Fire Luke Richardson

[hockeydoug]

Boy I hope someone tells Duncan Keith, Alex Debrincat, Kiril Kaprizov, Nikita Kucherov, Nick Lidstrom, Corey Crawford, Kris Letang, Brad Marchand, Patrice Bergeron, and many other non top 10 picks they were a waste of time. Its as if the draft is a crapshoot and you have a better chance of getting a good player if you have more darts to throw at the board who could have thought such a crazy concept?

Lidstrom? Why not just go to Bobby Clarke?

All 3 first rounders in the 2022 draft were a part of the initial start of the rebuild and in that draft we walked in not even having our own pick that was at #6. 2023 was the first real draft for KD where he wasnt walking into a complete shitshow that Bowman left for him.

If you add last season's vezina winner and a top pair D in Seth Jones only to miss the playoffs and end up as the 6th worst team in the league it is time to rebuild.

Who argued against a rebuild again? I must have missed that.

Detroit drafted one whole time within the top 5 in part due to them never tearing it down. They let Datsyuk ride off into the sunset only to stay mediocre for far too long after. Perhaps this may be new information but this isnt football you cant rebuild a team off of two drafts lol it can take time. Hawks spent 6 years between getting Keith, Kane, Crawford, Big Buff, Toews, Hjalmarsson, between 2002 to 2007. They got 2 of those players through lottery luck, they got the rest through you guessed it having multiple picks in those drafts which allowed them to take some big swings on said players.

Such a meatball take. I reference 5 years out of 8 of drafting in Detroit and you talk about rebuilding in 2.

 

[ColbyChaos]

"Record setting failure"

The 2017 Avs, 2021 Wings, Sharks this year all saying hold my beer.

This clown is talking about record setting failure

Every West team in the playoffs have won more games this season than the Sharks did the last 2 years combined.

"Record setting failure"

 

[Pez68]

This thread is a cluster f***. Give it up guys. Lol

 

[ColbyChaos]

Lidstrom? Why not just go to Bobby Clarke?

Who argued against a rebuild again? I must have missed that.

You constantly argue against one critical component of rebuilding by not even valuing picks outside of the top 10. No surprise you missed it since in your mind basically any pick outside of the top 10 is just fetish talk never mind the fact that every cup winning team has had several

Such a meatball take. I reference 5 years out of 8 of drafting in Detroit and you talk about rebuilding in 2.

As I said you want to mention Detroit having 23 picks in rounds 1-3 from 2017-21 as some sort of gotcha against what KD is doing (while ignoring that 11 of those 23 picks in that time frame were just 3rd rounders to try and dishonestly help your argument). Not all draft picks are equal there is a hell of a difference to having multiple first and 2nd round picks vs having a bunch of 3rd rounders in a cherry picked time frame.

As it has been said it takes several years to rebuild properly so that will include bad seasons if you want a better chance of drafting impact players it also helps to have more shots on the board especially in the early rounds as extra picks in rounds 1 and 2 are a lot better on average than extra picks beyond that.

What you dont mention is how looking at Detroit you can see a clear shift from when Holland was GM to Yzerman (2019-onward) as even Yzerman has seen the team pick in the first two rounds a lot more than just once per draft and coincidentally enough the teams future out look has improved due to having a much better farm system thanks to all those useless fetishy picks.

You spent this entire season pissed the Hawks didnt sign several high value UFAs to make the team better while stupidly ignoring that a top 3 pick that would most likely help the team long term more than any FAs would.

If you are upset that a rebuilding team is bad then dont cheer for a rebuilding team lol it is that simple.

 

[hockeydoug]

"Record setting failure"

The 2017 Avs, 2021 Wings, Sharks this year all saying hold my beer.

This clown is talking about record setting failure

Every West team in the playoffs have won more games this season than the Sharks did the last 2 years combined.

"Record setting failure"

The Coyotes had 500 more shots against than the 17 Avs. Sakic made Bednar stick to a script. There doesn't seem to be one in Chicago except to favor depth defensive play over everything else. The wings were worse than this year's Hawks team...but they couldn't pull off some of LR's statistical feats despite their best effort.

You constantly argue against one critical component of rebuilding by not even valuing picks outside of the top 10. No surprise you missed it since in your mind basically any pick outside of the top 10 is just fetish talk never mind the fact that every cup winning team has had several


As I said you want to mention Detroit having 23 picks in rounds 1-3 from 2017-21 as some sort of gotcha against what KD is doing (while ignoring that 11 of those 23 picks in that time frame were just 3rd rounders to try and dishonestly help your argument). Not all draft picks are equal there is a hell of a difference to having multiple first and 2nd round picks vs having a bunch of 3rd rounders in a cherry picked time frame.

