Finland Not Eliminated

[Panopticon]

What a joke of a tiebreaking procedure. Slovakia fully deserves to be through.

You shouldn't lose to Sweden then.

 

[Dominus]

At the last moment, it was determined that Slovakia instead of Finland missed the playoff round. So, in other words, Slovakia's 2-0 win over Finland earlier in the tournament means SFA because Slovakia had the audacity to beat one of the "better" teams, the team that ended up edging them out by a questionable "tiebreaking' formula.

It wasn't determined "at the last moment". Everybody knew the rules before yesterday's games. At least the teams knew, no doubt about it. I can understand not everybody in these boards knew, since there are lot of people who spread their opinions or hunches as undeniable facts. I can't see why Slovakia should deserve to be in the quarter finals, even though I wasn't very happy with Team Finland's performance against Canada. Slovaks only had to score one goal against Swedes and they couldn't do that. End of story. They're out.

I didn't think Swedes could win them with over two goals though. Way to go Sweden!

 

[Jazz]

...I'm guessing that Slovakia will face Belarus, and Germany will play the Swiss in the relegation round, with the winners playing for 7th place overall, and the losers heading back to Division II for the 2006 WJC's. Can anyone confirm this? Do both the ninth and 10th place teams go to Division II, or just the 10-place team?

I appreciate any clarification.

Doomsday was correct in his explanation. The Relegation standings look like this:

Relegation Round Standings
R Team GP W T L GF:GA GDF PTS
1.. SUI 1 1 0 0 05:00 (+05) 2
2.. SVK 1 1 0 0 05:00 (+05) 2
3.. GER 1 0 0 1 00:05 (-05) 0
4.. BLR 1 0 0 1 00:05 (-05) 0

With the following games:
Switzerland vs Germany (Saturday)
Slovakia vs Belarus (Sunday)
Belarus vs Germany (Monday)
Switerland vs Slovakia (Monday)

Once this is done, the teams ranked 3rd and 4th (or 9th and 10th overall respectively) will drop to Div I for next year - to be replaced by Norway and Latvia (who won their Div I groups last week). This is why I've been saying since yesterday that Belarus' upset vs the USA will probably not stop them from being relegated.

 

[Pepper]

Are you enacting the "two wrongs make a right" clause? I'm not a fan of that one.

Of course not, the system is not fair but it doesn't treat any country differently meaning the system is the same for all.

I'd like to see more fair system as well.

 

[Dominus]

I'd like to see more fair system as well.

The system is as fair (or unfair) as any other system would be. Whatever the system, there's always a chance that a team that maybe looks better on the ice can't make the playoffs. You can't give some team extra points for looking sexy. This is hockey, not figure-skating.

 

[carl from pori]

a funny thing is:
The slovakian team manager was also sure that 3-0 was enough for the slovaks to reach the play-offs and thats why they played safe in the third...what a surprise
and not proffesional acting to not have the knowledge before the game... ha ha....

 

[Predatore]

a funny thing is:
The slovakian team manager was also sure that 3-0 was enough for the slovaks to reach the play-offs and thats why they played safe in the third...what a surprise
and not proffesional acting to not have the knowledge before the game... ha ha....

haha, that's insane if it is true. Dang, the players must be pissed at him...

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

No, the coach KNEW we could lose 2-0 and go on. He KNEW IF we lose 3-0 we are out. So the thing above is not true.

 

[Jussi]

No, the coach KNEW we could lose 2-0 and go on. He KNEW IF we lose 3-0 we are out. So the thing above is not true.

But had you pursued to score a goal and succeeded, you would have been through?

As for the system, It's been in place for a long time and it's used in other sports as well. IIRC, atleast FIFA/UEFA use the system in World Cups/Euro Champs as well.

 

[flip588]

Here is how I think it should be done...

I have no problem with goal differential between the tied teams. However, if they can only separate one team from the group with the goal differential, the tie between the two remaining teams should be separated with the procedure to separate two teams.

In other words, once it was determined that Sweden was in second place, and Finland and Slovakia were still tied for the goal differential, the Finns and Slovaks should have been separated by their head-to-head matchup, which Slovakia won 2-0.

By the IIHF's book, Finland is in. By my book, Slovakia should be in.

My thoughts exactly. This is a poor tie breaking procedure.

You count games against the Swedes as head to head, but when you identify that they will advance, you're left with Slovakia and Finland tied. To break that tie why do you not go to goals scored within that head to head matchup? Rather, you choose to include Sweden who is really no longer part of the tie.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

But had you pursued to score a goal and succeeded, you would have been through?

As for the system, It's been in place for a long time and it's used in other sports as well. IIRC, atleast FIFA/UEFA use the system in World Cups/Euro Champs as well.

The papers say that if we had scored one more goal and lost 1-3, we would have been through.

 

[An Ape called Yoko]

The papers say that if we had scored one more goal and lost 1-3, we would have been through.

But then you would only have had 3 goals and Finland still had five???

Pls. Explain to me someone...

 

[Seachd]

Why start the relegation round with zero points, forcing two extra games that were already played during the round robin?

Not only that, but it makes the round robin games that much more important.

