Post-Game Talk: Flame Broiled

[Filthy Dangles]

I really can't believe that people could watch a game like last night and think this team has enough talent.

The only guy they have who can take over a game is their goalie.

 

[majordomo]

Hopefully to ask for job interviews for himself.

As I've mentioned before, Drury is a Sather pick: Dolan is not firing Drury without Sather's approval and I doubt Sather is "displeased".

 

[will1066]

The thing I don't get is how they went from President's Trophy to this. I really don't understand it. Yes, they probably overachieved last year but this is a total collapse. Does 1 year older make these players THAT much worse (Kreider, Zibanejad, etc.) ?

It was a perfect storm of off-ice drama and the vet core aging past their primes at the same time. Truly a perfect storm of everything that can go wrong did go wrong. Drury saw it coming but he was in a situation where the only way to get rid of players was go scorched earth, and even then he wasn't able to get rid of all of them. And he made plenty of roster mistakes that he was hell-bound on erasing.

 

[majordomo]

The thing I don't get is how they went from President's Trophy to this. I really don't understand it. Yes, they probably overachieved last year but this is a total collapse. Does 1 year older make these players THAT much worse (Kreider, Zibanejad, etc.) ?

It's really easy to understand......you're see what happens when (a) certain players don't have career years (Panny, Laf, Igor, Trochek to name a few), (b) the PP stops working and (c) goaltending becomes average.

When you think about it, there was no way those three items were going to repeat last year's performance. As for your K & Z question, I would say "yes" -- a year can make a huge difference when you're older.

 

[Captain Lindy]

The thing I don't get is how they went from President's Trophy to this. I really don't understand it. Yes, they probably overachieved last year but this is a total collapse. Does 1 year older make these players THAT much worse (Kreider, Zibanejad, etc.) ?

Also they made it to the final four teams left in the playoffs. It is inexplicable.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Start booking the tee times and vacations fellas!

It's a little thing, but I see that list of attendees, and I appreciate that they showed up today when a lot of the veterans on this team have clearly abandoned ship.

Hopefully we're able to get some more young guys in the lineup for a few games toward the end of the season.

 

[AK 27]

It's really easy to understand......you're see what happens when (a) certain players don't have career years (Panny, Laf, Igor, Trochek to name a few), (b) the PP stops working and (c) goaltending becomes average.

When you think about it, there was no way those three items were going to repeat last year's performance. As for your K & Z question, I would say "yes" -- a year can make a huge difference when you're older.

The only guy I can think of (on the Rangers) where the decline was this noticeable was Brad Richards. I felt like it was night and day with him.

In baseball I remember this happened to Mike Piazza. But once your bat speed slows down, you're done for. Hockey combines a lot more physical elements than baseball does. Still, your skating speed is a huge one.

 

[majordomo]

The only guy I can think of (on the Rangers) where the decline was this noticeable was Brad Richards. I felt like it was night and day with him.

In baseball I remember this happened to Mike Piazza. But once your bat speed slows down, you're done for. Hockey combines a lot more physical elements than baseball does. Still, your skating speed is a huge one.

Don't forget, the Rangers have never been "A TEAM" with great skating speed -- they've had a few players who were speedy (Kreider, Hagelin to name two).

 

[AK 27]

Don't forget, the Rangers have never been "A TEAM" with great skating speed -- they've had a few players who were speedy (Kreider, Hagelin to name two).

No they haven't but they sure have looked much speedier than they have this year! Their transition game is absolutely atrocious! This is why they have so much trouble getting into the offensive zone. It's not just about speed (as you know). It's about crisp / smart passes. Their passes have neither been crisp nor smart. They're just a disaster.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

You basically only get franchise altering forwards in the draft. And with that, usually only in the top ten.

There is a reason a lot of people want to go back to the drawing board and draft high again.

You can't have a winning hockey team going 0-9 drafting in the top 10 in the last 25 years. It's simply unacceptable.

You can say that the Rangers just got "unlucky" with some of those picks, but at some point it's a development infrastructure thing.

Development infrastructure, scouting/ID-ing useful talent, understanding of the game by management ... we seem weak in all these things.

I'm gonna steal that term "development infrastructure." It's good.

 

[Mike in Houston]

It's a little thing, but I see that list of attendees, and I appreciate that they showed up today when a lot of the veterans on this team have clearly abandoned ship.

Hopefully we're able to get some more young guys in the lineup for a few games toward the end of the season.

All of them are there, but not all of them are on the ice. But they are in the building.

It could be like John Tortorella said about Wojtek Wolski once, "We can't get him out of the tub."