As it has been said it takes several years to rebuild properly so that will include bad seasons if you want a better chance of drafting impact players it also helps to have more shots on the board especially in the early rounds as extra picks in rounds 1 and 2 are a lot better on average than extra picks beyond that.

What you dont mention is how looking at Detroit you can see a clear shift from when Holland was GM to Yzerman (2019-onward) as even Yzerman has seen the team pick in the first two rounds a lot more than just once per draft and coincidentally enough the teams future out look has improved due to having a much better farm system thanks to all those useless fetishy picks.

You spent this entire season pissed the Hawks didnt sign several high value UFAs to make the team better while stupidly ignoring that a top 3 pick that would most likely help the team long term more than any FAs would.

If you are upset that a rebuilding team is bad then dont cheer for a rebuilding team lol it is that simple.

Bruh

The probability of drafting a top9/top4 type in the 2nd within 7 years is at best about 12% in good years. Turning into a core type is 2.5-4%. This is not new stuff. They have all the time and money and their own picks to build depth.

Have you looked at how all those top 32-75 picks are moving along in Detroit from Steve's first 3 drafts btw? Of the 11 picks in that range, maybe Mazur and Wallinder stick in the top9/4 type role. Both were Detroit's own picks too, so you're helping me make my point about not needing to go all in on a bunch of extra picks 25-75 range.

I was pissed KD didn't have more NHL talent and less injury risk. They got slower and more injury prone overall. It was worse than I would have predicted but the design sucked. They needed 2 more middle 6 skaters and at least 1 more scoring AHL+ center for Rockford to be more useful for all the defensemen.

I didn't think Richardson would be as poor.

 

[statswatcher]

Reichel-somebody got it wrong somewhere
Soderblom-somebody got it wrong somewhere

very cool that you were able to extend the list of "under-performing players" by one over what i granted you, and that one is a journeyman goalie whose never posted a .900+ sv% in an nhl season and entered this season 2-12-2. try not to get so many woodchips in the sauce as you scrape the bottom of that barrel.

Record setting failure is usually grounds for dismissal in any occupation. Not a hard concept.

"usually" is doing the work of ignoring the entire discussion about the potentially extenuating circumstance of having a team this bad. if my boss gave me shit as unworkable as this roster and blaimed me when i got shittier results than he wanted, i would be confused to say the least.

There is no team identity.

i don't care to argue that point because it's actually meaningless.

Put 4 right shooters on the pp, pull the rookie for a bad drop pass. Tinordi dresses, a whole line gets benched for a period (accountability)

these are the only half-way salient items you've brought up, and they amount to "bad team can't ice an nhl powerplay" (something i went over in another thread i think roster talk when i demonstrated that the players on this roster with like two or three exceptions have basically no special teams experience in the nhl), "rookies playing out of their depth occasionally make dumb plays and lose ice time" (while this team dresses the youngest d-core and fourth youngest team in the league without even considering injuries), "bad team dresses bad defensemen" (which is really a matter of KD keeping him on the roster, so i accept that as a point against KD but not lurich), and "a line with lukas reichel on it got benched for a period in one game where they weren't even playing great and i simply cannot stop thinking about it several months later."

 

[hockeydoug]

very cool that you were able to extend the list of "under-performing players" by one over what i granted you, and that one is a journeyman goalie whose never posted a .900+ sv% in an nhl season and entered this season 2-12-2. try not to get so many woodchips in the sauce as you scrape the bottom of that barrel.

Soderblom, KK, Guttman had slightly higher expectations.

Kaiser never should have started the year up. Entwistle never turned the corner, R Johnson didn't turn the corner, Anderson didn't do anything else, couldn't give Raddysh away. None of the the cost controlled players except Vlasic exceeded expectations. Most of those guys weren't supposed to do anything, but that more underwhelmed than progressed as several regressed says something could go a little better.

"usually" is doing the work of ignoring the entire discussion about the potentially extenuating circumstance of having a team this bad. if my boss gave me shit as unworkable as this roster and blaimed me when i got shittier results than he wanted, i would be confused to say the least.

i don't care to argue that point because it's actually meaningless.

So what did they learn on the pp or pk? The "shit roster" thing doesn't explain tonight's 4 shot first period with 8 players fighting to play in the league next year.

these are the only half-way salient items you've brought up, and they amount to "bad team can't ice an nhl powerplay" (something i went over in another thread i think roster talk when i demonstrated that the players on this roster with like two or three exceptions have basically no special teams experience in the nhl), "rookies playing out of their depth occasionally make dumb plays and lose ice time" (while this team dresses the youngest d-core and fourth youngest team in the league without even considering injuries), "bad team dresses bad defensemen" (which is really a matter of KD keeping him on the roster, so i accept that as a point against KD but not lurich), and "a line with lukas reichel on it got benched for a period in one game where they weren't even playing great and i simply cannot stop thinking about it several months later."

