scott clam
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about the same amount of time if he's drinking whisky and snorting blow every other night.
For how long does Lemieux play without the early 2006 heart condition?
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VanIslander
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You should know better.
If he hadn't been abused, he probably wouldn't have had substance abuse.
Not all alcoholism and drug use is inherited.
Height was part of his born constitution, not a result of some chance event in his life. Similarly, Lemieux didn't get some virus; he inherited a condition.
scott clam
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All that is true. But it doesn't change the fact that it was his heavy drug (ab)use that derailed his career, and not his short stature. That's the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to moralize. It's totally understandable why a person would use substances as a coping mechanism, after experiencing something like that.
He's far from the only player who's had a substance problem, and I'm not judging those guys either. I'm no boy scout, I've lived it and I've seen it. Believe me.
Of course it's terrible that he had to experience that kind of abuse, and that he felt compelled to keep it hidden for so long, only for it to grow and eat away at everything inside. Thankfully he found the courage to get help, clean up, and then speak out against the Monster that is Graham James. And to encourage other victims to break the silence, and end the stigma.
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
I never said his short stature 'derailed' his career. But he likely would be a lock for the HHOF if his physicality was combined with some physical size to check opponents harder.
scott clam
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"Derailed" was my word, but Fleury definitely made the most out of his low centre of gravity. He's borderline HOF already, and I think if he were just a little bit more consistent during his prime years he makes it in, size be damned. That, and if he didn't crash and burn the way that he did, after the SLC Olympics.
I 100 % remember an interview of Lemieux before the season where he stated that he wants to stay for three more years till the 2008 season. He was excited about the "new NHL" and said that with the young Penguins roster his dream wa sto win another cup.
So his time concept, wasn`t bad at all considering the Pens might it to the Finals 08. So wohat an ending it could have been.
I`ve often wondered if things might have looked different if Malkin had already arrived im Pittsburgh in 05. That surely would have meant that Lemieux would have played with either Malkin or Crosby on a line. This would have tremandously helped Lemieux without a doubt.
So his time concept, wasn`t bad at all considering the Pens might it to the Finals 08. So wohat an ending it could have been.
I`ve often wondered if things might have looked different if Malkin had already arrived im Pittsburgh in 05. That surely would have meant that Lemieux would have played with either Malkin or Crosby on a line. This would have tremandously helped Lemieux without a doubt.
Mario Lemieux is generally said to be the most "skilled" player of all-time, and skill doesn't go away. He probably could have played till age 40+ based on skill alone, even if in a more limited role/power play specialist often.
The problem always comes back to health.
He was 40 in the 2005-2006 season. If he had been 100% healthy and in good shape at that time? He could probably play till age ~45 easily if he really wanted to (which is another problem - Lemieux doesn't strike me as the type of person to want to play that long either...). But - he had never been in a good health, so it's kind of a moot point.
To answer the OP - does Mario make a difference in the 2008 finals? I always find it hard to speculate on team results. Drop Lemieux on the team at season start - maybe Malkin is never given a big enough role, and takes longer to develop, and Pens don't even make the finals in 2008...who knows, butterfly effect.
But if you simply drop a healthy 42 year old Lemieux on the Pens roster going into the 2008 finals? I think he could be a difference maker, yes.
The problem always comes back to health.
He was 40 in the 2005-2006 season. If he had been 100% healthy and in good shape at that time? He could probably play till age ~45 easily if he really wanted to (which is another problem - Lemieux doesn't strike me as the type of person to want to play that long either...). But - he had never been in a good health, so it's kind of a moot point.
To answer the OP - does Mario make a difference in the 2008 finals? I always find it hard to speculate on team results. Drop Lemieux on the team at season start - maybe Malkin is never given a big enough role, and takes longer to develop, and Pens don't even make the finals in 2008...who knows, butterfly effect.
But if you simply drop a healthy 42 year old Lemieux on the Pens roster going into the 2008 finals? I think he could be a difference maker, yes.
Lemieux was at 18 points after 15 games.
Before his heart problems started it surely felt that he was getting bettter and finding his way.
Sure, he was slow as hell and a liabilty on defense, but he still was a force on the power play.
He was pretty useless 5 on 5, but I am sure if he had one other quality player on the first line, things would have looked a lot differently.
People act like he was a total bum in 05/06 , which surely isnt true when you take a closer look.