 

[Machinehead]

It was a perfect storm of off-ice drama and the vet core aging past their primes at the same time. Truly a perfect storm of everything that can go wrong did go wrong. Drury saw it coming but he was in a situation where the only way to get rid of players was go scorched earth, and even then he wasn't able to get rid of all of them. And he made plenty of roster mistakes that he was hell-bound on erasing.

Also, last year was the perfect storm of everything that could go right, did go right.

They literally outscored their opponents by a single goal at even strength. I know special teams is a thing, but even so, taking a +1 and ordering it such that you win 55 games is almost impossible.

To be clear, I do think they got worse, but the starting point wasn't as high as it appeared to be.

 

[romba]

Premature thread for a flaccid performance was appropriate

 

[ReddestRum]

Start booking the tee times and vacations fellas!

Why the f*** is this skate even optional after that performance last night?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

You basically only get franchise altering forwards in the draft. And with that, usually only in the top ten.

There is a reason a lot of people want to go back to the drawing board and draft high again.

You can't have a winning hockey team going 0-9 drafting in the top 10 in the last 25 years. It's simply unacceptable.

You can say that the Rangers just got "unlucky" with some of those picks, but at some point it's a development infrastructure thing.

There's a reason a lot don't wanna go back to the draft, because we ruin prospects. People dump on Kravtsov and Andersson but they were totally miss managed, Kakko as well, Lafreniere, Robertson, all these guys should be building blocks of this team but here we are, not one of them you can lean on to take the reigns of the this team, two of them were so derailed they've left the continent. I dont want anyone telling me Kravtsov and Andersson were sooks because it was our job to mould these players into NHL'ers, instead our GM shit all over them. Until we address player scouting and development i have no interest in tanking, I'm more comfortable trading our pics away at this point.

 

[noncents]

Development infrastructure, scouting/ID-ing useful talent, understanding of the game by management ... we seem weak in all these things.

I'm gonna steal that term "development infrastructure." It's good.

yup it's why i'm happy as a mets fan. development infrastructure advantages are what pay off.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Talent is not the problem....style, lack of effort and willingness to do what it takes to win are the problems.

Last night the coach was the main problem, making them sit back in the 1-2-2 even when down a goal late in the game.

 

[majordomo]

Last night the coach was the main problem, making them sit back in the 1-2-2 even when down a goal late in the game.

Or when he decided that the Zib-Kreider-Panny line was a viable line again

Or stapling Cuylle to the bench when game was on the line in favor of the usual suspects.

 

[Filip Chytil]

That's a wild stat Giannone pointed out there. Four Rangers forwards had shots on goal last night!

 

[ReddestRum]

Last night the coach was the main problem, making them sit back in the 1-2-2 even when down a goal late in the game.

1-2-2 Lazycheck. Did the one forechecker forget he was supposed to forecheck while the Flames player was standing in the D-zone thinking about dinner?

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

i just want a team that cares. I’d KILL to have the black and blueshirts of 2012 back. Man did I love those guys. Not even close to a top half of the league talent wise but man did those guys leave it ALL on the ice every night. That team would make this current team cry.

While I dont want to overpay for guys like sam bennett and trent frederic, those are the types of guys I want.

We need more dirtbags like sam bennett, trent frederic, hathaway, wilson, kadri and less guys who think this sport is somewhere between figure skating and a skills competition.

We have too many white collar guys who are trying to act like they work on wall street. I want union iron worker types, I want to throw the white collar type players in the hudson

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

i just want a team that cares. I’d KILL to have the black and blueshirts of 2012 back. Man did I love those guys. Not even close to a top half of the league talent wise but man did those guys leave it ALL on the ice every night. That team would make this current team cry.

While I dont want to overpay for guys like sam bennett and trent frederic, those are the types of guys I want.

We need more dirtbags like sam bennett, trent frederic, hathaway, wilson, kadri and less guys who think this sport is somewhere between figure skating and a skills competition.

We have too many white collar guys who are trying to act like they work on wall street. I want union iron worker types, I want to throw the white collar type players in the hudson

MNYRGA!

 

[Overcast]

There's a reason a lot don't wanna go back to the draft, because we ruin prospects. People dump on Kravtsov and Andersson but they were totally miss managed, Kakko as well, Lafreniere, Robertson, all these guys should be building blocks of this team but here we are, not one of them you can lean on to take the reigns of the this team, two of them were so derailed they've left the continent. I dont want anyone telling me Kravtsov and Andersson were sooks because it was our job to mould these players into NHL'ers, instead our GM shit all over them. Until we address player scouting and development i have no interest in tanking, I'm more comfortable trading our pics away at this point.

