't belong in the top six, so something must be wrong with either your framing or the players.
(Spoiler: something was wrong with the players.)

But you can look at it a different way, too. You can see if 30 more points might be exactly what you'd expect out of those 54 extra games. And sure enough...
289/456: 0.63 ppg
319/510: 0.62 ppg
I dunno, the rates look pretty similar. Kind of like if you add two extra guys to your data set, the counting stats will naturally go up. Wouldn't you expect a better rate, too, from all this improved talent? But it doesn't look like there was a measurable improvement in anything but available bodies, and those available bodies were statistically getting hurt or otherwise hindered by injury more often this year. Was it absorbed well enough that adding two more guys could still provide an increase in the counting stats? Sure. Is it making the point you think it is when you say we had two more top six players and they were only able to provide 30 more points? No, not really. And all of that's accepting the eight person top six framing to begin with. It's actually a flawed premise, but I'll get to that in a minute.

This brings us to the issue of the bottom six. You said Verbeek's comments about bottom six scoring make no sense, but the bottom six is very relevant to any team's talent depth and it's frankly kind of weird to argue otherwise. Depth scoring is important in general (ask Toronto about relying solely on your stars to carry you). It surely can make a difference in those tight one goal games, where you need any edge you can get. And who replaces your top six players when they go down?
You cited points to indicate the top six's talent, so let's do it for the bottom six. This season we played three 4Cs: Carrick (11 points), Groulx (2 points), and Meyers (2 points). Last season, Grant alone had 18 points and that's with him missing half the season. Megna had 8. An unhealthy Carrick had 7. Who else changed in the bottom six? We more or less swapped Comtois out for Johnston. And much as many of us rightfully dragged Comtois, nobody's taking Johnston over him when the subject is producing points. Lundestrom and Jones this season had more injury and less total production. McGinn put up his same 3 points both years. A healthy Carrick and improved Leason were the only upgrades in this year's bottom six, everything else was either a wash or a drastic downgrade.

An additional point: a surprising number of bottom six players saw stretches of top six time last season when you consider the lack of top six injuries. (Vatrano spending significant time on the third line was probably a factor in this. Why would a team so desperately bare of top six talent put him on the third line?) Comtois got top six time, and when he could be bothered to try he even looked like he could belong there. Grant got top six time, and was generally in Grantzlaf mode for it. Silfverberg got top six time, and still looked like a guy who at least had top six hockey sense even if he didn't have functioning hips. Jones and Leason looked at least decent with McTavish, whether as a fourth or second line. Lundestrom was available but never needed to see the top six, because there were so many options and so few injuries. That was last year's forward depth.
This year's? Leason was much more effective than last season. Lundestrom and Silfverberg looked good with McTavish. Jones didn't look as good as at the end of last year, but had his strong points. And after that it comes to a screeching halt. Carrick was good in the bottom six, but he got one game at 2C as a reward for his play at 4C and there's a reason that never happened again. The rest of the bottom six options weren't even productive in the bottom six, let alone able to move up if needed.
(To fully acknowledge the facts, McGinn also got a tryout in the top six last season, where he wasn't useful at all. But the point is that last season's bottom six had more players who could be effective in the top six, and who were effective in the bottom six. Talent depth.)

So, going back to the flaws in the eight person top six framing: if you want to make a valid comparison on the subject of depth, you can't do it by just adding extra players to one side and saying look, the numbers are higher. Including any two of Silfverberg, Comtois, and Grant in last season's top eight puts their point production over this year's top eight. (And remember, this is with Grant and Comtois' injuries. Last season's bottom six absorbed injuries and still produced more than this season's, exactly the opposite of the way you say it should've gone.) The only top eight configuration that makes last year's top eight forwards look worse than this year's is if you use Jones and Leason, who were on the second line with McTavish for a stretch. And even that's close, 28 points versus 30. This is how you properly compare depth between rosters, by comparing the guys who actually played in the same situations. Not by comparing the designated top six talents while ignoring the rest of the forwards entirely.
(Now, if you add any of those two guys to last year's top eight, you also get last year's top eight having more games played and a lower scoring rate than this year's improved top eight. Which... circles right back around to the point that yeah we had better forwards this year but they were hurt too much to take advantage of it.)