 

[Seachd]

But then you would only have had 3 goals and Finland still had five???

Pls. Explain to me someone...

Because their goal differential would have been 0, and Finland's was -1. So Slovakia would have gone on.

 

[steepler]

You count games against the Swedes as head to head, but when you identify that they will advance, you're left with Slovakia and Finland tied. To break that tie why do you not go to goals scored within that head to head matchup? Rather, you choose to include Sweden who is really no longer part of the tie.

I agree that this is not maybe the best tiebreaking formula. I'd use overall goal differential, but in this situation you can't seperate sweden on goal differential and then suddenly use head to head between finland and slovakia. Finland beat sewen so why would sweden edge finland out by goal differential but then finland not be able to do the same to slovakia. It'd be different situation if sweden had beaten both slovakia and finland then it'd be reasonable to seperate sweden from the two, but in this situation yuo have to rank all the teams on goal differential.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

But then you would only have had 3 goals and Finland still had five???

Pls. Explain to me someone...

I read that in the news (on the internet). Im also.

 

[Slats432]

Here was the problem... the tie breaking rules say that after head to head matchups and goal differential, the next criteria is "goals scored within the group". Since they used the phrase "between the tied teams" to describe the first two tie-breakers, it was unclear whether they meant games involving all the teams in group B, or just the ones between the tied teams.

It was finally determined what it meant: games betweeen the tied teams, hence Finland advances having scored 5 goals to Slovakia's two.

I'm going to bed...I have a headache.

G. You guys are doing an awesome job with the coverage.

P.S. Tell P. that we get it about the two line pass. Enough already.

 

[turnbuckle*]

Why start the relegation round with zero points, forcing two extra games that were already played during the round robin?

The round robin games played between these teams are no longer round robin games, they are now relegation games.

If you want to keep complaining about the relegation system, why don't you tell us how it should be done? Tell us how Belarus' win over the USA should count for something against Switzerland, Germany and Slovakia.

If I want to keep complaining? This is the first time I've ever complained about it, give me a break.

I think I've already explained my format. The bottom four teams play off, with the winners then battling for 7th place, and the losers playing for ninth place. Belarus would play Slovakia, while the Swiss battle the Germans.

IMO only the 10th place team should then be relegated to the second division.

No complex tie-breaking formulas, just winners and losers. Why the hell should a team that wasn't good enough for the medal round get an advantage over other teams in the relegation round, particularly if they haven't garnered any more points?

Why penalize a team for beating the Americans, but losing to the Germans? It's discriminating. As for them having to play extra games - why's that? Whether you win or lose the first game in the relegation round, you have one more game remaining.

The top six teams are starting the playoffs with a clean slate - why the hell can't they do the same thing with the teams in the relegation round? IMO they're complicating things needlessly.

 

[flip588]

Do relegation games still count as tournament games? What I'm after is whether or not players scoring in these games will have points credited to their overall tournament statistics.

 

[e-e]

the thing is the rules haven't been changed during tournament. if some "manager" or whoever else knows or doesn't know them thats his problem. i'm sad the slovaks didn't make it. they blew it and i'm not that surprised. they should've defeted the sweden and no one would be complaining now

congratulation to finns

get over it guys...it's not the end of the world

 

[RorschachWJK]

I feel for the Slovakian team, it's not nice to miss the playoffs in this manner. This is almost like tossing a coin. Slovakia-Czech would have been an interesting matchup, they are like Finland and Sweden...almost always a good, tight game.

I personally did not consider team Finland worthy of advancing, but then again, Sweden and Slovakia haven't been exactly convincing either.

 

[Boomhower]

The papers say that if we had scored one more goal and lost 1-3, we would have been through.
.........
I read that in the news (on the internet). Im also.

That's right, because it would have never went to goals for, it would have been initially decided by the +/- ratio involving the three teams. If Slovakia had scored one goal against Sweden to make the score 1-3:

Sweden 7-6, +1
Slovakia 3-3, even
Finland 5-6, -1

My question; Did Slovakia even bother to pull their goalie?

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

We didnt pull our goalie cause (this is what the artcile says): "The Swedes didnt let us pull our goalie".

 

[Diaboli]

Oh man...

 

[BCCHL inactive]

IMO only the 10th place team should then be relegated to the second division.

Then you have to re-structure the entire U20 format, which would effect not just the 10 nations in the top tournament, but all 40 from Pool A to Division III. If they do this for the U20 division, then they have to do it for the Mens, U18, and Womens divisions as well. Considering the current format is only a couple years old, it makes no sense to re-structure a system that seems to be working just fine.

Why the hell should a team that wasn't good enough for the medal round get an advantage over other teams in the relegation round[/i]

That was my point. Why should a team like Belarus get an advantage over other teams in the Relegation Round just because they beat a team going to the medal round?

The top six teams are starting the playoffs with a clean slate - why the hell can't they do the same thing with the teams in the relegation round? IMO they're complicating things needlessly.

By having the already-played games (BLR vs. SUI and SVK vs. GER) replayed in the relegation round would be complicating things needlessly. These games played in the round robin now count as relegation round games. It seems pretty simple to me.

The only advantage teams going into the relegation round are getting, is against the team they have already played.