To me, "building block" players push the matter. They force management's hand and force them to make tough decisions. None of the guys you listed did/have done much in the way of forcing NYR's FO to make any tough decisions elsewhere in the roster.

Laf and Kakko were never going to be anywhere but the NHL based on where they were drafted, and neither have made monumental impacts in the NHL. Would things have been different if they actually did get stapled to the top 6+PP from the start? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. To me, if they were truly in this "building block" category of players, 1) I really don't believe it would have mattered where they started in the lineup, and 2) they would have forced their way up the lineup naturally by capitalizing on the opportunities they did get. Force the coaches/FO to make a tough choice that starts with them saying "We need to find a way to get this kid more ice time because they're showing they can handle themselves." That didn't happen and I'm inclined to believe it's because they just weren't as good as we hoped.

Robertson hasn't progressed enough in the AHL. Krav and Andersson weren't good enough to stick in the NHL - both had chances with 2 orgs, 4 teams between the NHL and AHL - and I don't think any different sort of handling would have changed the fate of either player. If Drury took Krav and Andersson out for a nice steak dinner and whispered sweet nothings to them, would they still be in the NHL? I don't think so.

However, guys like Berard and Edstrom have made the FO reconsider the lineup. Berard drew into 1/3rd of the games this season and Edstrom would still be a regular too if he didn't get injured.

The problem isn't bottom 6 players that this team has issues identifying/drafting/developing, it's top 6 players.

I think it's just kind of hard for us to accept that some of these guys that we end up liking just..suck sometimes, despite NYR being the team that drafted them or where they were drafted. They're not all gonna hit even if NYR could put every single draftee in the best possible position to develop.

I definitely agree that NYR's scouting is absolutely rancid, especially pro scouting. Like, I like Borgen and all but the reports that NYR have been targeting him for years now seems wild to me.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

To me, "building block" players push the matter. They force management's hand and force them to make tough decisions. None of the guys you listed did/have done much in the way of forcing NYR's FO to make any tough decisions elsewhere in the roster.

Laf and Kakko were never going to be anywhere but the NHL based on where they were drafted, and neither have made monumental impacts in the NHL. Would things have been different if they actually did get stapled to the top 6+PP from the start? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. To me, if they were truly in this "building block" category of players, 1) I really don't believe it would have mattered where they started in the lineup, and 2) they would have forced their way up the lineup naturally by capitalizing on the opportunities they did get. Force the coaches/FO to make a tough choice that starts with them saying "We need to find a way to get this kid more ice time because they're showing they can handle themselves." That didn't happen and I'm inclined to believe it's because they just weren't as good as we hoped.

Robertson hasn't progressed enough in the AHL. Krav and Andersson weren't good enough to stick in the NHL - both had chances with 2 orgs, 4 teams between the NHL and AHL - and I don't think any different sort of handling would have changed the fate of either player. If Drury took Krav and Andersson out for a nice steak dinner and whispered sweet nothings to them, would they still be in the NHL? I don't think so.

However, guys like Berard and Edstrom have made the FO reconsider the lineup. Berard drew into 1/3rd of the games this season and Edstrom would still be a regular too if he didn't get injured.

The problem isn't bottom 6 players that this team has issues identifying/drafting/developing, it's top 6 players.

I think it's just kind of hard for us to accept that some of these guys that we end up liking just..suck sometimes, despite NYR being the team that drafted them or where they were drafted. They're not all gonna hit even if NYR could put every single draftee in the best possible position to develop.

I definitely agree that NYR's scouting is absolutely rancid, especially pro scouting. Like, I like Borgen and all but the reports that NYR have been targeting him for years now seems wild to me.

All those players have 1 thing in common, they were better players before ny drafted them. Lafreniere would be a bonafide star in most any other organization. We are the Sabres, the only difference is that we are also the Rangers who can buy their way out of problems. There is absolutely no difference between us and them when it comes to prospects. We ruin them, Lafreniere and Kakko are prime examples of that. The common theme is that they were all good prospects, some can't miss prospects that missed by being drafted by this gong show. Look up our development staff and tell me if you'd hire any of them.

I figure i may as well post this instead.

 

[Overcast]

All those players have 1 thing in common, they were better players before ny drafted them.

Because most players that are true NHL prospects are like 3x bigger and 5x better than their competition when they're kids. They're almost always going to look like worldbeaters when they're 15 being 5'10 185 lbs going to private lessons playing kids that are 5'6 150 and have never considered professional hockey as a career path.