Post-Game Talk: Flame Broiled

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Yeah the Rangers really prioritized strong analytics LMFAO

They traded guys they thought were going down the aging curve, when they werent. Gorton fell in love with the idea of getting younger and bringing in players him and Bobrov thought were highly skilled. And not for nothing but we look exactly like what Toronto would look like if they had Igor. Soft PP merchants being propped up by an elite goalie.

Strong 5v5 play is driven by winning one on one battles all over the ice. The Rangers lack of speed, physicality and willingness to play in traffic are why their analytics suck. not a lack of "skill". Everyone looks slow when they are standing flat-footed all the time. Panarin would be the most skilled player on Florida because they would require him to go to the middle of the ice.. Mika could be an elite 2 way C if a swift wind didnt knock him off the puck and he wasnt obsessed with trying to get his BFF a goal on every play. Fox and lafreniere pout and quit whenever a play gets broken up on them. These are non-negotiable issues that make the team look way worse than it is. It's a deep rooted issue.



Relevant tweet from Pronger for people who have no ability to discern "Tuffnus" from physicality, and how that relates to having strong underlying play.
 
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They traded guys they thought were going down the aging curve, when they werent. Gorton fell in love with the idea of getting younger and bringing in players him and Bobrov thought were highly skilled. And not for nothing but we look exactly like what Toronto would look like if they had Igor. Soft PP merchants being propped up by an elite goalie.

Strong 5v5 play is driven by winning one on one battles all over the ice. The Rangers lack of speed, physicality and willingness to play in traffic are why their analytics suck. not a lack of "skill". Everyone looks slow when they are standing flat-footed all the time. Panarin would be the most skilled player on Florida because they would require him to go to the middle of the ice.. Mika could be an elite 2 way C if a swift wind didnt knock him off the puck and he wasnt obsessed with trying to get his BFF a goal on every play. Fox and lafreniere pout and quit whenever a play gets broken up on them. These are non-negotiable issues that make the team look way worse than it is. It's a deep rooted issue.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this but bringing up Dom L has clear implications and it doesn't make any sense. Knowing how Dom views the game, he probably hates this team as much as any of us. They're been an analytics black hole for a generation.

I don't understand why we argue about this. You need willingness, talent, and good analytics to win the Cup. Most Cup winners had all three. The Rangers have none of them.

They don't have enough talent. The Cup has been monopolized by multiple slam dunk Hall of Famers at forward. We have one borderline Hall of Famer, and let's be honest, there's gotta be a reason he was never drafted and made it to UFA.

Saying the team doesn't have talent doesn't take away from your point that they lack intangibles. Good hockey is good hockey and all aspects of it go hand in hand more often than not.

And like, I understand the fear of becoming the Leafs, who are the one shining example of having the talent and the underlying numbers, and yet it doesn't work. But one, we're not the Leafs! We haven't had a forward, arguably in our history, anywhere near Auston Matthews except a few fleeting moments of Jagr. Certainly not Panarin. If we had talent like that and still didn't win, I would cross that bridge when I got to it. Two, the Leafs arguably don't have the talent because they've never had anything approaching a #1 defenseman.

I'm not against building the team the way you want to build it, and I agree that the style the Hartford guys have is mostly encouraging, but people are absolutely right to look at the pattern among Cup winners and ask where the franchise-altering forward is coming from. And they would be right to ask that with Panarin tbh, so nobody is saying don't move on from the core when they bring up lack of high-end talent.
 
Two, the Leafs arguably don't have the talent because they've never had anything approaching a #1 defenseman.
which is hilarious because yeah let’s trade Fox. We’ve got that part covered but want to get rid of it

And we know the pipeline is just overflowing with 1D prospects. With EJ “can’t score if his life depended on it” Emery leading the way
 
From Drury down to the coach and most of the players - this team is a bunch of losers.

- Drury might not have been the architect behind this roster but he sure has had enough time to try and fix it. He hasn't.

- Laviolette's only actual coaching strategy is to shuffle lines, He makes zero adjustments to what the opposing team is doing.

- The team? What a bunch of passionless, overpaid, sorry excuses for hockey players. They gave up a long time ago. This game was just a culmination of everything that's wrong with them. They have the 'talent' to make the playoffs but the desire is MIA.

What we've learned? This core is just plain weak. They're too easy to play against. It must be nice to be an opposing team knowing that you're not going to ever get hit. That means no second guesses, no listening for footsteps, no pressure. This team is a joke. Just like it was with Lundqvist a lot of the time, without Igor this team is in the basement.

Blow this team up.
 
