Post-Game Talk: Flames 3 - Jets 1

[Buffdog]

I was at the game and didn't spend too much time on the boards when I got home, but were people really blaming Stanley on the PK goal? Since when is it the Defenseman's responsibility to leave a player alone in front of the net to go out chasing a player following the play. Picking up that player is 100% on the forward not the defense. Stanley's numbers were outstanding last night. 65.22 CF%, 82.35 xGF% and 100% 5 on 5 GF%, with a nice assist.

Lol one poster said something like "even on his assist, he had his first shot blocked and had to retrieve the puck before passing it"

The guy could cure cancer and this board would be like "well, yeah..... BUT...."

 

[Cnile]

Jets played very well.
Stanley was not the reason we lost, not even close.
Calgary was tired and slow.
Wolf owned the game period, credit where credit is due.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Once Calgary gains the zone there is no more gap control, there is only taking away the most dangerous options.

Not sure what you mean here... gap control isn't just a neutral zone issue...?

Lowry tries to force the puck carrier and gets picked - that is the ultimate cause of this goal. But then Iafallo and Pionk also pressure the puck on their side - which is correct for our system.

The issue is that Stanley ALSO commits to that side - covering a player yes - but he knows he doesn't have speed so he doesn't leave space like Jomo or Samberg who rely on their reaction time/speed. So compensating for that, his side of the ice is wide open and the shooter has a lot of time.

Not saying he's not a 'decent' player - its just he drifts out of position quite often without awareness of his D partner.

Its not the end of the world - but I honestly don't see the argument anymore where Stan makes this a better team - yup a 7th D with callup potential fine but on our PK unit in the playoffs? No thanks.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The problem is that our system is based on aggressive gap control - not man coverage. That is my point.

That's what we believe their system is based on, but, the coaches have seen what Stanley is doing and if they are fine with it I am not sure what the argument is. It might be the wrong strategy, but, they have seen what he is doing and they have not made personnel changes.

 

[TS Quint]

The problem is that our system is based on aggressive gap control - not man coverage. That is my point.

Haha, absolete nonsense. What happened was Lowry got bumped at the blue line putting him out of position. Iafallo and Pionk get caught puck watching #20 leaving Stanley the choice of covering #11 WHO IS RIGHT IN THE SLOT or in your mind go chase the high guy...for some reason. If Stan goes to chase Kuzmenko then he leaves #20 alone infront of the net.....that's what you think the Jets system is? I can assure you, that is not the Jets system.

Stanley is playing his zone which is the front of the net and the most dangerous spot for the other team to shoot from. His job isnt to vacate the most dangerous spot on the ice leaving a man wide open to shoot from to go cover the point....because of "aggressive gap control".

Imagine if Staney take your advice to leave the MAN WIDE OPEN IN THE SLOT to chase a trailer then you would really have something to complain about. If you have the game recorded go to 4:50 of the 2nd. 11 is busting down the middle and Kuz is standing at the blue. You really want Stan to not take the guy in the best scoring spot on the entire ice and instead stop and "tighten that gap" on a guy standing at the blue line. But him having a good gap on the guy in the most dangerous spot is some how bad. Unreal.

SDS

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

That's what we believe their system is based on, but, the coaches have seen what Stanley is doing and if they are fine with it I am not sure what the argument is. It might be the wrong strategy, but, they have seen what he is doing and they have not made personnel changes.

Its more than 'we believe' - Arniel and his team have been very very clear that gap control is key. But yes, I totally acknowledge your point... and it really is the same argument this board has had about Stuart and then Beaulieu for years, where the coaches see intangibles that the fans don't.

The problem is that we were right about Beaulieu and Stu.

 

[KingBogo]

Not sure what you mean here... gap control isn't just a neutral zone issue...?

Lowry tries to force the puck carrier and gets picked - that is the ultimate cause of this goal. But then Iafallo and Pionk also pressure the puck on their side - which is correct for our system.

The issue is that Stanley ALSO commits to that side - covering a player yes - but he knows he doesn't have speed so he doesn't leave space like Jomo or Samberg who rely on their reaction time/speed. So compensating for that, his side of the ice is wide open and the shooter has a lot of time.

