Proposal: Fire DJ Smith

[Tuna99]

DJ is not the best coach in the league but he’s definitely not the worst. You talk about the lack of structure consistently and blame the coach for not having a system which in my opinion is just lazy and lets players off the hook for terrible reads and decisions. My biggest issue with DJ is accountability for the players and I’ll admit that there could very well be accountability in private. The dump and chase style was implemented because our players were turning it over at the blue line at an unsustainable rate causing a very high amount of rush chances against. Like you I’d like to see some more zone entries but our possession numbers are climbing as we are recovering the dumps at a higher rate lately.

Yes you can blame the players but Timmy and Brady have been playing lazy D-zone since they got here and that’s on the coach to make them play hockey the way he wants and the team needs them to then they want to for their stats. So blame the players all you want but the coach so there to hold them accountable, not for bad reads which happens but for not committing to full Defensive hockey which happens every night with this teams best players and they get away with it

 

[GCK]

Yes you can blame the players but Timmy and Brady have been playing lazy D-zone since they got here and that’s on the coach to make them play hockey the way he wants and the team needs them to then they want to for their stats. So blame the players all you want but the coach so there to hold them accountable, not for bad reads which happens but for not committing to full Defensive hockey which happens every night with this teams best players and they get away with it

Coaching gets them better and more committed to defensive hockey. It’s not on on/off switch, it’s a long slow process to get that ingrained. I’m sure most objective observers have seen improvement from most of our young guys over the last 100 games.

 

[Tuna99]

Coaching gets them better and more committed to defensive hockey. It’s not on on/off switch, it’s a long slow process to get that ingrained. I’m sure most objective observers have seen improvement from most of our young guys over the last 100 games.

Yes but that commitment wasn’t there early this year and that’s the thing with this team, wildly inconsistent from structure to effort to chemistry.

Seems to have settled down but let’s see how this 3 game road trip goes. How they play on the road in these 3 big games will show me a lot about the state of their game right now

 

[Micklebot]

I think we just look lost in our zone most nights. Terrible at supporting each other down low (forwards fly the zone way too quickly) and were crap on switches knowing who is covering who. From the blueline back its a mess IMO

Our forecheck, neutral zone pressure & tracking have been pretty good - great when we're on our game id say. We also have a cycle game this year which we never had the previous 3, although it's still just decent. The main reason for that is we have more talent up front

In the end, it's not "the coach doesn't have structure" - it's not like the good coaches have some magical game plan hidden away in a book somewhere. Good coaches get players to execute, and you do that through practice drills, video, and communication.

A great boxing coach doesn't know how to throw a jab better than an average coach, he knows how to drill it so its automatic and can be performed under pressure.

the story of the last 3 seasons have been horrible starts, then .500 hockey, then ending it with a stretch of winning hockey. DJ is gone next season but just let me watch a battle for a playoff spot please.

Get to .500 or above by Christmas, get healthy, get on a roll

It's interesting, because I'm not so sure we've started particularly slow relative to reasonable expectations. I'd argue the last two seasons are the only ones with any degree of expectations, last year I'd suggest we were probably gunning for 500 hockey while this year the target is 96pts.

Last year, we paced at 70 pts in October, despite injuries starting to pile up early with White and Pinto going down, the November hit along with a Covid outbreak that we had to play games through and we paced 20 pts for that month.

This year we paced at 82 pts for October, injuries hits us towards the end of the month losing Norris and Zub and we followed that up with pacing at 52 pts for the month of Nov.

So, while people argue DJ is notorious for slow starts, I don't really see it as the issue, If anything I'd argue he struggles at adapting to injuries, though the make-up of the team is partially to blame for that.

 

[GCK]

Yes but that commitment wasn’t there early this year and that’s the thing with this team, wildly inconsistent from structure to effort to chemistry.

Seems to have settled down but let’s see how this 3 game road trip goes. How they play on the road in these 3 big games will show me a lot about the state of their game right now

Questioning effort is strange, all players put in the effort. Chemistry was always going to take a while and a few posters pointed out that would be an issue for at least 20 games and likely more with all the turnover. The roster was thin to start the year and was not going to be able to withstand too many injuries but that’s on Dorion for rushing things this summer rather than being patient and building depth while the better players gained experience.

 

[Tuna99]

Questioning effort is strange, all players put in the effort. Chemistry was always going to take a while and a few posters pointed out that would be an issue for at least 20 games and likely more with all the turnover. The roster was thin to start the year and was not going to be able to withstand too many injuries but that’s on Dorion for rushing things this summer rather than being patient and building depth while the better players gained experience.

