Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[roon]

Historically the probability of an accusation being a false accusation is incredibly low and shouldn't be treated as if it's an equal possibility based solely on"it's happened before"

You seem to be willing to throw out the presumption of innocence based upon the word of an individual - I am not. There is a reason individuals that feel the way you do rarely make it to juries - you simply couldn't be impartial.

 

[Jared Dunn]

You seem to be willing to throw out the presumption of innocence based upon the word of an individual - I am not. There is a reason individuals that feel the way you do rarely make it to juries - you simply couldn't be impartial.

Holy mother of god if you think your incredibly clear biases wouldn't have you thrown off a jury LOL

 

[Edgelord]

Because it's difficult work that they didn't want to do until pressured beyond ignoring it being an option, especially when you're painting it with this "money and fame" brush that doesn't apply to this situation in any capacity

I'm not saying it has anything to do with money or fame

 

[DuklaNation]

My impression is that even if all the charges are dropped, the player's careers are in jeopardy regardless.

 

[Rich Nixon]

that does pose the question, when did London PD get the info, if soon after why no charges till now?

Why just Hockey Canada? Genuinely curious if that is the first step for a victim in this instance? I would think it could have been a criminal matter from the start?

That will be a major, major point to evaluate when this is all over. The initial investigation was closed very quickly, and this did not reopen until after it became known that Hockey Canada had settled this case and others out of a slush fund set aside particularly for this purpose.

The police often need public pressure to do their jobs. No police force wants to dive into a case this complicated and hard-to-prove and frankly, this depressing and controversial. There have been some harsh critiques of their first crack at this. Some of the inadequacies of that first investigation are laid out in this article from last year: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/poli...r-hockey-sexual-assault-allegations-1.6741216

 

[Jared Dunn]

I'm not saying it has anything to do with money or fame

Sorry, I added that bit to the wrong reply.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

My impression is that even if all the charges are dropped, the player's careers are in jeopardy regardless.

Definitely. If it appears their conduct and actions are unacceptable, it won’t matter if they get found not guilty. If they do get found not guilty, it doesn’t mean their conduct and actions were acceptable.

 

[RooBicks]

Where are you finding those details?

Multiple articles available through a simple google search...

You seem to be willing to undertake mental gymnastics that I am not. "Clearly being coerced" - Maybe, but that's quite a leap. It took 5 years for authorities to find enough of this overwhelming evidence to file charges?

What historical context of SA allegations would you like to have inform the process?

Direct quote to a crying young woman: "Say it."

If the conclusion you draw from this, having truly scoured all the publicly available evidence, is that the police and hockey Canada thoroughly investigated this and found the evidence wanting, I don't know what to say. The incident was reported to police within hours of it happening, and there has clearly been an effort to protect these players from facing full consequences. We know about Hockey Canada's "slush fund" to pay off sexual assault victims, and it has only been due to the public outcry that the police have finally begun to treat this incident as seriously as it deserved to be treated from day 1.

There is no question at all that this is not a "wild night someone regrets" kind of situation - it's a gang rape that was immediately reported to police after the victim's parents found her shaking uncontrollably and barely coherent in a deeply traumatized state that was then ignored by the authorities until some good journalism unearthed and publicized the facts.

 

[Edgelord]

That will be a major, major point to evaluate when this is all over. The initial investigation was closed very quickly, and this did not reopen until after it became known that Hockey Canada had settled this case and others out of a slush fund set aside particularly for this purpose.

The police often need public pressure to do their jobs. No police force wants to dive into a case this complicated and hard-to-prove and frankly, this depressing and controversial. There have been some harsh critiques of their first crack at this. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/poli...r-hockey-sexual-assault-allegations-1.6741216

Another aspect is the potential make up of the jury, London has a very diverse population and many newer members to Canada may have very conservative opinions about sex.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It seems like its your choice to see in that context.

Enlighten me. What else is it doing?

 

[MXD]

Definitely. If it appears their conduct and actions are unacceptable, it won’t matter if they get found not guilty. If they do get found not guilty, it doesn’t mean their conduct and actions were acceptable.

More importantly, it doesn't mean they didn't do what they were charged of; it just means it couldn't be proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

[Danarqhy]

Another aspect is the potential make up of the jury, London has a very diverse population and many newer members to Canada may have very conservative opinions about sex.

Yep, and also the male to female ratio. I remember reading in the Jake Virtanen case that it was 8 males and 4 females. Imagine they get 8 females and 4 males in this one? All these things could definitely be a factor at the end of the day.

 

[Golden_Jet]

my gut feeling is not many want a trial, the optics on the NHL wouldn't be good by association, plus it seems like the case isn't a slam dunk.
I really think it gets plead down to some form a severe sexual misconduct for some and 1 or 2 get more serious charges. But thats nothing more than a gut feeling.

It will be sexual assault level 1 likely, (if proven beyond a reasonable doubt)

as 2 involves a weapon and threats to a third party,
and level 3 is aggravated sexual assault resulting in wounds, maims etc to victim.

 

[Yukon Joe]

that does pose the question, when did London PD get the info, if soon after why no charges till now?

The reporting has been that London Police Service (LPS) was notified almost immediately, invesitaged, and closed it's file. Then as a result of the lawsuit they re-opened their investigation which has now led to charges years later.

All of which I am sure is going to get litigated.

 

[M88K]

how did this reach 115 pages

Because you don't have a higher setting on replies per page. I'm chilling down at 96

 

[Edgelord]

Yep, and also the male to female ratio. I remember reading in the Jake Virtanen case that it was 8 males and 4 females. Imagine they get 8 females and 4 males in this one? All these things could definitely be a factor at the end of the day.

