Fire Tocchet

[Neighborhood Coyote]

I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I think RT is better at coaching 3rd/4th liners than he is at coaching the offensively talented players. When we had all those injuries last year, it felt like the system was working better with less offensive talent. Except that goals were hard to come by. It just seems like he can get more out of an Archibald or a Cousins vs getting more out of a Keller or Kessel when they play his system. Like his system rewards defensive hustle but doesn't really let players be very offensive.

Maybe just coincidence.

But right now the team isn't even playing the system well in general and it's been like that for a while. It's been a bit ugly.

 

[cobra427]

RT has not proven he is a good HC in the NHL, but I agree he won't get fired during the season as he is Chayka's boy.

I think RT was Barroway's boy, not Chayka's. Never the less, Chayka and or the new owner won't fire him now. I honestly don't think he should be fired now anyway, we are in a playoff spot mid-January, kind of where we should be.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think RT was Barroway's boy, not Chayka's.

He was Chayka's. IIRC Toc came in with a really compelling PowerPoint, which Chayka liked. In fairness, (again IIRC) there wasn't a whole lot of competition for that job at the time.

 

[rt]

I think RT was Barroway's boy, not Chayka's. Never the less, Chayka and or the new owner won't fire him now. I honestly don't think he should be fired now anyway, we are in a playoff spot mid-January, kind of where we should be.

I don't agree. I think Tocchet was very much Chayka's pick. Chayka gushed so much about him that it was actually unprofessional and alienating to the other candidates. I remember being worried about burned bridges and a little annoyed at how much Chayka was gushing. Saying he blew every other candidate completely out of the water, and it wasn't even close, and it was an easy choice, etc. Just very unprofessional, I thought at the time.

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

I think RT was Barroway's boy, not Chayka's. Never the less, Chayka and or the new owner won't fire him now. I honestly don't think he should be fired now anyway, we are in a playoff spot mid-January, kind of where we should be.

This is what made me think it was Barroway, too: (from NHL.com)

Regarding Tocchet, Barroway said:
"In my mind, he's a Philly guy like me. (He's) a scrapper. Philly people have attitudes with a natural chip on our shoulder. I like his intensity and the fact that he's beloved; by the communities where he's played and by his players (as a coach). They all want to play for 'Toc.'"

 

[RemoAZ]

I don't agree. I think Tocchet was very much Chayka's pick. Chayka gushed so much about him that it was actually unprofessional and alienating to the other candidates. I remember being worried about burned bridges and a little annoyed at how much Chayka was gushing. Saying he blew every other candidate completely out of the water, and it wasn't even close, and it was an easy choice, etc. Just very unprofessional, I thought at the time.

This is correct. The owner might have liked him but Chayka talked like he had a poster of Tocc on his wall when he was a kid. Chayka's guy all the way.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't agree. I think Tocchet was very much Chayka's pick. Chayka gushed so much about him that it was actually unprofessional and alienating to the other candidates. I remember being worried about burned bridges and a little annoyed at how much Chayka was gushing. Saying he blew every other candidate completely out of the water, and it wasn't even close, and it was an easy choice, etc. Just very unprofessional, I thought at the time.

Yup, you are right.

 

[cobra427]

This is correct. The owner might have liked him but Chayka talked like he had a poster of Tocc on his wall when he was a kid. Chayka's guy all the way.

Did Chayka say that to pat the owner on the back and validate him? Or did he think Tocc was the guy on his own? Hard to say, but I guess it doesn't matter, Tocc isn't getting fired even this summer if we miss the playoffs.

 

[Jakey53]

Did Chayka say that to pat the owner on the back and validate him? Or did he think Tocc was the guy on his own? Hard to say, but I guess it doesn't matter, Tocc isn't getting fired even this summer if we miss the playoffs.

Who knows, and I guess who cares, all I want is the playoffs. If we miss, RT deserves to be fired. Will he be fired is another story. If not, Chayka is putting his job on the line also. I know the owner acts like he loves these two, but those feelings can change pretty fast in the sports world.

 

[AZviaNJ]

He was Chayka's. IIRC Toc came in with a really compelling PowerPoint, which Chayka liked. In fairness, (again IIRC) there wasn't a whole lot of competition for that job at the time.

I think Todd Nelson was in contention for the job, and to a lesser degree Sheldon Keefe.

 

[AZviaNJ]

The Coyotes are a real NHL team now and with it comes real NHL challenges, like the expectation to win.

No longer will a lame duck coach survive for 5 years without making the playoffs (and manage to get promoted!), which was longest playoff-less stint across the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL in the decade, any coach experienced.

