Finland Not Eliminated

[BAuldie]

nm.. good ole TSN and the confusion over the tie breaking procedures.

Click to read more...

 

[turnbuckle*]

Canada will play either the Czechs or Slovaks in the semi-finals, while the Russkies will play either the Americans or Swedes.

I'm guessing that Finland will face Belarus, and Germany will play the Swiss in the relegation round, with the winners playing for 7th place overall, and the losers heading back to Division II for the 2006 WJC's. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[MOGiLNY]

are you sure Finland is the one that's eliminated?

 

[scout46]

TSN just announced that Finland was in.

 

[Gord Miller]

Finland is third, Slovakia is out... the tiebreaking procedure caused mass confusion at the arena, and the IIHF initially announced that Slovakia had advanced, but the Finns are third.

 

[deandebean]

Thanks, G. Still at the arena?

 

[Berkut]

How is that possible?? Both Finland and Slovakia have 4 point, but Finland is -5 and Slovakia is +2. Even more, Slovakia beat the Finns!

I don't get it...

 

[Fedz]

Finland is third, Slovakia is out... the tiebreaking procedure caused mass confusion at the arena, and the IIHF initially announced that Slovakia had advanced, but the Finns are third.

Gord, I've just got to say I'm extremely impressed with your performance at the WJC, especially the Belarus game, you've been just absolutely hilarious, two of my favourites:

"If you are just joining us, don't be afraid you have not ingested large quanities of hallucinogens, the score is actually 5-1 Belarus."

"Belarus going into the third with the lead, I wonder how they'll handle it, I don't think they've ever had this happen."

 

[sonnytheman]

How is that possible?? Both Finland and Slovakia have 4 point, but Finland is -5 and Slovakia is +2. Even more, Slovakia beat the Finns!

I don't get it...

i'm only guessing, but I think that they may only take the goals scored against the teams involved. So:

Sweden is then 7-5, +2 differential
Finland is then 5-6, -1 differential
Slovakia is then 2-3, -1 differential

Since Finland and Slovakia is tied, I'm assuming that they chose the team with the most goals (Finland). Its the only thing that makes sense, since Slovakia beat Finland head-to-head

 

[Mess]

How is that possible?? Both Finland and Slovakia have 4 point, but Finland is -5 and Slovakia is +2. Even more, Slovakia beat the Finns!

I don't get it...

Finland, Sweden and Slovaks are all tied with 4 points ..

So head to head in not used as everybody had 1 win against each other ..

So Goals for and against among the 3 tied team only determined the tie breaker ..

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/feature.asp?fid=984

 

[MOGiLNY]

ahhh I see how it is..

between the 3 teams:

Sweden: +2
Finland: -1
Slovakia: -1

Goals scored for between the 3 teams:

Sweden: 7 goals for
Finland: 5 goals for
Slovakia: 2 goals for

so there you go.. Slovaks are out because they scored the least amount of goals against Finland and Sweden..

 

[flip588]

NM

 

[Gord Miller]

Here was the problem... the tie breaking rules say that after head to head matchups and goal differential, the next criteria is "goals scored within the group". Since they used the phrase "between the tied teams" to describe the first two tie-breakers, it was unclear whether they meant games involving all the teams in group B, or just the ones between the tied teams.

It was finally determined what it meant: games betweeen the tied teams, hence Finland advances having scored 5 goals to Slovakia's two.

I'm going to bed...I have a headache.

 

[turnbuckle*]

I bet a lot of people (particularly of Slovakian persuasion) were "breaking their ties" by that point, LOL.

I'll try this again, since I can't seem to get an answer, particularly concerning the relegation round.

Canada will play either the Czechs or Finns in the semi-finals, while the Russkies will play either the Americans or Swedes, that has "finally" been decided.

I'm guessing that Slovakia will face Belarus, and Germany will play the Swiss in the relegation round, with the winners playing for 7th place overall, and the losers heading back to Division II for the 2006 WJC's. Can anyone confirm this? Do both the ninth and 10th place teams go to Division II, or just the 10-place team?

I appreciate any clarification.

 

[Doomsday Device]

I bet a lot of people (particularly of Slovakian persuasion) were "breaking their ties" by that point, LOL.

I'll try this again, since I can't seem to get an answer, particularly concerning the relegation round.

Canada will play either the Czechs or Finns in the semi-finals, while the Russkies will play either the Americans or Swedes, that has "finally" been decided.

I'm guessing that Slovakia will face Belarus, and Germany will play the Swiss in the relegation round, with the winners playing for 7th place overall, and the losers heading back to Division II for the 2006 WJC's. Can anyone confirm this? Do both the ninth and 10th place teams go to Division II, or just the 10-place team?

I appreciate any clarification.

The relegation round is like another round robin. The points in games between the four teams will be carried forward from the preliminary round. So, Switzerland will carry over 2 points from their win over Belarus, and Slovakia will carry over 2 points from their win over Germany. Then the teams from Pool A will play the teams from Pool B, who they have not faced yet. And the teams with the two lowest point totals at the end of the round will be relegated.

Edit:
You can look at the 2004 tournament to see how it unfolded last year, if I didn't explain it very well.
http://www.iihf.com/hockey/tournam/tournaments_04.htm

 

[Lexicon Devil]

What a joke of a tiebreaking procedure. Slovakia fully deserves to be through.