Before his heart problems started it surely felt that he was getting bettter and finding his way.
Sure, he was slow as hell and a liabilty on defense, but he still was a force on the power play.
He was pretty useless 5 on 5, but I am sure if he had one other quality player on the first line, things would have looked a lot differently.
People act like he was a total bum in 05/06 , which surely isnt true when you take a closer look.
JackSlater
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I don't see Lemieux as a guy willing to keep playing for years after 2006. I agree he would still be a power play weapon - huge and with the best hands/brain combination in the NHL, little skating to do on the power play. I think that Lemieux would also recognize that Crosby/Malkin needed it to be their team sooner than later.
Hobnobs
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You want a useless ES player on the first line? Not sure what 18 points after 15 games has to do with anything?
MadLuke
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Would a respected PP specialist position exist like a designated hitter, maybe not only he stay for a long time.... but continue to be a top 15-25 powerplay player for a ridiculously long time in the league.
But realistically how the league existed and roster build, 6 even strength points in 23 games for Mario....
I feel Mario ending up with the Hull, Robitaille, Yzerman, Andreychuck, Leclair-Turgeon (did try a little bit more the next year), Leetch I am excited for hockey after the break, training goes well, then travel and 82 games schedules start, people are skating really fast and quit before the end or that summer was probable. He was far from alone here.
But realistically how the league existed and roster build, 6 even strength points in 23 games for Mario....
I feel Mario ending up with the Hull, Robitaille, Yzerman, Andreychuck, Leclair-Turgeon (did try a little bit more the next year), Leetch I am excited for hockey after the break, training goes well, then travel and 82 games schedules start, people are skating really fast and quit before the end or that summer was probable. He was far from alone here.
MadLuke
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Not sure here:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com
You had Palffy-Crosby, Recchi was there, that group did not last for long with injuries pilling, but Palffy-Crosby were among the top players in even strength points before Lemieux retired, there was no lack of talented first liner candidate on that team before Palffy leave.
It shows that Lemieux was still productive in the first stretch of the season. Many people make it seem as he was doing absolutely nothing that season, hence the idea of him playing longer would seem unreasinable.
I don`t want to have a useless player on the first line, I just think that at that stage of his career Lemieux was useless when paired with average players. Give him quality players and he explodes.
Allow me to disagree here. Lemieux barely played with Crosby on the first line.Not sure here:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
You had Palffy-Crosby, Recchi was there, that group did not last for long with injuries pilling, but Palffy-Crosby were among the top players in even strength points before Lemieux retired, there was no lack of talented first liner candidate on that team before Palffy leave.
For the most part he was paired with Rechi and Malone. Neither of them was a quality player at that point. Rechi was till solid, but certainly not anything special. And he certainly wasn`t a great skater anymore to balance Lemieux`s JohnDeere skating. Same can be said for a guy like Palffy. Malone is average at best.
Look at the 03 season. As long as Lemieux had Kovalev he was asblutely electric. Once he was gone, Lemieux was doing absolutely nothing.
Of course, every player benefits from quality players. But I think Lemieux would have made a huge leap in production with a real quality player on his line.
MadLuke
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I am not sure if we disagree, lemieux was not playing first line minutes, I am not saying he was playing on th first line with Palfy-Crosby, I was disagreing in a vacuum with the bolderd part:
if he had one other quality player on the first line,
The pens had extreme high quality player on the first line to start the season, is it not more about Lemieux not fast-fit enough to play on it ?
Hobnobs
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Not sure how guys like LeClair, Recchi and Palffy are average players but sure.
Mario played a lot with all of them. They juggled the lines a lot before settling for a while on the Surovy - Crosby - Palffy line but that was after Mario was gone.
MadLuke
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In context, clearly average Top 6, which would still make you about top 25-30% in the league.
Leclair had 5 ev points in 22 games before Lemieux retired, -8
For the whole season he had 23 even strenght points, -24, that 164th in points among the 284 forwards that played at least 60 games and played 10 minutes a game. For a slow offensive player, that could be said to be below average, he retired early the very next year. that would be a case to be impressed by the player name more than the play.
Recchi was 125th in even strength points among forward in 2005-2006 and was -36, while playing 83 games, still a nice veteran to have for a playoff run, good still help a power play, but an above average first liner, at that point?
Obviously Crosby was an elite nhler (offensively) day 1 and Palffy was still there.