The reason our power play stinks is the reason the team stinks. They dont charge the net, at least their older core excepting JT Miller, doesnt. They like to f*** around passing and taking occasional 1 timers. Its just a bad movie at this point. The younger guys (excluding Laf who now sucks since he got the $) charge the net. The younger guys, hello Rempe, like to get in the opponents faces but our older core are just a bunch of wussies. The winningest teams like the Panthers and Oilers are aggressive and not afraid of physicality. Our bunch of prima donnas are afraid of physicality. Also, Lavi at this point is like the social worker at a nursing home. They should fire the coaches and get someone who can teach them how to play the whole game like they do when they go for the short handed goals. They need to charge the net and score more goals. No more passing and 1 timers from the perimeter. Stop playing like a bunch of wimps. And the number of sloppy passes and turnovers is ridiculous. This team needs much more rigorous training and a more hard nosed approach.
 
Also, yes, I think there's an important distinction between tovvnuzz, and winning battles, checking, playing directly etc. I hear that.

I also think sometimes we miss an important distinction between forwards who do/have put up a lot of points and a forward who changes your life.

Maybe Panarin at his peak, although I think he was always more of a high A than S-tier. Zibanejad was never a top 10 cener. No, no. Look at me. He was never, ever a top 10 center. You know it's true. He doesn't control the game like that. People who look at analytics would know that.

And this is not to write it off as "oh no, they have all the willingness in the world, and do everything right, they're just bad." No. If they had that element, they would be better players. It goes hand in hand.

"Florida wouldn't allow it." Florida would have gotten rid of them like they did Huberdeau. This is who they are.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this but bringing up Dom L has clear implications and it doesn't make any sense. Knowing how Dom views the game, he probably hates this team as much as any of us. They're been an analytics black hole for a generation.

I don't understand why we argue about this. You need willingness, talent, and good analytics to win the Cup. Most Cup winners had all three. The Rangers have none of them.

They don't have enough talent. The Cup has been monopolized by multiple slam dunk Hall of Famers at forward. We have one borderline Hall of Famer, and let's be honest, there's gotta be a reason he was never drafted and made it to UFA.

Saying the team doesn't have talent doesn't take away from your point that they lack intangibles. Good hockey is good hockey and all aspects of it go hand in hand more often than not.

And like, I understand the fear of becoming the Leafs, who are the one shining example of having the talent and the underlying numbers, and yet it doesn't work. But one, we're not the Leafs! We haven't had a forward, arguably in our history, anywhere near Auston Matthews except a few fleeting moments of Jagr. Certainly not Panarin. If we had talent like that and still didn't win, I would cross that bridge when I got to it. Two, the Leafs arguably don't have the talent because they've never had anything approaching a #1 defenseman.

I'm not against building the team the way you want to build it, and I agree that the style the Hartford guys have is mostly encouraging, but people are absolutely right to look at the pattern among Cup winners and ask where the franchise-altering forward is coming from. And they would be right to ask that with Panarin tbh, so nobody is saying don't move on from the core when they bring up lack of high-end talent.

Saying the Rangers need a franchise altering/leading forward is true but has nothing to do with analytics. Analytics are made up stats that started appearing 15-20 years ago that people (Dom and his checklist is a good example) tried to use as a "blueprint". The problem is that good underlying numbers are a causation of doing all the intangible things right, and having good players and good culture and good coaching. A bad player can have good analytics on Tampa Bay where they play the game the right way and with the right energy and then come to the Rangers and be horrible analytically because we prioritize veteran mercenaries over homegrown guys who might actually care and have the will to win for the team that draft them and gave them a chance. Barclay Goodrow is a good example of this. I know you know this. I think folks treat some of these stats like an unimpeachable dogma sometimes. The Detroit Red Wings didnt win all those Cups in the 90s-200s because their were trying to make their "expected goal share" better. They won because they were able to get the most out of their talented roster AND they had guys who would drag everyone into the fight. It just so happened that led to them having great analytics.

Long story short the Rangers shouldnt be seeking out players who have good analytics. they should be seeking players who play the game the right way. because if there i anything obvious from the post "Rebuild" (dumbest thing ever by the way) Rangers, it's that our top players have an excuse for everything, and they dont go to the front of the net to score or defend. If I had to pinpoint one skill that correlates best with analytics, its that. Where do Mika and Panarin take all their shots from? Trocheck and Kreider would rather deflect a puck from between the circles or side of the net instead of actually screening the goalie and jamming away at a rebound. It's why Cuylle has been out best player. He's in the way of the goal and pucks bounce off and go through him into the crease and havoc is caused. We need more guys like that. Hartford does it, but the Rangers dont.
 
