Finland: Nation of Domination

[KarmaPolice]

snark!

Olympics is the biggest for me as well as long as NHL and KHL stop for the time and there is no pressure from the teams to stop the players from playing....

Personally I think it is foolish to talk about any domination by any country. Apples/Oranges...you could just as well say that Soviet Union dominated Ice-hockey for decades because they won pretty much everything. I remember watching the Red Machine with Tretjak, Krutov, Makarov Larionov, Fetisov Kasatonov etc. That was enough to put the fear of god on anyone. But once again...apples-oranges.

There are realistically much more teams today capable of winning international tournaments than there were some 10+ years ago...
Good! Makes much more interesting tournaments! Good for the sport!

Yeah, that's a good point. Every tournament is unique, with it's own quirks, be it the Olympics, or World Hockey Championships, or the upcoming World Cup of Hockey (or whatever they're calling it; I don't have much interest in it.). But I was just being honest when I say the Olympics are truly the biggest event for me. I love the U20 Junior tournament a lot, too, but just nothing compares to the excitement of the Olympics, for me personally. But good points.

Of course Canada is ahead now. Also has always been.

That said,
I think every country should have as their open goal to be the best country in the World in hockey. What sense does it, otherwise, make to have a national hockey program? If you're just trying to be the silver guy? This can't be explained to me so any one shouldn't try. The real answer is it doesn't make any sense, it is waste of time. Finland shall work hard to become the best in the world of all, including Canada, and see how we do, period.

How close it is? Not very close, Canada could ice 3 teams filled with superstars. When / if we get there, lets see what happens.

You've added some good points, as well. I don't really know what really more I can say or add from the reply above to the previous post, except thanks to both of you for being cordial and respectful. It's appreciated. I didn't mean in any way to take anything away from the fantastic success Finland has been having lately in my post, and said a sincere congratulations to all that success; but I thought there might be SOMEONE who reads it the wrong way, lol. You know there's always that one guy out there. I guess I'll have to wait longer for that to happen; or, maybe I'll be spared. I hope so, because I'm not looking for an argument (not that I'd even consider conceding, mind you).

Again, amazing success from Finland's national teams, be they 'underage' tournaments or whatever is the case. Finland definitely deserves kudos and respect right now, and you guys have some incredible talent that I hope to watch in the NHL one day soon. Maybe even for my team, as they should be picking top 3 or so (the crappy Oilers -- Oh well).

I guess one last thing I'll add, is that I really hope the NHL and NHLPA agree to send NHL players to the next Olympics. It just wouldn't be nearly the same for me, and I would be massively disappointed. And I'd love to see a Canada/Finland match-up for the gold. Would be an incredible game, as they always are when the two teams meet.

Cheers to both you.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

100% agree. Canada is the superpower of hockey and there is no way Finland can surpass it - in the long run. I'll be happy if our team can give them a run for their money and occasionally steal some wins.

I also think Canada must feel good about it too that some other nations take this game seriously. It'd be dull if Canada could just sail to WHC gold after another by defeating others 10-1.

Personally I rather see U18 and U20 golds than a single WHC gold. The former ones tell that we are developing quality players who have a shot at making it in the NHL, which is still THE big stage. (The latter one just tells that our best players couldn't help their team enough in a Stanley Cup run. )

WHC is good for players like Laine and others who are not drafted yet.

 

[FrankMTL]

I've always been jealous of the cohesiveness of Finnish hockey teams. Even when they bring in players from different leagues, they always seems to buy into the style of play they need to win...no egos on these teams. It's like they've been playing together forever (some players in fact have always been on the same teams together, so that helps). Not the most talented, but damn, always the toughest to play against. They never give you an inch.

The Canadians on the other hand have boatloads of talented players, but they don't always gel. When they do, watch out. There are issues at the moment with the WJC U20 teams. They have so many players to choose from, yet they're never seem sure how they want to build their teams...Last years team had red flags left and right before the tournament even started.

If you had a team with Canada's talent and Finland's cohesiveness and determination, they would be unbelievably difficult to beat.

 

[FiLe]

If you had a team with Canada's talent and Finland's cohesiveness and determination, they would be unbelievably difficult to beat.