Not saying he's not a 'decent' player - its just he drifts out of position quite often without awareness of his D partner.

Its not the end of the world - but I honestly don't see the argument anymore where Stan makes this a better team - yup a 7th D with callup potential fine but on our PK unit in the playoffs? No thanks.

Any way you try to spin it, Stanley took the guy he had to take, in no way is the defenseman ever responsible for a player trailing the play. Yeah maybe he could have reacted faster attempting to block the shot, but ultimately it was a well set up play by Calgary, that was set up by our forwards probably being a little too aggressive on the puck that allowed for the trailer to be wide open. Lowry got picked a bit, but he was in the best position to see that play developing and I'm guessing he would take full responsibility for not having that man.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Haha, absolete nonsense. What happened was Lowry got bumped at the blue line putting him out of position. Iafallo and Pionk get caught puck watching #20 leaving Stanley the choice of covering #11 WHO IS RIGHT IN THE SLOT or in your mind go chase the high guy...for some reason. If Stan goes to chase Kuzmenko then he leaves #20 alone infront of the net.....that's what you think the Jets system is? I can assure you, that is not the Jets system.

Stanley is playing his zone which is the front of the net and the most dangerous spot for the other team to shoot from. His job isnt to vacate the most dangerous spot on the ice leaving a man wide open to shoot from to go cover the point....because of "aggressive gap control".

Imagine if Staney take your advice to leave the MAN WIDE OPEN IN THE SLOT to chase a trailer then you would really have something to complain about. If you have the game recorded go to 4:50 of the 2nd. 11 is busting down the middle and Kuz is standing at the blue. You really want Stan to not take the guy in the best scoring spot on the entire ice and instead stop and "tighten that gap" on a guy standing at the blue line. But him having a good gap on the guy in the most dangerous spot is some how bad. Unreal.

SDS

Let's just agree to disagree - I see how Samberg, Jomo and DeMelo play the PK and it is not how Stan plays it. We consistently challenge the shooter ALWAYS - so YES Stan's job is to pressure Kuz WHILE also cutting off the passing lane. Once Stan disengages from his guy in the slot to challenge Kuz, it is Pionk's job to move over to that player - he is still very close.

I am simply saying he over-commits - its not that he's 'wrong' in his decisions but he doesn't leave himself an option to disengage quickly and he doesn't anticipate the play - thats why his back is to the play so often. He just doesn't have the agility.

Pionk and Iafallo were not 'puck watching' they were doing their jobs. Again, lets just agree to disagree.

If you want him in your top 4 PK over Jomo, that's your call - personally I don't see the benefit.

 

[TS Quint]

Not sure what you mean here... gap control isn't just a neutral zone issue...?

Lowry tries to force the puck carrier and gets picked - that is the ultimate cause of this goal. But then Iafallo and Pionk also pressure the puck on their side - which is correct for our system.

The issue is that Stanley ALSO commits to that side - covering a player yes - but he knows he doesn't have speed so he doesn't leave space like Jomo or Samberg who rely on their reaction time/speed. So compensating for that, his side of the ice is wide open and the shooter has a lot of time.

Not saying he's not a 'decent' player - its just he drifts out of position quite often without awareness of his D partner.

Its not the end of the world - but I honestly don't see the argument anymore where Stan makes this a better team - yup a 7th D with callup potential fine but on our PK unit in the playoffs? No thanks.

Stanley doesn't "commit" to that side. He is eliminating the player in the most dangerous spot on the ice.

Pressuring a player in a non dangerous spot on the ice like Iafallo is doing isn't what he should be doing, Flames shouldn't be able to score from there. It's not important. Once Lowry got picked Iafallo shouldn't have chased. He should have got into a spot to create a triangle and keep everything to the outside. He should have been more to the middle of the ice on #86 right shoulder, also cutting off the middle of the ice. Let Pionk deal with the puck.

What is the right play? No "gap control" with the guy in the most dangerous spot and go get "gap control" with a guy at the blue line?