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Saying the Rangers need a franchise altering/leading forward is true but has nothing to do with analytics. Analytics are made up stats that started appearing 15-20 years ago that people (Dom and his checklist is a good example) tried to use as a "blueprint". The problem is that good underlying numbers are a causation of doing all the intangible things right, and having good players and good culture and good coaching. A bad player can have good analytics on Tampa Bay where they play the game the right way and with the right energy and then come to the Rangers and be horrible analytically because we prioritize veteran mercenaries over homegrown guys who might actually care and have the will to win for the team that draft them and gave them a chance. Barclay Goodrow is a good example of this. I know you know this. I think folks treat some of these stats like an unimpeachable dogma sometimes. The Detroit Red Wings didnt win all those Cups in the 90s-200s because their were trying to make their "expected goal share" better. They won because they were able to get the most out of their talented roster AND they had guys who would drag everyone into the fight. It just so happened that led to them having great analytics.

Long story short the Rangers shouldnt be seeking out players who have good analytics. they should be seeking players who play the game the right way. because if there i anything obvious from the post "Rebuild" (dumbest thing ever by the way) Rangers, it's that our top players have an excuse for everything, and they dont go to the front of the net to score or defend. If I had to pinpoint one skill that correlates best with analytics, its that. Where do Mika and Panarin take all their shots from? Trocheck and Kreider would rather deflect a puck from between the circles or side of the net instead of actually screening the goalie and jamming away at a rebound. It's why Cuylle has been out best player. He's in the way of the goal and pucks bounce off and go through him into the crease and havoc is caused. We need more guys like that. Hartford does it, but the Rangers dont.
A guy having good analytics doesn't necessarily translate to bringing that guy in and he does the same thing on your team. Everyone knows that. It can help you find diamonds here and there on an individual level, but no, you shouldn't be building your team based on collecting a bunch of good xGF% players. I don't know who is suggesting that.

I think the issue that people have is that when you suck at analytics for ten years, like the Rangers have, it raises alarm bells despite the team sometimes winning. Has that not been absolutely true?

Saying "the Rangers shouldnt be seeking out players who have good analytics" is like saying "Matt Rempe shouldn't seek out a career in gymnastics." I think it's pretty low on the list as it is. The Rangers are 26th in xGF% since Gorton took over. One thing I can guaran f***ing tee you is that they don't care much about analytics.
 
You basically only get franchise altering forwards in the draft. And with that, usually only in the top ten.

There is a reason a lot of people want to go back to the drawing board and draft high again.

You can't have a winning hockey team going 0-9 drafting in the top 10 in the last 25 years. It's simply unacceptable.

You can say that the Rangers just got "unlucky" with some of those picks, but at some point it's a development infrastructure thing.
 
Earlier in the season they were playing poorly because they were upset about the Trouba stuff, then it was maybe guys had mental health issues, show some respect. What is it now?
 
Team without an analytics department gets accused of becoming too analytically dependent. The comedy never ends.
It's like when people blame the Yankees struggling on being too into analytics and I'm like "a team that hasn't noticed they're dead last in line drive rate since Jeter retired is too into analytics?"

Except at least in baseball, that might be true.
 
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It's like when people blame the Yankees struggling on being too into analytics and I'm like "a team that hasn't noticed they're dead last in line drive rate since Jeter retired is too into analytics?"

Except at least in baseball, that might be true.
At least the Yankees have been elite offensively for most of the last 10 years. The Rangers have been asscheeks in terms of analytics like @Bob Richards mentioned since they made the cup. In 2014. 2014. So the idea that the Rangers are a team that people who are well-versed in analytics would ever herald is comical. It belies a lack of knowledge quite frankly.
 
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At least the Yankees have been elite offensively for most of the last 10 years. The Rangers have been asscheeks in terms of analytics like @Bob Richards mentioned since they made the cup. In 2014. 2014. So the idea that the Rangers are a team that people who are versed in analytics would ever herald is comical. It belies a lack of knowledge quite frankly.
The Yankees get too much up their own ass sometimes with the niche they're good at, but at least just hitting a bunch of homeruns can literally work.

The Rangers are also up their own ass with the style they play and it doesn't work.
 
which is hilarious because yeah let’s trade Fox. We’ve got that part covered but want to get rid of it

And we know the pipeline is just overflowing with 1D prospects. With EJ “can’t score if his life depended on it” Emery leading the way
I don think anyone on here has said Fox is a terrible D, in his current state he just isn't enough to take the team over the top. When was the last time you saw him dominate a game in the way Karlsson/Hedman used to or Makar/Hughes currently do? Even Charlie McAvoy looked light years better than Fox this year. He has clearly regressed the last few years and the question then becomes is it due to the scheme, injuries/wear & tear, or has he given into that country club attitude so many past and current ranges seem to fall victim too.
Given the amount of money this team has tied up in NMCs and m-NTCs in the coming years, I'd rather move him and try to get a haul for him before we have another Kreider situation where most teams won't want to touch him.
 
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