I watched Keith Tkachuk float in the D zone for years and put all his effort into getting the puck in scoring position - you won’t hear about Walt not committing to the game but his teams were poor playoff teams because he didn’t put the effort forward to play D and his son is the same way. Lots of effort, but not focused in the right areas and at the right times. If you’re blowing the zone on what you think will be an outlet pass that’s effort, but if you should of been battling for that puck instead of looking for a scoring chance its effort in the wrong area and that’s coaching

 

[GCK]

I watched Keith Tkachuk float in the D zone for years and put all his effort into getting the puck in scoring position - you won’t hear about Walt not committing to the game but his teams were poor playoff teams because he didn’t put the effort forward to play D and his son is the same way. Lots of effort, but not focused in the right areas and at the right times. If you’re blowing the zone on what you think will be an outlet pass that’s effort, but if you should of been battling for that puck instead of looking for a scoring chance its effort in the wrong area and that’s coaching

Have you not seen vast improvement from Brady on the defensive side. He’s obviously got a ways to go but the improvement is there. It took Scotty Bowman a couple years to get a 10 year vet in Steve Yzerman to understand the importance of defensive hockey so I’ll cut DJ some slack as he alters the mindset of a bunch of players in their early 20s.

 

[swiftwin]

6 fewer game-savers and we're at .903%.

It's been 27 games.

If we end the season with a combined .910%, that's excellent. Expecting .915+, considering the style we play and the makeup of our D, was insanity.

I don't know if that was the actual internal expectation of if DJ/Dorion just threw out a number in an interview. Hopefully the latter.

FYI, Talbot is now sitting at .917

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[JD1]

I'd love to see a detailed explanation of why our lack of structure has resulted in us being last in 5v5 goals over the last month, from what I've seen we've been getting lots of scoring chances, and that's backed up by the metrics. Typically structure can get you chances but skill allows you to finish on them.

Good luck getting that explanation. I've tried. I agree that structure is leading to the metrics. And there's a combo of bad luck, skill, gripping the stick etc that's leading to the low 5 on 5 numbers.

 

[Micklebot]

Good luck getting that explanation. I've tried. I agree that structure is leading to the metrics. And there's a combo of bad luck, skill, gripping the stick etc that's leading to the low 5 on 5 numbers.

Yeah, I think there's also, particularly earlier on, some isolated periods where we broke down catestrophicly at key times, those short but really bad spurts don't show up as much in the metric, but I do think they've cost us a couple times. At least, that's my perception, which may not match what actually happened...

Our structure,in my view, has been good until it isn't. I've called us fragile at times this year, but recently I've found we're getting past that, and I think it's shown up in the W/L columns. Hope we keep it up and start to get healthy, Norris cleared for contact, Stü not as bad as initially thought, and Zub approaching a return, we might be mostly healthy by the new year. Would be good to see what DJ can do with a healthy group

 

[LevelingSolo]

I find it surprising that there is still so much support for a coach that before this season had gone 81-104-24 and is now known for his disastrous starts through 20 games

DJ entered his fourth FULL season this year, the only other coaches who have been around that long have won cups and made the playoffs

Maclean, Cameron and Boucher accomplished much more here but were thrown under the bus constantly by fans and media, I just don't see the same with this coach.

 

[JD1]

I find it surprising that there is still so much support for a coach that before this season had gone 81-104-24 and is now known for his disastrous starts through 20 games

DJ entered his fourth FULL season this year, the only other coaches who have been around that long have won cups and made the playoffs

Maclean, Cameron and Boucher accomplished much more here but were thrown under the bus constantly by fans and media, I just don't see the same with this coach.

I think the difference is that all 3 of those gentlemen were hired with managerial and fan expectations of making the playoffs

In Smith's 4 years, has that ever been the expectation? From either the GM or fans?

 

[Micklebot]

I find it surprising that there is still so much support for a coach that before this season had gone 81-104-24 and is now known for his disastrous starts through 20 games

DJ entered his fourth FULL season this year, the only other coaches who have been around that long have won cups and made the playoffs

Maclean, Cameron and Boucher accomplished much more here but were thrown under the bus constantly by fans and media, I just don't see the same with this coach.

I think it's disengenuous to judge him based on the teams record when he was brought in to lead a team that started a full tear down and rebuild. MacLean, Boucher and Cameron were all brought in to teams expected to make the playoffs, this is the first year where Smith was really expected to even challenge for playoffs.

I don't think DJ has met the challenge so far this this year, but things are improving as the year goes on, and I personally think the team played better than their record would suggest.

He won't be fired until the sale of the team is completed, so he's got time to right the ship, it will be interesting to see how things go as the team gets more healthy. I'm not sure I'd qualify that as support, I'd bring in Trotz in an instant if it was an option, but if I'm going to evaluate his performance I think it's important to keep the context of his situation in mind.