 

[Disco Volante]

The relegation round is like another round robin. The points in games between the four teams will be carried forward from the preliminary round. So, Switzerland will carry over 2 points from their win over Belarus, and Slovakia will carry over 2 points from their win over Germany. Then the teams from Pool A will play the teams from Pool B, who they have not faced yet. And the teams with the two lowest point totals at the end of the round will be relegated.

Edit:
You can look at the 2004 tournament to see how it unfolded last year, if I didn't explain it very well.
http://www.iihf.com/hockey/tournam/tournaments_04.htm

You mean Belarus loses its 2 pts for its win over the US?! (and Slovakia loses 2 too)... That's just euh, stupid. They clearly deserve a better fate than starting at equality with Germany (who didn't do **** all).

Switzerland will crush Germany, they're almost assured not to get relegated. The only chance Belarus has to pass over Slovakia is if they lose both their games? (against Belarus and Switzerland - assuming Belarus beats Germany)... Am I correct?

 

[MOGiLNY]

What a joke of a tiebreaking procedure. Slovakia fully deserves to be through.

based on what?

don't forget, 3 teams were tied with points, so Slovakia doesn't deserve to stay up just because they beat Finland..

 

[turnbuckle*]

You mean Belarus loses its 2 pts for its win over the US?! (and Slovakia loses 2 too)... That's just euh, stupid. They clearly deserve a better fate than starting at equality with Germany (who didn't do **** all).

Switzerland will crush Germany, they're almost assured not to get relegated. The only chance Belarus has to pass over Slovakia is if they lose both their games? (against Belarus and Switzerland - assuming Belarus beats Germany)... Am I correct?

That is absolutely insane. How could any legitimate mathematician surmise that points involving teams with superior records should be excluded?

What sort of warped system would penalize a relegation team for upsetting a heavy favourite? The only possible justification for such a format would be that there have been occasions in the past involving teams purposely throwing games.

The two-line pass is not the only "thing" that needs to be fixed.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Here is how I think it should be done...

I have no problem with goal differential between the tied teams. However, if they can only separate one team from the group with the goal differential, the tie between the two remaining teams should be separated with the procedure to separate two teams.

In other words, once it was determined that Sweden was in second place, and Finland and Slovakia were still tied for the goal differential, the Finns and Slovaks should have been separated by their head-to-head matchup, which Slovakia won 2-0.

By the IIHF's book, Finland is in. By my book, Slovakia should be in.

That is absolutely insane. How could any legitimate mathematician surmise that points involving teams with superior records should be excluded?

The relegation phase is between 4 teams. Why should games involving other teams count for anything?

 

[chicpea*]

In other words, once it was determined that Sweden was in second place, and Finland and Slovakia were still tied for the goal differential, the Finns and Slovaks should have been separated by their head-to-head matchup, which Slovakia won 2-0.

I agree. In fact, that's actually how I thought it worked until tonight.

 

[turnbuckle*]

The relegation phase is between 4 teams. Why should games involving other teams count for anything?

Given your reasoning, why should the tournament count for anything?

I'm sorry, but I see a team like Belarus, for instance, come out inspired after procuring an early lead, and upset the defending World Cup Champions. Yet, according to the current system, it is irrelevant. Never mind that it's the second-biggest victory in Belarussian history.

At the last moment, it was determined that Slovakia instead of Finland missed the playoff round. So, in other words, Slovakia's 2-0 win over Finland earlier in the tournament means SFA because Slovakia had the audacity to beat one of the "better" teams, the team that ended up edging them out by a questionable "tiebreaking' formula.

The system is flawed. A team with four points after the preliminary round can enter the relegation round with zero points despite beating teams like Russia and the USA. You are encouraged to lose to the good teams and beat the mediocre ones.

 

[Pepper]

The system is the same for all teams and decided long before the tournament starts. It might not be fair but it's equally unfair to everyone.

 

[turnbuckle*]

The system is the same for all teams and decided long before the tournament starts.

I was aware of that, and I'm not pleased with it.

[/QUOTE]It might not be fair but it's equally unfair to everyone.[/QUOTE]

Are you enacting the "two wrongs make a right" clause? I'm not a fan of that one.

Here's an idea - let the bottom teams enter the "relegation round" on the same terms as the playoff teams. Zero points, period. Why is there the inconsistency? Why is that archaic "points against common teams" mantra still being followed by the IIHF?The IIHF has changed its rules so many times in the past 20 years it's almost comical, and it still hasn't got it right.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Here's an idea - let the bottom teams enter the "relegation round" on the same terms as the playoff teams. Zero points, period. Why is there the inconsistency? Why is that archaic "points against common teams" mantra still being followed by the IIHF?The IIHF has changed its rules so many times in the past 20 years it's almost comical, and it still hasn't got it right.

Why start the relegation round with zero points, forcing two extra games that were already played during the round robin?

The round robin games played between these teams are no longer round robin games, they are now relegation games.

If you want to keep complaining about the relegation system, why don't you tell us how it should be done? Tell us how Belarus' win over the USA should count for something against Switzerland, Germany and Slovakia.