Forbes: The Toronto Maple Leafs, worth $2.8 billion, have overtaken the New York Rangers to become hockey’s most expensive franchise.

Rob Brown

Way She Goes
Dec 17, 2009
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Does anyone care about this?

All being at the top of this list means is no civilian can afford to go to more than one or two games a year, if that.
This is a bit of a myth, same as the whole 'I could fly down to Florida and get a hotel for a night and go to the game for less than a ticket in Toronto'.

Late last week I looked at tickets for last night and there were many under $100, and they likely would have dropped leading up to puck drop last night.
 

ITM

Out on the front line, don't worry I'll be fine...
Jan 26, 2012
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Well then I'll apologize for inferring wrongly what your previous statements were suggesting. A competition of expenditure is just a spend off, and I personally don't find a who can spend the most money contest to make for compelling sport at all. You can find that in the NBA or MLB if that's really what floats your boat.

A hockey team should be built through drafting, developing, savvy trades, coaching hires, and worthwhile signings. The Stanley Cup is supposed to be hard to win, and it is supposed to be won through a contest that has competitive integrity. It's not meant to be bought like some gaudy piece of jewelry.



This pity party here however I just can't accept. The Leafs for many many years have had the most resources to commit to their hockey team to make it competitive. That they had to do it within the confines of a salary cap every other team also adheres to is no injustice. That would be akin to Mercedes-AMG complaining they can't use an engine that's twice the size of their competitors in a F1 race because it's against the rules. These are the rules the teams and owners have agreed to, in the interest of having a healthy functioning pro sports league.

Not every market is created the same, it's similarly 'irksome' to fans of smaller market teams when bigger markets like TO or NY land the best FAs. Or that they get the best national TV spots. Or any number of similar complaints. Is their fandom worth less in anything other than a monetary sense? Hockey should be enjoyed by all these people, contracting just so original 6 teams and their fans have a better chance at winning is on it's face ridiculous. Go find your own Tulsky. Go find your own Dellow. Build a winner and win, don't get upset you can't cut corners. Tampa didn't win back to back cups because of their tax conditions, they won because their management built a great team.
Appreciated! Thanks.

To the second bolded: Agreed. Which is why I envy Carolina from afar, lol. Conference finalist, had a war chest around $23M prior to the draft if memory serves. A glut of picks for the next three drafts. Perfectly structured valuation across positions without needlessly exaggerated ceilings. Prospects at every position. And no sign that constant contention couldn't be the norm for the foreseeable future.

Which lends to my perspective about competition and spending and your remark in the opening para: I don't want a league that's disproportionately weighted by clubs that can simply outspend the other. I want a league that supplements strengths according to jurisdictions, like the examples mentioned in my previous reply and there's a difference. So to say allowing that elasticity is to go down the way of the MLB, NBA, is duly noted from a slippery slope consideration, but its not what I mean or want.

The Pity Party: Ha! Well...Agreed...to a point. I don't understand how we miss the gems in our backyard given our outlier resources in other facets of what should be a very industrious scouting department. Don't get it at all. I'm sure most Leafs fans would agree.

And to pause, I didn't say contraction to six teams. I imply that contraction versus rampant expansion where the business model of hockey supersedes its essential character and integrity, is preferred. Of course, it is, profits will increase as expansion increases, but like anything convenient, eventually the quality suffers.

And we're not here to watch a lesser product, right?

And as for markets, no... they're not created the same and they're not at identical points in maturation and the difference between fledgling markets and for want of a better term, foundational markets have to be acknowledged.

You brought up F1. Is there a discrepancy in budgets across F1 teams that you could also illustrate your point with?

This valuation only exists because of the salary cap.
I'm all eyes. Explain.
 

SheldonJPlankton

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Megustaelhockey

"I like hockey" in Spanish
Apr 29, 2011
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It’s good for MLSE, but I don’t see how this is a flex for the fans. I think it’s weird when fans flex about stuff like that.
I mean... I could point out the obvious reason why fans would see this as a flex, but one of my 2024 resolutions is to be less of an asshole on the internet.
 

North Cole

♧ Lem
Jan 22, 2017
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Appreciated! Thanks.

To the second bolded: Agreed. Which is why I envy Carolina from afar, lol. Conference finalist, had a war chest around $23M prior to the draft if memory serves. A glut of picks for the next three drafts. Perfectly structured valuation across positions without needlessly exaggerated ceilings. Prospects at every position. And no sign that constant contention couldn't be the norm for the foreseeable future.

Which lends to my perspective about competition and spending and your remark in the opening para: I don't want a league that's disproportionately weighted by clubs that can simply outspend the other. I want a league that supplements strengths according to jurisdictions, like the examples mentioned in my previous reply and there's a difference. So to say allowing that elasticity is to go down the way of the MLB, NBA, is duly noted from a slippery slope consideration, but its not what I mean or want.

The Pity Party: Ha! Well...Agreed...to a point. I don't understand how we miss the gems in our backyard given our outlier resources in other facets of what should be a very industrious scouting department. Don't get it at all. I'm sure most Leafs fans would agree.

And to pause, I didn't say contraction to six teams. I imply that contraction versus rampant expansion where the business model of hockey supersedes its essential character and integrity, is preferred. Of course, it is, profits will increase as expansion increases, but like anything convenient, eventually the quality suffers.

And we're not here to watch a lesser product, right?

And as for markets, no... they're not created the same and they're not at identical points in maturation and the difference between fledgling markets and for want of a better term, foundational markets have to be acknowledged.

You brought up F1. Is there a discrepancy in budgets across F1 teams that you could also illustrate your point with?


I'm all eyes. Explain.
Any contraction at all will result in a lower cap ceiling and less money for everyone to spend, and fans of all of the teams that haven't been winning cups would likely support contraction, it gives them more of an opportunity to win.

