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Finland's status and reputation in the hockey world (merged)

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Onehitwonder said:
I have followed lot of international hockey conversations here and in other places, and I always see this same story. Lot of north americans see finland as a mid class team. Similar to swiss or so. Then when I see europeans talking about finns (even swedes) they always consider finland as one of the favourites, an opponent that is to be feared. Why is this?
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I see many North Americans saying that they've always respected Finland and although that is true, it only means that they respect the Finns as hard working players with lots of heart and that you play as a team. The respect you're talking about though is recognition as among the elite. Many here say that they consider Finland as a top 5 hockey nation, but if we read the comments since before the Olympics, only the top 4 are considered true contenders for the Gold. When we found out Canada's division, everyone said that Canada had the easiest path to the quarters and everyone also expected Canada to win over Finland with a relatively significant margin. Let's be honest, most North Americans will always consider Finland as an underdog.

The main reason is that Finland has too few big names. Let's not forget that most North Americans don't watch the World Championships so they don't know that time and again Finland has bitten the top 4. Whilst it always perform very well at the Olympics, that happens only every 4 years and lots of things can happen in between the Olympics. So North Americans will mainly evaluate based on paper. Until Finland starts to produce bigger names in the NHL, North Americans will always underrate Finland.
 
Heningway said:
22 shots on goal isn't very offensive, 38 is.
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Yeah, but you should watch the game and see how many truly dangerous scoring chances teams had. It would surprise you.

If russians are happy to shoot easy shots against Rask - I'm happy with that. "Oh, we had 38 shots on goal", yeah, thats nice.

This maybe has something to do with underrating KHL. Finnish KHL players have been good, but many north americans dont maybe know them.
 
turkulad said:
Whenever you look at the Finnish team on paper, you can't help laughing at the fact they never outshine of of their big opponents. When you use that ice, you realize it's a team sport and THAT'S why Finland's team is a top4. When listing ice hockey players as individuals based on talent, we might not even be top5 (CAN,US,SWE,RUS beat us easily.. CZE basically beats us too) .. but you need a team to win, individuals can only take you that far..

I always wonder why Canada never ices a "legit 4th line." We have guys like Pihlström and Komarov on the team, because a team needs to set roles to their players, and if I need a fourth line with energy, I'd easily take guys like them over guys like.. Ville Leino and Antti Miettinen. If you'd have three Canadian players on their roster that always win those "Best 3rd liner in the league"-threads, I'd argue they would dominate other teams more often than they do.
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We have had 4th lines before and that hasn't panned out well for us so now we rather have all 4 1st lines and giving those stars roles.
 
Sabres fan here. If any Finn is wondering about respect, come watch a Sabres game, and see Ville Leino play = "there's your problem". :laugh: He's not a NHL player, he's a NHL jester.

However, I was quite thankful to have Toni Lydman, and Teppo Numminen(who is a coach here now) on my team for all of the years we were "good". :laugh: Going forward, I'm ecstatic to have Rasmus Ristolainen. Risto and Zadorov should be a devastating top pairing for us, especially when they are both all-stars at the WJC, and then Risto wins the damn thing.

This is simple: you are what your results say you are, therefore, the top teams in the world are currently:
1. Sweden
2. USA
3. Canada
4. Finland

That order will change, depending on how things go tomorrow. :) IF Finland wants to be considered better? Beat Canada next time.

Thus, IMO, Latvia is a better team than Switzerland, and is very close to Russia. If you don't like that, tell Latvia to stop winning/giving the top teams like Canada, and Sweden in the prelims, hell.
 
I would say, for many of the teams, I have been most impressed by the KHL players. Maybe it's because we know what to expect from the NHLers or not, but the KHL players have been right there with the NHL players, and in many cases have been better than a number of NHL players.

I personally have gained new respect for the KHL players in general from these Olympics.
 
obskyr said:
The drop between the "Top 3" and "below the Top 3" is too profound to claim the existence of the "Top 4".
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Average ranking in the Olympics since 1998 for the top 8 team (with a 2,5 ranking for the 2014 semi-finalists for now) :

1- Canada 3,1
2- Finland 3,3
3- Sweden 3,7
4- Russia 4,0
5- USA 4,1
6- Czech Republic 4,8
7- Switzerland (missed 1998 though) 8,5
8- Slovakia 8,6

If Finland finishes one place above Canada they tie them for first.
If Sweden wins gold against USA and Finland wins bronze, Canada, Finland and Sweden will be tied for first.
USA can also claim a top 3 spot depending on the result of the medal games.

Who is your top 3 exactly ?

Because I see more a big 5 with a 6th that could come back quickly. ;)
 
Yeah, I don't have a problem with Finland's preferred style some others do but I'm a fan of their lunch pail, workmen-like approach to the game and I've already stated I thought they would take home bronze at the beginning of the Olympics- I respect the hell out of Finland.
 