The biggest problem is KK wasn't allowed to make many mistakes with the limited NHL talent. They aren't getting the experience! That's the knock on Richardson.
The accountability thing has been on going, almost period to period. Some examples are easier to point to. Watch Tinordi for 5 shifts most nights, how did Entwistle (who I thought was getting better) dress so often again?

 

[statswatcher]

Soderblom, KK, Guttman had slightly higher expectations.

a journeyman goalie, the youngest dman in the league, and a 25 year old 6th round pick performed "slightly" below expectation. horror of horrors.

Most of those guys weren't supposed to do anything, but that more underwhelmed than progressed as several regressed says something could go a little better.

yes, that something is not having a team where the vast majority of players are expected to do nothing by your own admission.

The "shit roster" thing doesn't explain tonight's 4 shot first period with 8 players fighting to play in the league next year.

yes it does. many of these players shouldn't be in the league, no matter how hard they fight for it. even those that should be are playing above their ideal role.

The biggest problem is KK wasn't allowed to make many mistakes with the limited NHL talent. They aren't getting the experience! That's the knock on Richardson.

korch has played 1274 minutes this year prior to the game playing right now. if you take giveaways seriously, that was enough time to make at least 63 mistakes. how many more minutes and mistakes before he got his chances? how many 18 year old defensemen have even played 1000+ minutes in a season?

 

[ColbyChaos]

I don't want picks before 2026. I want them to get rid of many of them and to begin slotting the system and big team so they can begin the long road of upgrading all the contract slots. For a first plus all the other picks, there will be players to buy. Might be as simple as swapping ELC players to better align the system before too many logjams develop.

It just seems like many want to trade up because they can. I think scouting is at a disadvantage through most of next year.

Never forget lol

 

[hockeydoug]

Never forget lol

Why would I forget? I don't want them to trade for more picks. They have 7 extra late firsts and 2nds in the next 3 drafts. 3 is plenty given the number of contracts they're giving out the next couple of years.

The organizational strengths were pro scouting, ownership, and the market, not amateur scouting and development so I remain skeptical. Nothing this year has given me reason to think differently than the last 2. They didn't exactly stick the landing projecting the players that matter this year, so there's reason for pause.

For another example, when Guttman was up, it showed how useless Rockford can be without more quality there, especially on the pp and scoring lines. I would be happy to dump an extra late 2nd to slot Rockford better with all the kids about to come up, it will be more useful than another Entwistle or Blackwell drafted at #53 if this club is going to win in a few years.

After this year, it's funny that so many are on board with the blind leading the blind on the ice. So many wasted shifts.

Doesn't matter much with this coaching staff anyway, everything good will take longer.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Never forget lol

As recent as last offseason, doug wanted the Hawks to move picks to acquire lefthanded shot defenseman Vince Dunn ('96 birth). I think he's also not talked about not making picks in order to sign more EuroPro Free Agents.

Add to that thinking it's a "fireable offense" to be bad during tank seasons, instead of... the thing you're trying to do. I don't know how anyone can be so out of touch with how rebuilds work.

 

[hockeydoug]

a journeyman goalie, the youngest dman in the league, and a 25 year old 6th round pick performed "slightly" below expectation. horror of horrors.

More players lag than lead projection, pretty much the only thing that mattered in the big picture this year.

yes, that something is not having a team where the vast majority of players are expected to do nothing by your own admission.

But this is about whether the coach suits the roster and what matters.

yes it does. many of these players shouldn't be in the league, no matter how hard they fight for it. even those that should be are playing above their ideal role.

4 sogs or less for multiple periods a week is not acceptable with an NHL scoring rate close to 3 g/g, shots at 30+ and rookies on the ice. We'll agree to disagree.

korch has played 1274 minutes this year prior to the game playing right now. if you take giveaways seriously, that was enough time to make at least 63 mistakes. how many more minutes and mistakes before he got his chances? how many 18 year old defensemen have even played 1000+ minutes in a season?

KK was 19 and should have had a couple hundred mistakes come back the other way this year. I really thought they were going to let him do that with all the talk of patience. His game will be about the puck on his stick for the rest of this and his next contract.