IMO no matter what all the guys involved are tarnished.
Lets say it was all consensual, to treat her like mentioned in the allegations is appalling to me. Like hell if you find a woman down for something like that, at least treat her with a modicum of respect ffs.
Then on the other side the thought of her being scared and these guys doing whats alleged just gets me soo pissed off.
Saying all that, I still recognize its going to be a tough case

 

[Yukon Joe]

It will be sexual assault level 1 likely, (if proven beyond a read doubt)

as 2 involves a weapon and threats to a third party,
and level 3 is aggravated sexual assault resulting in wounds, maims etc to victim.

I've never in my life heard of "sex assault level 1".

But you are correct - the charges are s. 271 sexual assault, s. 272 sex assault cause bodily harm/with a weapon/choking, and s. 273 aggravated sexual assault.

 

[Edgelord]

Because you don't have a higher setting on replies per page. I'm chilling down at 96

what is this magic you speak of?

 

[Korpse]

Two different things can be true at the same time. "Men should not rape women" and "women should avoid putting themselves in vulnerable situations" can both be true.

This level of victim blaming is shocking. Your argument boils down to stating that the victim should not associate with men. Alcohol isn't the problem, from what's been reported she went back to the hotel with one player and that was consensual. That wasn't an issue. The situation got out of hand when other players were invited to the room after the fact. Rather than telling the victim not to associate with men, perhaps men could conduct them selves in a better manner and not consume alcohol to the point where they don't engage in sexual abuse.

 

[Yukon Joe]

You seem to be willing to throw out the presumption of innocence based upon the word of an individual - I am not. There is a reason individuals that feel the way you do rarely make it to juries - you simply couldn't be impartial.

With respect you have no idea how juries are selected in Canada.

There's no questioning (absent a challenge for cause), and no pre-emptory challenges. If you show up and your name is selected, unless you try to plead to be excused you're on the jury.

This level of victim blaming is shocking. Your argument boils down to stating that the victim should not associate with men. Alcohol isn't the problem, from what's been reported she went back to the hotel with one player and that was consensual. That wasn't an issue. The situation got out of hand when other players were invited to the room after the fact.

I've very carefully avoided commenting on the allegations themselves.

 

[Danarqhy]

IMO no matter what all the guys involved are tarnished.
Lets say it was all consensual, to treat her like mentioned in the allegations is appalling to me. Like hell if you find a woman down for something like that, at least treat her with a modicum of respect ffs.
Then on the other side the thought of her being scared and these guys doing whats alleged just gets me soo pissed off.
Saying all that, I still recognize its going to be a tough case

100%. I think just reading everything that we know about the case so far most people with a conscience know that something wrong happened that night. If she was clearly all in on the gang bang why would she be sobbing back and forth in the shower after she got home? It's definitely going to be a tough case because all SA cases are, and if it does indeed go to trial the final verdict will likely rely on just how credible E.M. is as a witness.

 

[ERYX]

Court filing reveals new details about alleged Hockey Canada group sexual assault

Some sections of the document have been redacted, but it provides the fullest picture to date of what allegedly transpired in the early morning hours of June 19, 2018

www.theglobeandmail.com

The players, through their lawyers, released statements. The general facts surrounding what happened appear to be agreed upon (how EM met Player 1, that they had sex, that other guys showed up, etc) between E.M. and the accused. Some other stuff you can probably deduce from what the players didn't say, such as they didn't refute the claims that the players brought golf clubs (can probably easily be proven with surveillance video).

It is not entirely clear from that article which details are allegations by police/the complainant, and what details were actually admitted by the players. Although it is clear that several of these guys gave statements to police which is generally not a good thing if one is hoping to be acquitted. They got bad advice (in my view) from whoever told them to talk to police (maybe they didn't seek legal advice first).

This is why trials are needed, to see what the actual details were. There certainly appears to be acknowledgement/admission of some broader details such as how she met player 1, that they went back to his room, and that a bunch of other players showed up afterwards. I don't see anyone admitting to rape.

Player 2 also admitted that he didn't even talk to E.M. before engaging in sexual acts, which IMO is a huge deal considering E.M. says she never gave consent to the extra players. I'm sure there will be a complicit or tacit consent argument made in court though. There's lots other stuff in there, that's the best read on the matter I've seen so far.

Well, in Canadian law there's no such thing as tacit or implied consent. There must be communicated consent or, at minimum, "an honest but mistaken belief in communicated consent". The consent doesn't necessarily have to be verbal, but there has to be some clearly communicated consent and "reasonable steps" must have been taken to confirm that consent.

The linked article claims that there are videos showing the complainant saying she was "okay with this" which if actually true, would be communicated consent it seems to me. I appreciate that she says she just said this because she felt she had no choice, a judge or jury will have to judge for themselves based on the actual videos.

 

[HBK27]

what is this magic you speak of?

If you go into your settings -> preferences, you can increase the amount of posts per page to 30. I'm on page 98 now with this setting.

 

[M88K]

what is this magic you speak of?

In preferences

 

[Sensatauro]

how is that a bad take?
IMO a man is someone who wouldn't do something like this

You're one of the worst posters in this thread in regards to anything useful. You come in trying to act like some beacon of knowledge yet consistently you're out of line. Your name is so fitting.

I'm not gonna speculate, but Feb 5 will be an interesting day. As an astrologer, I can say some interesting things will be brought to light.