 

[Tuna99]

I think it's disengenuous to judge him based on the teams record when he was brought in to lead a team that started a full tear down and rebuild. MacLean, Boucher and Cameron were all brought in to teams expected to make the playoffs, this is the first year where Smith was really expected to even challenge for playoffs.

I don't think DJ has met the challenge so far this this year, but things are improving as the year goes on, and I personally think the team played better than their record would suggest.

He won't be fired until the sale of the team is completed, so he's got time to right the ship, it will be interesting to see how things go as the team gets more healthy. I'm not sure I'd qualify that as support, I'd bring in Trotz in an instant if it was an option, but if I'm going to evaluate his performance I think it's important to keep the context of his situation in mind.

This 3 game road trip will determine a lot of the team readiness to win for this season and how the coach can impact his team play. Anything less then 2–1 record and being at .500% is a failure. Ottawa should be in every game and should dictate play in all 3 games - Let’s see where the team is at.

 

[GCK]

This 3 game road trip will determine a lot of the team readiness to win for this season and how the coach can impact his team play. Anything less then 2–1 record and being at .500% is a failure. Ottawa should be in every game and should dictate play in all 3 games - Let’s see where the team is at.

Lol, I’m not sure dictating play against Winnipeg is something that “should” happen. I think 3 out of 6 points would be successful.

 

[Tuna99]

Lol, I’m not sure dictating play against Winnipeg is something that “should” happen. I think 3 out of 6 points would be successful.

Then they return home with a losing road record - not sure when the time is to start improving but .500 on a road trip when you’re trying to make up ground on teams above .500 is about as unambitious as a fan can get

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Next three games are big, and I’ll be interested to see how the Sens look. My anti DJ views have always been about the eye test: how many sloppy or lazy plays I see the team make.

The last handful of games have been better… but I can’t tell whether it’s because the Sens have improved, or because they’ve played mediocre opponents.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I'd love to see a detailed explanation of why our lack of structure has resulted in us being last in 5v5 goals over the last month, from what I've seen we've been getting lots of scoring chances, and that's backed up by the metrics. Typically structure can get you chances but skill allows you to finish on them.

DJ is not the best coach in the league but he’s definitely not the worst. You talk about the lack of structure consistently and blame the coach for not having a system which in my opinion is just lazy and lets players off the hook for terrible reads and decisions. My biggest issue with DJ is accountability for the players and I’ll admit that there could very well be accountability in private. The dump and chase style was implemented because our players were turning it over at the blue line at an unsustainable rate causing a very high amount of rush chances against. Like you I’d like to see some more zone entries but our possession numbers are climbing as we are recovering the dumps at a higher rate lately.

Agreed with these two posts, and I think people who say "ah, we're running around in our zone!" would be hard-pressed to find many examples of that where there isn't at least one HORRIBLY executed read/misplay that leads up to the chaos. That, to me, indicates a failure to adhere to structure - not a lack of structure.

Not saying our structure is excellent, but by no means are we "overcoming terrible structure due to our incredible talent".

Next three games are big, and I’ll be interested to see how the Sens look. My anti DJ views have always been about the eye test: how many sloppy or lazy plays I see the team make.

The last handful of games have been better… but I can’t tell whether it’s because the Sens have improved, or because they’ve played mediocre opponents.

See, to me, that seems like one of the spheres that a coach has the absolute least amount of influence on.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Agreed with these two posts, and I think people who say "ah, we're running around in our zone!" would be hard-pressed to find many examples of that where there isn't at least one HORRIBLY executed read/misplay that leads up to the chaos. That, to me, indicates a failure to adhere to structure - not a lack of structure.

Not saying our structure is excellent, but by no means are we "overcoming terrible structure due to our incredible talent".


See, to me, that seems like one of the spheres that a coach has the absolute least amount of influence on.

It's a classic chat room fan take: blame the coach when they lose, celebrate the players when they win. I wonder if they think fans in Toronto are talking about Keefe's performance or Marner/Matthews/Nylander/Tavares as the reason for their success this year? I think it's pretty easy to guess which one.

This thread for the last 20ish pages is all about posters with fully formed opinions about the coaching being the wall that other posters are arguing off of. Present all the facts, stats, advanced metrics and youtube clips that you want, they'll never be persuaded to change their mind. To them, DJ will always be the reason for this team's failures.

 

[Tuna99]

It's a classic chat room fan take: blame the coach when they lose, celebrate the players when they win. I wonder if they think fans in Toronto are talking about Keefe's performance or Marner/Matthews/Nylander/Tavares as the reason for their success this year? I think it's pretty easy to guess which one.