Jones firing into traffic or KK using his strengths in a year where pts and the number 1 goalie don't matter? Didn't seem like a hard choice. Maybe it was on KD and not Richardson, but it looks like game management was on the bench boss.

KK getting 100 minutes isn't exceptional, they drafted a non-ncaa kid so they didn't have a good choice. Part of that is on management. Moser, Power, Mintyukov, Jiricek, Drysdale had significant roles within 2 years of being drafted recently. Players like Hughes, Sanderson, Miller, etc. would have been up if they were CHL and not NCAA. Schneider would have been up if NYR wasn't trying to contend for example.

 

[hockeydoug]

As recent as last offseason, doug wanted the Hawks to move picks to acquire lefthanded shot defenseman Vince Dunn ('96 birth). I think he's also not talked about not making picks in order to sign more EuroPro Free Agents.

Add to that thinking it's a "fireable offense" to be bad during tank seasons, instead of... the thing you're trying to do. I don't know how anyone can be so out of touch with how rebuilds work.

Vince Dunn for too much money and 4-5 years or Tinordi/Megna...what was I thinking? Are you trying to make me look better? Thank you.

Yes, UDFAs at several positions are off the market in Chicago because they're not going to risk fighting with own-club draft picks and not playing prior to their next contract. Maybe they can land a RHD, but they're not getting most good positions like LHD and with 3 goalies committed for a while, they're probably not getting the good ones at that position either. Hawks have the market and always kept the TOI open for new FA contracts. They weren't always coming here because of Toews and Kane.

All those extra picks aren't helpful landing those guys and there are other needs...like making Bedard good at real NHL hockey.

A record losing streak is grounds for firing in any major sport, c'mon now. It's a sign you're useless.

This is KD stuff though.

This is the "make excuses for Richardson" thread.

 

[ColbyChaos]

As recent as last offseason, doug wanted the Hawks to move picks to acquire lefthanded shot defenseman Vince Dunn ('96 birth). I think he's also not talked about not making picks in order to sign more EuroPro Free Agents.

Add to that thinking it's a "fireable offense" to be bad during tank seasons, instead of... the thing you're trying to do. I don't know how anyone can be so out of touch with how rebuilds work.

Same thread go a few posts down

 

[hockeydoug]

Same thread go a few posts down

I'll take criticism of carrying a 27 year old left shooting d better than the crap we saw wasting Bedard's, KK's, and everybody else's time for a few extra years all day.

You guys go get your Tinordi tattoo and worry about the 28' cap when they're dressing 14 players still in cost controlled years.

 

[Castle8130]

Anyone else think Bedard looked fatigued the last few games of the season? I kind of hoped he wasn't playing for Canada and got much needed rest

 

[ColbyChaos]

Anyone else think Bedard looked fatigued the last few games of the season? I kind of hoped he wasn't playing for Canada and got much needed rest

The fractured jaw probably didn’t help things considering he likely lost a bit of weight from that

 

[Hawkaholic]

I'll take criticism of carrying a 27 year old left shooting d better than the crap we saw wasting Bedard's, KK's, and everybody else's time for a few extra years all day.

You guys go get your Tinordi tattoo and worry about the 28' cap when they're dressing 14 players still in cost controlled years.

It's funny that you think this year was a waste of Bedard and Korchinskis time. Just a dumb comment. No one here cares about TInordi, or the 28 cap, we are worried about getting better draft picks to make sure the rebuild goes well. You know what would be a waste of time? Trading picks for above 25 year olds and picking 8th-10th instead of top 5.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Vince Dunn for too much money and 4-5 years or Tinordi/Megna...what was I thinking? Are you trying to make me look better? Thank you.

Yes, UDFAs at several positions are off the market in Chicago because they're not going to risk fighting with own-club draft picks and not playing prior to their next contract. Maybe they can land a RHD, but they're not getting most good positions like LHD and with 3 goalies committed for a while, they're probably not getting the good ones at that position either. Hawks have the market and always kept the TOI open for new FA contracts. They weren't always coming here because of Toews and Kane.

All those extra picks aren't helpful landing those guys and there are other needs...like making Bedard good at real NHL hockey.

A record losing streak is grounds for firing in any major sport, c'mon now. It's a sign you're useless.

This is KD stuff though.

This is the "make excuses for Richardson" thread.

I don't think you understand how it works. You have to loses games to get better draft picks. Bedard is not even in a Blackhawks jersey if they folloed your plan and whomever they get in '24 will be someone worse if they followed your repeated suggestions.

Do you need to be explained how the draft order and draft lotto position are determined? Toews and Kane were 3rd and 1st overall picks and supplemented by a lot of other Hawk draft picks. If you win too much, you don't get to pick 3rd and 1st. When you trade away picks for guys that will be gone in 4 or 5 years anyways after all you did was finish 10th-12th in conference anyways, you don't get to pick players to help supplement your high draft picks.