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Any way you try to spin it, Stanley took the guy he had to take, in no way is the defenseman ever responsible for a player trailing the play. Yeah maybe he could have reacted faster attempting to block the shot, but ultimately it was a well set up play by Calgary, that was set up by our forwards probably being a little too aggressive on the puck that allowed for the trailer to be wide open. Lowry got picked a bit, but he was in the best position to see that play developing and I'm guessing he would take full responsibility for not having that man.

Once again, I will highlight the never-ending Stan defender argument....

First - over-exagerrate things - no one is saying he should be covering Kuz. He needs to disengage and pressure Kuz while cutting off the lane - that's not asking him to be superman.

Second - admit that Stan 'could' have done better BUT etc etc... my point is that we have D that consistently DO better and they're not on the PK.

It certainly seems like its Stan or bust - I get it. But I am hoping for a D upgrade above all else by TD... just a bit worried its Miller that sits if we get Risto.

 

[KingBogo]

Let's just agree to disagree - I see how Samberg, Jomo and DeMelo play the PK and it is not how Stan plays it. We consistently challenge the shooter ALWAYS - so YES Stan's job is to pressure Kuz WHILE also cutting off the passing lane. Once Stan disengages from his guy in the slot to challenge Kuz, it is Pionk's job to move over to that player - he is still very close.

I am simply saying he over-commits - its not that he's 'wrong' in his decisions but he doesn't leave himself an option to disengage quickly and he doesn't anticipate the play - thats why his back is to the play so often. He just doesn't have the agility.

Pionk and Iafallo were not 'puck watching' they were doing their jobs. Again, lets just agree to disagree.

If you want him in your top 4 PK over Jomo, that's your call - personally I don't see the benefit.

The last place you want Morrissey is killing penalties. He is way too important to our team, to put him in that many shot blocking situations. He already plays the most amount of minutes on the team, so giving him those extra hard minutes is just going to wear him down needlessly, with a big jump in injury risk.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Its more than 'we believe' - Arniel and his team have been very very clear that gap control is key. But yes, I totally acknowledge your point... and it really is the same argument this board has had about Stuart and then Beaulieu for years, where the coaches see intangibles that the fans don't.

The problem is that we were right about Beaulieu and Stu.

We believe we were right as we can never have all the information. It's the same argument that Ehlers should be on the first line. It's a mystery why the coaches keep trotting out Stanley, I can't see the rational, as you point out it goes against their pk system, but, I believe they probably have a reason. Would love to know what that reason is. I believe he does a lot more on 5 v 5 than we give him credit for, but, ultimately, all we can try to understand as we can't change it.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

We believe we were right as we can never have all the information. It's the same argument that Ehlers should be on the first line. It's a mystery why the coaches keep trotting out Stanley, I can't see the rational, as you point out it goes against their pk system, but, I believe they probably have a reason. Would love to know what that reason is. I believe he does a lot more on 5 v 5 than we give him credit for, but, ultimately, all we can try to understand as we can't change it.

True - but again, the fans who pushed for Ehlers on PP1 were right... the evidence is overwhelming that his presence is the catalyst for PP1 success and three different coaches missed it.

Like, Im not a 'Stan hater' - he is playing better but he's always just on the cusp of control, like if he misses his mark, he just cant recover... I do enjoy watching to see how our PK runs and how he fits or doesn't... thats about it.

 

[Adam da bomb]

True - but again, the fans who pushed for Ehlers on PP1 were right... the evidence is overwhelming that his presence is the catalyst for PP1 success and three different coaches missed it.

Like, Im not a 'Stan hater' - he is playing better but he's always just on the cusp of control, like if he misses his mark, he just cant recover... I do enjoy watching to see how our PK runs and how he fits or doesn't... thats about it.

True. Fans may be right about this time too. Ultimately, it comes down to we have no control so even if it is a bad decision I want to understand their rationale as I can't change it.