Back to last year's bottom six handling the loss of Grant and Comtois. And Lundestrom. And Jones. This season's bottom six also saw losses (Lundestrom, Jones, McGinn, and Carrick), but could not absorb them at all. There were two, two, occasions after the deadline where the fourth line had more than one over-5-point player: the time McTavish got demoted, and the time Leason played center. (Despite two healthy bottom six centers being available, what does that tell you about the quality of the depth.)
In fact, last season there was only one sub-5-point forward on the roster who wasn't either a late season college signing or an actual AHLer. (And that was McGinn, who technically scored a lot more last season, it just wasn't with the Ducks.) This season there were four (including the injured McGinn) and the GP difference is just depressing. This bottom of the roster depth absolutely matters when it comes to absorbing injuries. You know it does, since you cite the bottom of the defensive roster being properly pushed down to the AHL. Where's the forward depth to push these guys who weren't producing down to the AHL? It wasn't there.

The lack of supporting depth meant this season's forward group was more susceptible to a few key injuries bringing the whole offense crashing down. And that's exactly what happened.
TLDR: direct comparison shows the forward injuries were worse this season, and you can't talk about roster depth while brushing off the existence (and downgrading) of the bottom six.

And before you accuse me of having an agenda too, I don't even like Cronin. I don't like his whining and throwing his players under the bus, I don't think he adapts his system well to the players he has, and it's hard to get around how the team seemed to improve at the end of the season when he said he backed off a bit. If asked to bet on a coach-off between him and Eakins, I'd decline.
But it's possible to think all the signs point to Cronin being a bad coach, while also accepting that the roster (specifically the forward talent) he had on paper was not the roster he actually had at his disposal. That's working with facts. Trying to twist last year's losses from injury into somehow equivalent to this year's because you're all up in your feelings about Eakins? That's an agenda.
 

12ozPapa

Make space for The Papa
Sponsor
Feb 13, 2012
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Screw it, I'm sick and have nothing better to do, I want to talk about facts too.
View attachment 867632

The thing about facts is, statistics can only tell you what, they can't tell you why. You post the stats, then you come up with a narrative that could explain the stats, which is fine, that's analysis. But then you declare that narrative to be just as much objective fact as the stats. That's not how it works.
There are so many erroneous leaps of logic in here. You've shared that one goal game table umpteen times, yes, and it still doesn't prove what you want us to believe it does. "One would believe that with a better defense, then that team should be the better team in 1-goal games." No, one would not necessarily believe that, it's an assumption. One might even say it's based on feelings. You might feel that the improved defense should lead to better one goal game performance, but those things don't necessarily correlate (especially with a team that, as you showed, performs worse on offense). Teams being great at pouring it on when they're ahead and/or surging back in a doomed effort, but bad in tight high pressure games, is a tale as old as sports and can happen for many reasons. Could it be on the coaching? Absolutely. Does posting the win-loss statistics and point shares prove it was on the coaching? Absolutely not. There are too many other factors.

Similarly, a core component of your depth argument (that the injuries last season were more impactful because the roster had less talent) is based on feelings rather than facts. So is saying that Eakins would have done better with this year's roster. You haven't engaged deeply enough with the reams of statistics you post to claim you've proved the first point. The second is purely hypothetical and cannot ever be objectively proven (or, to be fair, disproven).
It's right there in your own stats. Look at the Injury Viz charts again, last season's injuries are fairly well distributed over the positions while this season it's almost all blue. That doesn't seem relevant to you when you look at this year's stats? The defense was vastly improved and was able to absorb its relatively few losses, and the GA improved accordingly. The forwards, despite an improved top six on paper, were gutted by injury and had pathetic bottom six support, and lo and behold the GF was bad.