Fergus said:
If Russia and Finland would play 100 games Finland would win about 35 of them. People don't understand the huge variance of one game and even in best of 7-series the better team doesn't always win. It's basic math.

So no, there's no top-4.
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Finland has played against Russia 7 times in the Olympics....and has 5 wins.
 
DeuceMN said:
I would say, for many of the teams, I have been most impressed by the KHL players. Maybe it's because we know what to expect from the NHLers or not, but the KHL players have been right there with the NHL players, and in many cases have been better than a number of NHL players.

I personally have gained new respect for the KHL players in general from these Olympics.
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You should watch a KHL game. Looks like my Sunday night beer league.
 
I disagree that Finland lacks individual skills. Working hard and playing as a team are also an individual abilities, just like shooting or skating. People talk about team effort like its some magical thing. Sure Finland has great coaching staff, but I dont think that is where its coming from. I think it comes from youth system. Since the first years in junior teams, kids are trained to play as a unit first. That is why our national team is so good at it aswell. I dont think for a second finland has any less skill than other top countries. They have certain skills that are not visible on many peoples eyes. They may not be the type of players who lead nhl stats on points, but they are good in other areas of the game.
 
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I like Finnish hockey, I like their players, I like their work ethic, I like their style.

I like that they get chippy in big games. I think it was Selanne that hit Pronger from behind and made his nose bleed in that close contest in the 2002 Olympics. Pronger's a big man, but Selanne was a kamikaze in that game.

But, as a Canadian, it's gold or bust. So, Finland has to start winning tournaments to be one of the favourites.

Until then, they're probably the most consistent pain in the ass to play against.
 
StanAjax said:
Average ranking in the Olympics since 1998 for the top 8 team (with a 2,5 ranking for the 2014 semi-finalists for now) :

1- Canada 3,1
2- Finland 3,3
3- Sweden 3,7
4- Russia 4,0
5- USA 4,1
6- Czech Republic 4,8
7- Switzerland (missed 1998 though) 8,5
8- Slovakia 8,6

If Finland finishes one place above Canada they tie them for first.
If Sweden wins gold against USA and Finland wins bronze, Canada, Finland and Sweden will be tied for first.
USA can also claim a top 3 spot depending on the result of the medal games.

Who is your top 3 exactly ?

Because I see more a big 5 with a 6th that could come back quickly. ;)
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This.
 
I think that Finns have one extra gear in their games that can only be triggered when they put on their national jerseys; every single tournament they seem to play above to their believed talent/skill level even on an individual basis. When you add great teamwork and system to go with that, Finland always becomes a team that is hard to beat.

I do think that most people who follow do give Finland the amount of respect they deserve, it might be the more casual ones who may not give the Finns as much respect as they maybe should get. And that can be because of the style they play, very disciplined defensive hockey, which some people may not find that exciting to watch (however, at least I enjoy watching great defensive teams, especially those who play great defense as a unit).

And at the end of the day, it shouldn't matter if they get respect or not, what matters is how they perform on the ice, and so far it has been pretty good.
 
RorschachWJK said:
Finland has played against Russia 7 times in the Olympics....and has 5 wins.
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Reading comprehension? I just wrote better team doesn't always win best of 7. It's a mathematical FACT. I suggest you and many others to study little about probabilities and variance.
 
Finland really needed a new wave of players. It's looking like Maatta, Barkov, Granlund, Ristolainen, etc represent a pretty decent group going forward. I'm not particularly impressed with their hockey players in the ~23-28 age range, but they have some great veterans, some solid young guys, and their goaltending is obviously spectacular.
 
Fergus said:
Please amuse me and tell your estimation how many games Finland would win out of 100 vs. Russia.
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If they played a million times, I'd say Finland would win 380,445 games.

Hey, I'd watch that!
 
Fergus said:
Please amuse me and tell your estimation how many games Finland would win out of 100 vs. Russia.
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100 games with exact same setup? first one would be the tight one, after that Finns would lose their strategic advantage and Russia would win the last 99.

Maybe that's the reason they usually win THAT match against Russia, when it's about one game only, they are that one step ahead. Same thing goes against Chech Republic, I still remember for when some freakin reason WC-finals were played at two parts.. and exactly that happened, Finns lost their edge after the first game.
 
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Fergus said:
Please amuse me and tell your estimation how many games Finland would win out of 100 vs. Russia.
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Well since we already have a decent sample size, you can count some probabilities from that if you want.

If there are no ties, then I'd give Finland a 60-40 advantage.

Your fantasies do not matter, they have played a lot of games against eachother in the recent history. Results are results.
 
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