Also, I'm not sure if fans were able to suggest the wrinkle that the powerplay uses. They were right about usage and Ehlers is an incredible edition, but, I definitely couldn't picture what if the positions were less stationary, also you know Ehlers is great at zone entries let's not use him for that. He was on pp before and it wasn't much better for him, but, coach comes up with a design that can take advantage of his skill set he turns a good pp into an incredible pp.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

True. Fans may be right about this time too. Ultimately, it comes down to we have no control so even if it is a bad decision I want to understand their rationale as I can't change it.

Jets have shown a tendency towards 'sunk cost fallacy' before... I suspect its as simple as that.

I really would like to see the analysis on which Chevy determined that Samberg is only worth $150k more a year than Stan though... that one scares me a bit - I think we could be headed not just for more Stan but more Stan at $3.9m a year for five years or something crazy like that.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Jets have shown a tendency towards 'sunk cost fallacy' before... I suspect its as simple as that.

Maybe. Trying to sink bout other playes. They cut bait with Wheeler, they cut bait with Schmidt and Ves. So it's not like they haven't done it before. With other D they didn't but, didn't feel like they had the options.

 

[Jets 31]

Jesus Stanley is not the reason we lost, he played good. Do i think we have better defenseman than him not playing ? Yes . I think both Coghlan and Fluery are better all around defenseman than him but the coaches don't think so, they know way better than me so no point in complaining about it.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Maybe. Trying to sink bout other playes. They cut bait with Wheeler, they cut bait with Schmidt and Ves. So it's not like they haven't done it before. With other D they didn't but, didn't feel like they had the options.

The approach is definitely changing - but again, they cut bait on Wheeler a year late... likely same with Schmidt (paying chis or kova league minimum we would have still come out ahead on his buyout). They tried to sign Ladd which would have launched us into a fatal rebuild, traded a SOLID pick to protect Enstrom for one season, etc... it would just be interesting to see the thought process behind the scenes.

That being said, there's so many homeruns that Chevy's hit too...

Anyway, hoping for DuMoulin, Pettersen or Risto - I think anyone of those guys secures a playoff run.

The last place you want Morrissey is killing penalties. He is way too important to our team, to put him in that many shot blocking situations. He already plays the most amount of minutes on the team, so giving him those extra hard minutes is just going to wear him down needlessly, with a big jump in injury risk.

This actually leads to my argument against Stan... yes he is serviceable but once we get to the playoffs - Jomo will likely once again be trapped as our shutdown pairing... an upgrade over Stan (paired with Miller) opens up so many options for Arniel come playoff time.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The approach is definitely changing - but again, they cut bait on Wheeler a year late... likely same with Schmidt (paying chis or kova league minimum we would have still come out ahead on his buyout). They tried to sign Ladd which would have launched us into a fatal rebuild, traded a SOLID pick to protect Enstrom for one season, etc... it would just be interesting to see the thought process behind the scenes.

That being said, there's so many homeruns that Chevy's hit too...

Anyway, hoping for DuMoulin, Pettersen or Risto - I think anyone of those guys secures a playoff run.


This actually leads to my argument against Stan... yes he is serviceable but once we get to the playoffs - Jomo will likely once again be trapped as our shutdown pairing... an upgrade over Stan (paired with Miller) opens up so many options for Arniel come playoff time.

Ladd is a different story as we needed as much of a sentimental win as much as what was happening on ice. Same with wheeler, but, the average fan does not particularly like Stan so not the same argument.

They might be wrong, but, I think they like Stan more than Miller just look at number of times the two were healthy scratched this season.

 

[TS Quint]

Let's just agree to disagree - I see how Samberg, Jomo and DeMelo play the PK and it is not how Stan plays it. We consistently challenge the shooter ALWAYS - so YES Stan's job is to pressure Kuz WHILE also cutting off the passing lane. Once Stan disengages from his guy in the slot to challenge Kuz, it is Pionk's job to move over to that player - he is still very close.

I am simply saying he over-commits - its not that he's 'wrong' in his decisions but he doesn't leave himself an option to disengage quickly and he doesn't anticipate the play - thats why his back is to the play so often. He just doesn't have the agility.

Pionk and Iafallo were not 'puck watching' they were doing their jobs. Again, lets just agree to disagree.