The analysis of the forwards got very, very long.
The main thing is the difference in quality of players lost. I'm one of the biggest Grant fans you'll find, but pretending losing him for half the season is remotely comparable to losing Zegras is absurd. And that's basically what it comes down to. If you analyze the situations instead of just posting the charts:
-One significant injury last season had no equivalent this season. Stolarz was replaced by Dostal, who performed slightly better. If anything that injury hurt the Gulls.
-While it's not directly equivalent, Vaakanainen last year and Gudas and Mintyukov this year can all be grouped together under the category of "nobody is arguing that this year's defense wasn't better". If you want to argue that a healthy Vaaks was the sole difference between last season being a tank defense and a functional NHL defense, go for it, but barring that? It's not the debate. Nobody who bemoans the injuries this season is talking about the defense (they might get to them after listing all the forwards). The exception is Drysdale, since even with the improved depth, top pairing RD became a whole thing. This was especially true of injury discussions before he was traded.
-But it turns out losing Drysdale each season was a wash. Same with Henrique, as you've stipulated. (If anything Drysdale hit harder this year, because specifically 'guys who can play top pairing RD' depth was slim. Fowler-Kulikov, Fowler-Harrington, and Fowler-Klingberg all had better GA/60 and GF/60 than Fowler-LaCombe and Fowler-Zellweger. To be fair they also all had better GA/60 than this season's Fowler-Drysdale, though the sample size is an issue. But the real difference in the defense this year was that the other two pairings also had NHL players on them.)
-Terry's minor injuries were a wash. His regression this year, while not an injury, certainly had an impact on the top six Cronin could utilize. Was it babygeddon? Is he just in his own head? Who knows? But what you can't really argue it was is coaching, since you've repeatedly cited how he was playing hero puck last year under Eakins too.
-Lundestrom and Jones' injuries were somewhat worse this year, each missed more time and Lundy also missed camp.
-The most significant forward injuries were Grant last year and Zegras this year. These two players are not on the same level, and Zegras missed more time (36 games vs 51).
-McGinn also missed significant time this season, but he still played more games as a Duck than he did last season, so another wash.
-Outside of purely missed games, last season we had a guy who missed some time due to injury, and then was less effective the rest of the year because he clearly wasn't fully healthy. That was Carrick. This season, we had a guy in the same situation: McTavish. There was also Killorn, who missed two notable stretches and was pretty terrible in between them (which, as we found out when he had surgery, was because he was playing hurt). Once again, these players are not on the same level.
-Carlsson, both by injury and by design, was often unavailable this season. He wasn't on the team last year, so sure, he was an improvement to this year's roster. But that's the point, improved talent doesn't help when you can't deploy it effectively. Additionally, his line chemistry seemed to be negatively affected by his load management, he didn't look quite the same after his last injury, and oh yeah, he was an 18-19 year old rookie who you'd have preferred to be playing in Sweden this year. Not exactly the fully fledged first line center that 'Cronin had so much more top six talent' implies.
-Who else would you like to discuss as a major loss last season? Comtois? Klingberg? Kirkland?
-(I actually will get to Comtois later.)
-Timing also matters. Last season we lost Grant and Lundestrom at the same time. That wasn't great, we had to grab Megna off waivers for the bottom six. This season we were often missing Zegras and either Carlsson or McTavish at the same time, and occasionally missing all three at once and playing Bo freaking Groulx in the top six. Again, not the same.

You point out last season's injuries like they were equally crippling because of the limited top six depth, but the only significant top six injury last season (Rico) is a loss that even you acknowledge as equivalent to this year. So let's talk more about those 54 more games from top six talents that you cite. 54 doesn't actually look like that big a number when there's 82 games in a season and there's two extra players on your top six list.
456/6: 76 games per player
510/8: 63.75 games per player
Looks like last year's top six was pretty healthy, actually. This year's, not so much. Now consider things like developing line chemistry, getting back up to speed, and lingering injury impacts. How many games were McTavish or Killorn ineffective because they were playing hurt? That doesn't show up on a chart. But we watched the games, we know it happened. Once you factor that in, it defies all logic to claim last season's top six was more adversely affected by injury than this season's.

But they still scored 30 more points than last year's top six, you say. Yep, they sure did that. But again, this is your framing: we had eight top six guys this season. So functionally, we added two more guys to the top six and they provided a total of 30 more points. 15 points per extra top six guy. That sounds like a solid argument about improved talent depth to you? 15 point players don't belong in the top six, so something must be wrong with either your framing or the players.
(Spoiler: something was wrong with the players.)

But you can look at it a different way, too. You can see if 30 more points might be exactly what you'd expect out of those 54 extra games. And sure enough...
289/456: 0.63 ppg
319/510: 0.62 ppg
I dunno, the rates look pretty similar. Kind of like if you add two extra guys to your data set, the counting stats will naturally go up. Wouldn't you expect a better rate, too, from all this improved talent? But it doesn't look like there was a measurable improvement in anything but available bodies, and those available bodies were statistically getting hurt or otherwise hindered by injury more often this year. Was it absorbed well enough that adding two more guys could still provide an increase in the counting stats? Sure. Is it making the point you think it is when you say we had two more top six players and they were only able to provide 30 more points? No, not really. And all of that's accepting the eight person top six framing to begin with. It's actually a flawed premise, but I'll get to that in a minute.

This brings us to the issue of the bottom six. You said Verbeek's comments about bottom six scoring make no sense, but the bottom six is very relevant to any team's talent depth and it's frankly kind of weird to argue otherwise. Depth scoring is important in general (ask Toronto about relying solely on your stars to carry you). It surely can make a difference in those tight one goal games, where you need any edge you can get. And who replaces your top six players when they go down?
You cited points to indicate the top six's talent, so let's do it for the bottom six. This season we played three 4Cs: Carrick (11 points), Groulx (2 points), and Meyers (2 points). Last season, Grant alone had 18 points and that's with him missing half the season. Megna had 8. An unhealthy Carrick had 7. Who else changed in the bottom six? We more or less swapped Comtois out for Johnston. And much as many of us rightfully dragged Comtois, nobody's taking Johnston over him when the subject is producing points. Lundestrom and Jones this season had more injury and less total production. McGinn put up his same 3 points both years. A healthy Carrick and improved Leason were the only upgrades in this year's bottom six, everything else was either a wash or a drastic downgrade.