Go root for the Flyers buddy, you can go be proud of finishing 11th in the Conference. If you want start demanding coaches avoid "recording losing streak" or they will be fired on the spot you are telling a coach and the GM "do not end this season with a high draft pick, make it work". Everyone in sports knows what teams that do this are, they in "No Man's Land" and only get out of it by getting absurdly lucky with lower draft picks and free agents that outperform all expectations. No sane person wants to be here. Even the GMs know it. The only reason they do is because their owners demand they don't suck too hard so nobody comes to the games. When you're lucky enough that ownership is willing to eat some terrible seasons, the fans that care about the long-term success of the team should be thrilled. It's truly odd for a fan that wants to do every possible move INTENTIONALLY to finish in No Man's Land.

 

[ClydeLee]

Interestingly I looked at the Sharks board. No fire David Quinn threads though. There's a poll of do they want to continue the rebuild as is or change course. 91% are for staying with their plans next year.

(I wonder if getting Celebrini would change some minds there, it seemed getting Bedard changed some people's focus)

 

[hockeydoug]

It's funny that you think this year was a waste of Bedard and Korchinskis time. Just a dumb comment. No one here cares about TInordi, or the 28 cap, we are worried about getting better draft picks to make sure the rebuild goes well. You know what would be a waste of time? Trading picks for above 25 year olds and picking 8th-10th instead of top 5.

There were a ton of unnecessarily wasted shifts.

Dunn and a wing wouldn't have put 10 more pts in the standings, and if it did, the gm needs to get fired. Not alot of support for 3-5 year contacts the last 2 years around here.

I don't think you understand how it works. You have to loses games to get better draft picks.

I don't think you understand that you can have more talent and still tank.

Richardson would not be a good tank commander btw. He would try to neutral zone trap his way to 81pts.

Do you need to be explained how the draft order and draft lotto position are determined? Toews and Kane were 3rd and 1st overall picks and supplemented by a lot of other Hawk draft picks. If you win too much, you don't get to pick 3rd and 1st. When you trade away picks for guys that will be gone in 4 or 5 years anyways after all you did was finish 10th-12th in conference anyways, you don't get to pick players to help supplement your high draft picks.

Tallon went into neither year trying to tank outright. The tanking evolved after the train went off the rails. Toews and Kane never saw what Bedard saw. Tallon was trying really hard to win games in 2008 too. I have no idea why you're bring up the Hawks' previous rebuild. Started pre cap and it was a series of good fortune, deaths, failure at other organizations and lucky stumbles by management.

When you have rosters of high end talent surrounded by inexperienced players, mercenaries, Zaitzevs/TyJo types, and sunset-tour players, without a winning culture, losing begets losing and the rebuild is longer.

Which gets us back to the point of the thread, fire the bench boss and get somebody in there who isn't going to finish year 2 on a 6 game losing streak with a roster full of guys fighting for their NHL future.

 

[hockeydoug]

Interestingly I looked at the Sharks board. No fire David Quinn threads though. There's a poll of do they want to continue the rebuild as is or change course. 91% are for staying with their plans next year.

(I wonder if getting Celebrini would change some minds there, it seemed getting Bedard changed some people's focus)

Yes, the focus changed to protecting and developing the golden goose and his minions.

I don't think any sane person thinks a playoff appearance in 2 years is a good idea for sustainable rebuild.

Unfortunately, too many people take any criticism of management and coaching as a call to try to be in the playoffs.

 

[WarriorofTime]

A team that rolled out a first line of Arnason, Bell, Calder “wasn’t trying to tank”? Uhhh

 

[hockeydoug]

A team that rolled out a first line of Arnason, Bell, Calder “wasn’t trying to tank”? Uhhh

That was supposedly their line of the future and they kept them together. Ruutu was part of it. They kept all their important pieces from the lockout teardown, including the guy coaching in Norfolk the previous several years.

They weren't tanking. Holmqvist was supposed to be a big deal and Khabibulin got huge cap%.

 

[Hawkaholic]

There were a ton of unnecessarily wasted shifts.

Dunn and a wing wouldn't have put 10 more pts in the standings, and if it did, the gm needs to get fired. Not alot of support for 3-5 year contacts the last 2 years around here.

There are no wasted shifts when you are a rookie in the NHL. lol

Then whats the point of adding Dunn and a wing? Of course there is no support for 3-5 year contracts, whats the point? We are 3-5 years away from being relevant anyway.