As we've seen already, Meruelo "sure as sh*t"expects to win and win now.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Chayka stood with him during that 20 game winless streak or whatever it was and he’ll stick with him now.

Apart from a few players who always bring a consistent effort (namely Hall, Garland, and Chychrun) there are far too many who are inconsistent from an urgency perspective and yet others who seem complacent far more often than not.

I don’t know what the truth is. But from a fan’s perspective much of the team, especially the leadership group and the core (OEL, Kessel, Goligoski, Stepan, Keller, and Schmaltz) APPEAR to be complacent, lackadaisical, and nonchalant regardless of situation. Big game, small game, heated game, structures game, losing streak, winning streak, protecting lead, chasing game, whatever, etc.

So what’s the problem? Did the GM bring in and lock up a leadership group/core that is too passive and indifferent? Or is the coach failing to get what we need out of these guys? I don’t think any of us fans can know the answer.

One thing to consider with Tocchet was that the Penguins changed coaches at least once when he was an assistant. Wouldn't it make sense to make the assistant a head coach? The fact that he wasn't named a head coach might be something that makes you wonder why that wasn't the case. Sullivan was the head coach at AHL Wilkes-Barre at the time and was pulled up to the NHL. Not certain how often it happens where assistants are kept, but one of them is not named the (interim) head coach.

Anyhow, I think that we have a system that is predicated on quick turn-around and transition. We are not the type of team who will grind out the cycle game in the offensive zone and wear you down. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Our issue has been primarily that for the games when our transition game has not been up to par, it is more a result of bad shots and pucks not going into the net. We have a team that is built to create havoc from the center line to the opposition blue line. But, the cost comes in that we are not an overly effective team in the defensive zone. We lack the ability to match up effectively to a strong cycling team. We play a lot of coverage and passing the player with the puck to another, which is usually a sign of not having talented enough man-to-man defenders (not saying that it can't be done or that we don't have the players to play man-to-man, but we just don't do so often). I do believe that this can limit our effectiveness, because we are the team with the gameplan that other teams are supposed to have to react to. Which we have seen more often than not. It's when team are able to weather our transition game where we sort of have a "What do we do except play the way we know how to?" feel to it. We'll still get an occasional goal here and there in games as a result, but enough damage has been done to where the Coyotes can't effectively come back.

I hated Tocchet in his first year, and kind of came along as we see all the pieces fit together, from Chayka's moves to update the roster down to Tocchet's coaching. I love what Chayka has done. I like what Tocchet has done, but am still slightly ambivalent. For what its worth, we basically have a similar situation with Tocchet as we did with Tippett. Whether the name is Moss or Kessel, Jooris or Stepan, etc. - certain players are going to play because we can trust that they shouldn't beat themselves. Our wins have come as total team efforts, with great goaltending. Much like the Tip teams, we have some decent centers, but don't have the true #1 C that is needed. We have made steps in adding talent, but overall, this looks very similar to what was said is not needed:

Inconsistent offensive play built off of sound defense and goaltending
A team that doesn't get into fights and tries to stay away from the rough stuff
A coach who has his favorites that people don't understand why a certain player is played

The major difference is that I felt like Tippett made a lot of adjustments in game and had his team prepared to counter attack. Not certain if we are the counter attack type with Tocchet.

 

[Fatass]

Is the issue the coach, or breaking up team chemistry (all guys pulling the D minded system together) by bringing in Hall? Team was doing great before that trade, no?

 

[BUX7PHX]

Is the issue the coach, or breaking up team chemistry (all guys pulling the D minded system together) by bringing in Hall? Team was doing great before that trade, no?

Well, we did tell the players that we would have Hall play his game and we would adjust to him. I am certain that was meant for two reasons: 1) to get Hall to play like we envisioned him to play and not have to worry about fitting in and b) as a former #1 OA pick, he is the type of player that should naturally elevate those players around him.

I do wonder if there was that "honeymoon" phase where the excitement of adding Hall and knowing that he would help our offense made us think a little less defensively, at least while Hall was picking up our system.

But Hall has also performed well (better here than NJ, based on stats alone. 15 in 16 games (7 goals, only one on the PP) is exactly what was needed for this team. I also looked into where we were at on a GAA pre and post-Hall. Pre-Hall, we were giving up the 2nd lowest GAA in the league, at 2.42, I think. Post-Hall, we were somewhere in the middle, at something like 3.00 GAA. The interesting thing is that scoring, on average, has gone way up since that timeframe. As an example, the first time 3.00 showed up in GAA before Dec 12th, I believe that about 17 teams were lower than 3.00 GAA. Take the average from Dec 13th to present, and that number dropped to 9 teams under 3.00 GAA.