An additional point: a surprising number of bottom six players saw stretches of top six time last season when you consider the lack of top six injuries. (Vatrano spending significant time on the third line was probably a factor in this. Why would a team so desperately bare of top six talent put him on the third line?) Comtois got top six time, and when he could be bothered to try he even looked like he could belong there. Grant got top six time, and was generally in Grantzlaf mode for it. Silfverberg got top six time, and still looked like a guy who at least had top six hockey sense even if he didn't have functioning hips. Jones and Leason looked at least decent with McTavish, whether as a fourth or second line. Lundestrom was available but never needed to see the top six, because there were so many options and so few injuries. That was last year's forward depth.
This year's? Leason was much more effective than last season. Lundestrom and Silfverberg looked good with McTavish. Jones didn't look as good as at the end of last year, but had his strong points. And after that it comes to a screeching halt. Carrick was good in the bottom six, but he got one game at 2C as a reward for his play at 4C and there's a reason that never happened again. The rest of the bottom six options weren't even productive in the bottom six, let alone able to move up if needed.
(To fully acknowledge the facts, McGinn also got a tryout in the top six last season, where he wasn't useful at all. But the point is that last season's bottom six had more players who could be effective in the top six, and who were effective in the bottom six. Talent depth.)

So, going back to the flaws in the eight person top six framing: if you want to make a valid comparison on the subject of depth, you can't do it by just adding extra players to one side and saying look, the numbers are higher. Including any two of Silfverberg, Comtois, and Grant in last season's top eight puts their point production over this year's top eight. (And remember, this is with Grant and Comtois' injuries. Last season's bottom six absorbed injuries and still produced more than this season's, exactly the opposite of the way you say it should've gone.) The only top eight configuration that makes last year's top eight forwards look worse than this year's is if you use Jones and Leason, who were on the second line with McTavish for a stretch. And even that's close, 28 points versus 30. This is how you properly compare depth between rosters, by comparing the guys who actually played in the same situations. Not by comparing the designated top six talents while ignoring the rest of the forwards entirely.
(Now, if you add any of those two guys to last year's top eight, you also get last year's top eight having more games played and a lower scoring rate than this year's improved top eight. Which... circles right back around to the point that yeah we had better forwards this year but they were hurt too much to take advantage of it.)

Back to last year's bottom six handling the loss of Grant and Comtois. And Lundestrom. And Jones. This season's bottom six also saw losses (Lundestrom, Jones, McGinn, and Carrick), but could not absorb them at all. There were two, two, occasions after the deadline where the fourth line had more than one over-5-point player: the time McTavish got demoted, and the time Leason played center. (Despite two healthy bottom six centers being available, what does that tell you about the quality of the depth.)
In fact, last season there was only one sub-5-point forward on the roster who wasn't either a late season college signing or an actual AHLer. (And that was McGinn, who technically scored a lot more last season, it just wasn't with the Ducks.) This season there were four (including the injured McGinn) and the GP difference is just depressing. This bottom of the roster depth absolutely matters when it comes to absorbing injuries. You know it does, since you cite the bottom of the defensive roster being properly pushed down to the AHL. Where's the forward depth to push these guys who weren't producing down to the AHL? It wasn't there.

The lack of supporting depth meant this season's forward group was more susceptible to a few key injuries bringing the whole offense crashing down. And that's exactly what happened.
TLDR: direct comparison shows the forward injuries were worse this season, and you can't talk about roster depth while brushing off the existence (and downgrading) of the bottom six.

And before you accuse me of having an agenda too, I don't even like Cronin. I don't like his whining and throwing his players under the bus, I don't think he adapts his system well to the players he has, and it's hard to get around how the team seemed to improve at the end of the season when he said he backed off a bit. If asked to bet on a coach-off between him and Eakins, I'd decline.
But it's possible to think all the signs point to Cronin being a bad coach, while also accepting that the roster (specifically the forward talent) he had on paper was not the roster he actually had at his disposal. That's working with facts. Trying to twist last year's losses from injury into somehow equivalent to this year's because you're all up in your feelings about Eakins? That's an agenda.
You’re my f***ing hero
 
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