This thread for the last 20ish pages is all about posters with fully formed opinions about the coaching being the wall that other posters are arguing off of. Present all the facts, stats, advanced metrics and youtube clips that you want, they'll never be persuaded to change their mind. To them, DJ will always be the reason for this team's failures.

It's a classic chat room fan take: blame the coach when they lose, celebrate the players when they win. I wonder if they think fans in Toronto are talking about Keefe's performance or Marner/Matthews/Nylander/Tavares as the reason for their success this year? I think it's pretty easy to guess which one.

This thread for the last 20ish pages is all about posters with fully formed opinions about the coaching being the wall that other posters are arguing off of. Present all the facts, stats, advanced metrics and youtube clips that you want, they'll never be persuaded to change their mind. To them, DJ will always be the reason for this team's failures.

This is thread titled “fire DJ Smith”

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

…
See, to me, that seems like one of the spheres that a coach has the absolute least amount of influence on.

Why?

Or maybe a different question: would you agree that some coaches consistently have teams that play without those lazy / sloppy characteristics?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Why?

Or maybe a different question: would you agree that some coaches consistently have teams that play without those lazy / sloppy characteristics?

No, I wouldn't agree with that at all.

I would, however, agree that some coaches consistently have players that, on majority, play without those lazy/sloppy characteristics.

Claude Giroux doesn't make those plays. Hell, Dylan Gambrell doesn't make those plays! But pretty much all young players make those plays sometimes, and when you have 4 young guys on the ice, a sloppy play is far more likely to set off a chain reaction than when Tampa is rolling Hedman + Point lines.

 

[Bileur]

I think it's disengenuous to judge him based on the teams record when he was brought in to lead a team that started a full tear down and rebuild. MacLean, Boucher and Cameron were all brought in to teams expected to make the playoffs, this is the first year where Smith was really expected to even challenge for playoffs.

I don't think DJ has met the challenge so far this this year, but things are improving as the year goes on, and I personally think the team played better than their record would suggest.

He won't be fired until the sale of the team is completed, so he's got time to right the ship, it will be interesting to see how things go as the team gets more healthy. I'm not sure I'd qualify that as support, I'd bring in Trotz in an instant if it was an option, but if I'm going to evaluate his performance I think it's important to keep the context of his situation in mind.

I think “disingenuous” is a term thrown around far to freely around here. It suggests an intention to mislead which isn’t necessary for a poster to make a mistaken point or to fail to consider other variables.

I don’t think it’s true to say MacLean was brought in to a team expected to make the playoffs, the team had just executed a significant retool gutting its depth trading Fisher, Kelly, Ruutu, and Kovalev. They made the playoffs the following year mostly on the back of two surprising breakouts in Anderson finally putting it together and finding consistency and Karlsson going supernova and winning a Norris. That said you’re definitely right about the other two.

I also think if you look at the league historically, rebuilds haven’t been a good enough explanation to overcome poor coaching records. Teams want improvement faster, might be motivated by fan sentiment but it is what it is. Look at recent rebuilds around the league. Which coach gets more than 4 seasons? It’s not surprising in year 4 to see expectations much higher.

Of course you need to evaluate case by case but it’s rare, even in a rebuild, for a coach with a poor overall record to get over 4 seasons.

 

[Micklebot]

I think “disingenuous” is a term thrown around far to freely around here. It suggests an intention to mislead which isn’t necessary for a poster to make a mistaken point or to fail to consider other variables.

I don’t think it’s true to say MacLean was brought in to a team expected to make the playoffs, the team had just executed a significant retool gutting its depth trading Fisher, Kelly, Ruutu, and Kovalev. They made the playoffs the following year mostly on the back of two surprising breakouts in Anderson finally putting it together and finding consistency and Karlsson going supernova and winning a Norris. That said you’re definitely right about the other two.

I also think if you look at the league historically, rebuilds haven’t been a good enough explanation to overcome poor coaching records. Teams want improvement faster, might be motivated by fan sentiment but it is what it is. Look at recent rebuilds around the league. Which coach gets more than 4 seasons? It’s not surprising in year 4 to see expectations much higher.

Of course you need to evaluate case by case but it’s rare, even in a rebuild, for a coach with a poor overall record to get over 4 seasons.

The team still had Alfredsson, Spezza, Gonchar, Foligno, Michalek, Phillips, and we added Turris by trading off futures, like you said, it was a retool, not a rebuild, playoffs were absolutely the expectation for MacLean. Worst case the expectation was similar to this year for DJ. Macleans situation was in no way similar to DJ when they were hired, it's absurd to suggest otherwise.

 

[coladin]

Playing the same way as they did in November