If you don't want a league that's weighted to club spending, why do you want to personalize the salary cap? Every player has their own vehicles to reduce taxes or adjust the timing of taxes. There's no functional way to adjust the cap so that each market gets a unique cap ceiling that offsets all of their 'perceived' market advantages.

How are you going to calculate what the tax savings in FLA are, let alone what they are worth compared to other tax free states, or compared to other states with state tax, or provinces with even higher federal taxes and provincial taxes. Even if calculated, how are you going to get anyone to agree what those are all worth? It's different contract to contract, some guys have almost zero game cheques to avoid jock tax, some have almost no signing bonuses to avoid high provincial/state taxes. The US jock tax also has a portion paid to cities, does that happen in Toronto?

Furthermore, how can we calculate the ancillary benefits in Toronto, a guy like Matthews is going to pull in a lot more in advertising and marketing fees in Toronto than he will Arizona. What is that benefit worth? After tax of course, considering he is probably a resident of somewhere in the US, not actually Toronto.

Not only is none of this practical, majority of it is just straight up not feasible. To your last point, yes we are here to watch a certain product, that is our main concern as fans. That is not the NHL's main concern as a service provider. Their main concern is making profits, what Toronto gives up in on-ice competitiveness, it makes up in profits and investment gains to it's owners. The latter of which is much more important to them than the former. When I worked for the Leafs they had a 11K waitlist for fans to get season tickets, and I'm sure it's only gotten bigger. The NHL is monopoly that exists to drive franchise value, expand, and then cash in on the value in the form of franchise fees. Cost certainty is far more valuable to them than theatrics to determine what team deserves and extra 5M in cap space.
 
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tucker3434

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I'm all eyes. Explain.

To start, all else equal, increased profitability results in a higher valuation. Capping one of the largest expenses on your income statement then indexing it to revenue is a type of security any business owner would love to have. It’s one of the reasons everyone is having record profits and ensures that should this run end, there are brakes to soften the down turn. If MLSE wants to sell and some public company decides they want to park $3b in a sports investment, the cash flows have to make sense for the shareholders. Otherwise, you park your money elsewhere. So the cap is vital to make smaller markets viable, but it does also make the big markets better investments as well.

There’s an argument that increased payroll could result in increased revenue. Bur really the only thing that definitely increases revenue is winning. And increasing payroll alone doesn't guarantee that as we saw during the almost 40 years between the Leaf's last cup and the start of the salary cap.

The other thing is that part of the Leaf's value is in their reach. Being adored by all 6m people in Toronto is great. But there's kind of a cap to that as well. That I can turn on Bally Sports Southeast and see the Canes play the Leafs (and all of the associated advertising) here in Atlanta adds value to Toronto. Who wants less ad revenue? Definitely not the owners.

These owners get to have their cake and eat it too. They take record profits and turn around and tell the fans they'd spend more money if the mean old league would let them. Liars. They love money.
 
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Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
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I mean not really. There are financial analysts whose main job is to figure this type of shit out so people can make sound investments.

The Commanders just sold for somewhere around $6 billion and they generate well over 2x as much revenue as the Maple Leafs do.

Yeah I guess someone could go out and buy them for $6 billion but it would be a very unwise financial decision.
Scotia bank paid them 800 million just for the arena naming rights. Hopefully they got a season seat thrown in but I doubt it. Lol

And yeas the following is for 5% stake in all the sporting facilities and teams but the Leafs are the major part of it.
The OMERS pension plan has acquired a 5% "indirect stake" in Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment for $400M. The investment "comes through a 20% direct stake in Kilmer Sports Inc.," which is owned by MLSE chair Larry Tanenbaum.
 
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Enga Olly

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May 26, 2021
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It’s good for MLSE, but I don’t see how this is a flex for the fans. I think it’s weird when fans flex about stuff like that.

Well it kind of is a flex - that part of the valuation is a reflection of how much product the team sells which is directly connected to fan support. Having the largest and most dedicated fanbase in the league is a flex. Leaf Nation rules all of fan bases, we're hated for it and I love it.
 

Megustaelhockey

"I like hockey" in Spanish
Apr 29, 2011
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Well it kind of is a flex - that part of the valuation is a reflection of how much product the team sells which is directly connected to fan support. Having the largest and most dedicated fanbase in the league is a flex. Leaf Nation rules all of fan bases, we're hated for it and I love it.
I'd rather win cups.
 

Rob

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Feb 27, 2002
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Well our rinky dink hockey team was in the Stanley Cup Finals like a little over 2 years ago and you guys haven't made it to the Finals since '67. Anywho anyone on here remember these beauts?



The MTL players got different rings that year.

Not a Leafs fan. Just saying your team is just as irrelevant. A cinderella run on the back of a great goaltender who is no longer around.

Rich folks do not like to spend more when there is no need.... And the TML fans seem to be willing to throw a lot of money to the organisation no matter how badly the team is doing.

In sports they do. Just looks at leagues with no cap like MLB. Or a soft cap like the NBA.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
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Not a Leafs fan. Just saying your team is just as irrelevant. A cinderella run on the back of a great goaltender who is no longer around.



In sports they do. Just looks at leagues with no cap like MLB. Or a soft cap like the NBA.
MLB has a luxury tax, that varies form 20-60% , depending on how many years they are over the luxury tax threshold.
 

McFlash97

Registered User
Oct 10, 2017
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Kings at 4 surprised me. But it is L.A. after all.

I'd imagine McDavid is essentially the main (sole?) factor for the Oilers being so high at 7.
I'm sure Edmonton has nothing to do with having the leagues best Arena and district, or a rabid fanbase that reaches put all over North America that spend wildly on its team or a rich owner.
 

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