If you want him in your top 4 PK over Jomo, that's your call - personally I don't see the benefit.

With Lowry out of the play and a 5on 3 you think it's the Jets system to then overload the puck leaving and you say Stanley to cover Huberdeau, Kuz and cut off the entire middle of the ice. I guess whe everything on the ice is Stanley's responsibility, everything is his fault.

Pionk should also stop standing infront of the guy with the puck, leaving Iafallo who is trailing the puck carrier to somehow stop him.

Just seems like you start with " it's Stanley's fault" then fill in the gaps after.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Jesus Stanley is not the reason we lost, he played good. Do i think we have better defenseman than him not playing ? Yes . I think both Coghlan and Fluery are better all around defenseman than him but the coaches don't think so, they know way better than me so no point in complaining about it.

Even if they don't know more than you, you still have no control so as your avatar would do just got to go with the flow.

 

[raideralex99]

Stanley doesn't "commit" to that side. He is eliminating the player in the most dangerous spot on the ice.

Pressuring a player in a non dangerous spot on the ice like Iafallo is doing isn't what he should be doing, Flames shouldn't be able to score from there. It's not important. Once Lowry got picked Iafallo shouldn't have chased. He should have got into a spot to create a triangle and keep everything to the outside. He should have been more to the middle of the ice on #86 right shoulder, also cutting off the middle of the ice. Let Pionk deal with the puck.

What is the right play? No "gap control" with the guy in the most dangerous spot and go get "gap control" with a guy at the blue line?

If you want to blame anyone … it’s Comrie. He should have been more out but seriously you cannot defend a perfect shot and that’s what it was.
The problem with Stanley it seems is his hockey IQ too slow to read the play and react. He seems to been out a position sometimes by taking the wrong man but in this case he played it right. You cover the 2nd guy and leave the shooter for the goalie.

 

[TS Quint]

If you want to blame anyone … it’s Comrie. He should have been more out but seriously you cannot defend a perfect shot and that’s what it was.
The problem with Stanley it seems is his hockey IQ too slow to read the play and react. He seems to been out a position sometimes by taking the wrong man but in this case he played it right. You cover the 2nd guy and leave the shooter for the goalie.View attachment 963807

I don't know how to screen shot but if you stop it once Stanley decides to take Huberdeau (puck carrier about 10ft into the zone) it shows he definitely made the right decision.

Lol, who the hell is Iafallo covering in this shot? "But Stan"...... hahaha

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

If you want to blame anyone … it’s Comrie. He should have been more out but seriously you cannot defend a perfect shot and that’s what it was.
The problem with Stanley it seems is his hockey IQ too slow to read the play and react. He seems to been out a position sometimes by taking the wrong man but in this case he played it right. You cover the 2nd guy and leave the shooter for the goalie.View attachment 963807

Again, Stan takes over the board... but to me this image shows what is wrong with Stan.

No, the goal is not ONLY his fault - but in real time and in this picture, he's the only player not reacting to the play. Pionk is shifting over to cover Stan's guy and actually has better position to breakup the pass

If I am understanding our PK correctly, we would prefer Stan to be about 3-4 steps above his man - to prevent Kuz from having time to think... instead he blocks too early.

Yup its a nice pass, yup its a broken play - but Stan was the only guy not responding to that pass. And the only guy playing a passive PK.

If it was a 'one off' then shit happens but its a fairly consistent pattern on the PK... he plays passive while the rest of the PK is aggressive

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I don't know how to screen shot but if you stop it once Stanley decides to take Huberdeau (puck carrier about 10ft into the zone) it shows he definitely made the right decision.

Lol, who the hell is Iafallo covering in this shot? "But Stan"...... hahaha

Iafallo was pressuring Coleman who is just out of frame - I see we are now entering the 'blame anyone but Stan' part of the convo...

Huberdeau was never the puck carrier.

Lowry pressures 86 like he should, who dumps it to Coleman who Iafallo pressures like he should... Pionk has the puck side of the slot and unfortunately so does Stan...

Yup, Stan is 'fine' he's just not anticipating the play... watch Samberg on any PK and you will see the difference.