So, I think some of this also has to do with familiarity of entire teams and opening up games a little bit more with additional tape on defenses and becoming more comfortable in systems. Concerning that we are falling off in GAA, but recall that at least part of the time, this was done without our top 2 goalies and missing Hjalmarsson. Still a lot to work on and improve upon, but some of the increases in scoring against are not only being seen by Arizona, either.

 

[Fatass]

Well, we did tell the players that we would have Hall play his game and we would adjust to him. I am certain that was meant for two reasons: 1) to get Hall to play like we envisioned him to play and not have to worry about fitting in and b) as a former #1 OA pick, he is the type of player that should naturally elevate those players around him.

I do wonder if there was that "honeymoon" phase where the excitement of adding Hall and knowing that he would help our offense made us think a little less defensively, at least while Hall was picking up our system.

But Hall has also performed well (better here than NJ, based on stats alone. 15 in 16 games (7 goals, only one on the PP) is exactly what was needed for this team. I also looked into where we were at on a GAA pre and post-Hall. Pre-Hall, we were giving up the 2nd lowest GAA in the league, at 2.42, I think. Post-Hall, we were somewhere in the middle, at something like 3.00 GAA. The interesting thing is that scoring, on average, has gone way up since that timeframe. As an example, the first time 3.00 showed up in GAA before Dec 12th, I believe that about 17 teams were lower than 3.00 GAA. Take the average from Dec 13th to present, and that number dropped to 9 teams under 3.00 GAA.

So, I think some of this also has to do with familiarity of entire teams and opening up games a little bit more with additional tape on defenses and becoming more comfortable in systems. Concerning that we are falling off in GAA, but recall that at least part of the time, this was done without our top 2 goalies and missing Hjalmarsson. Still a lot to work on and improve upon, but some of the increases in scoring against are not only being seen by Arizona, either.

Hall gets a lot of minutes, so maybe his poor D game contributes to worse team defensive stats?

 

[rt]

Hall gets a lot of minutes, so maybe his poor D game contributes to worse team defensive stats?

Absolutely not. He's twice as good as our next best player. He's the best player we've had in 20 years.

 

[Jamieh]

Absolutely not. He's twice as good as our next best player. He's the best player we've had in 20 years.

How much would you offer him?? I'm kidding, I know how much. Whatever he wants.

 

[rt]

How much would you offer him?? I'm kidding, I know how much. Whatever he wants.

I'd probably take one Hall over two Kellers.

 

[Jamieh]

I'd probably take one Hall over two Kellers.

Yeah there is just something about those legitimate stars.

 

[Lawson of Anarchy]

Hall gets a lot of minutes, so maybe his poor D game contributes to worse team defensive stats?

I haven't seen Hall play poor defensively.

 

[rt]

I haven't seen Hall play poor defensively.

I’ve seen him work his balls off every shift and play consistently with fire. He and Garland and Chychrun are the most competitive players on the team. Sometimes the only ones.

 

[Jakey53]

I’ve seen him work his balls off every shift and play consistently with fire. He and Garland and Chychrun are the most competitive players on the team. Sometimes the only ones.

Hall has opened many eyes of posters on this board. If Keller and Schmaltz had half the passion of Hall they would be star players.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Taylor Hall plays like Taylor Hall. Schmaltz and Keller play like Schmaltz and Keller. I would suggest "many on this board" watch a little more hockey, if this has opened their eyes.

 

[PainForShane]

we were giving up the 2nd lowest GAA in the league, at 2.42, I think. Post-Hall, we were somewhere in the middle, at something like 3.00 GAA.

imo this is because Kuemps went down right before the Hall acq. Both Raanta and Hill haven't been nearly the same level, not really their fault (Hill has been an AHL goalie, he did well in his callup), it just shows how dominant Kuemps was imo

I'd probably take one Hall over two Kellers.

I would too honestly. But 2 Kellers is 14.3m cap hit per year (McDavid is highest paid player at 12.5m cap hit). Just something to keep in mind going forward (hopefully Keller matures into something resembling that contract

 

[Jakey53]

Taylor Hall plays like Taylor Hall. Schmaltz and Keller play like Schmaltz and Keller. I would suggest "many on this board" watch a little more hockey, if this has opened their eyes.

It's one thing to watch a McDavid, Hall, MacKinnon and the like a couple of games a year, quite another to watch a star on your team to see how much better they actually are when comparing them side by side. I for one knew Hall was a good player but I never followed his career closely, and only watched him when he played the Coyotes. I have been pleasantly surprised how good he is. He has opened my eyes.