Well, we Finns are certainly working to get there with that talent aspect, as evidenced in this very thread...

 

[kabidjan18]

Behind every such words i see jealousy. If not my team, its my duty to downplay every success of other teams. It doesnt matter, how ridicule it is, i have to do it.

Why not congrats to the winners?

What about I try to arbitrarily and inaccurately guess at what is behind your words. If you try to promote Finland in any equality to Canada I should see into your soul and see mental disability because I am some magic soothsayer who can read minds and hearts. What about addressing points? :

 

[Past Considerations]

It is amazing, how Finland develop his ice hockey to top level. Such small country (5,5 mil.).

Why does the population of the country always come up? What matters more is the amount of registered players. In that list, only CAN and USA are huge, rest are small, even Russia. Finland even has more registered players than Sweden, because there soccer eats half of the athlete pool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey#Number_of_registered_players_by_country

In before: yes, there are many ways to count "registered" players and different federations have different criterias but these should be still give a good idea despite not really telling how many of them does this professionally.

 

[Past Considerations]

Future does look good....
I would not mind if they tank in the WC in a weeks time but come back strong for the Cup in August.
But just looking at the talent out there coming out of the woodworks now....they should really have project "Gold in PyeongChang 2018" going now....let us just hope NHL and IOC will come to agreement before then as the bulk of our new talent will be about to enter NHL or playing their first year there then....

Ehm, lower your expectations a bit. In two years from now 2018 OC is already over, and by then not even Barkov is in his prime age yet. Lets see again in 2022. If the last OC team was full of old farts, the next team is probably going to be the youngest in the tournament. Young and inexperienced team usually isn't a plus in the Olympics though.

 

[jj cale]

I've always been jealous of the cohesiveness of Finnish hockey teams. Even when they bring in players from different leagues, they always seems to buy into the style of play they need to win...no egos on these teams. It's like they've been playing together forever (some players in fact have always been on the same teams together, so that helps). Not the most talented, but damn, always the toughest to play against. They never give you an inch.

The Canadians on the other hand have boatloads of talented players, but they don't always gel. When they do, watch out. There are issues at the moment with the WJC U20 teams. They have so many players to choose from, yet they're never seem sure how they want to build their teams...Last years team had red flags left and right before the tournament even started.

If you had a team with Canada's talent and Finland's cohesiveness and determination, they would be unbelievably difficult to beat.

I think the image of Finlands supposed cohesiveness is a bit of a mirage that has built up mostly around their recent success in Olympic play more then anything across the board. I do not think they have a whole lot more going for them there then a few other teams, I have seen plenty of Finnish teams over the years that just did not come together or gel well and flopped quite badly.

This image of "cohesiveness" with Finlands teams seems to be a rather recent phenomenon espoused on here but for decades I don't recall it ever being called a trait of Finnish hockey.

I dunno though, maybe they will show in the next decade that it truly does exist for sure.

I could be wrong, it just seems like a recent way of how both we and they look at their hockey.

 

[FiLe]

This image of "cohesiveness" with Finlands teams seems to be a rather recent phenomenon espoused on here but for decades I don't recall it ever being called a trait of Finnish hockey.

Yet, somehow, it's perhaps the biggest reason Finns themselves name, when taking an account of their hockey success over the past 30 years or so...

Whether it really is that much better when compared to other teams or not is of course something we could always debate, but calling it "a recent phenomenon" is just dead wrong. That notion's been around since Finland won its first medal at the Calgary games in 1988.

 

[Jussi]

Why does the population of the country always come up? What matters more is the amount of registered players. In that list, only CAN and USA are huge, rest are small, even Russia. Finland even has more registered players than Sweden, because there soccer eats half of the athlete pool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey#Number_of_registered_players_by_country

In before: yes, there are many ways to count "registered" players and different federations have different criterias but these should be still give a good idea despite not really telling how many of them does this professionally.

Not really, as you yourself mentioned, we've discussed it in other threads already, those numbers aren't fully reliable due to the different methods each federation counts registered players. E.g. Russia doesn't include juniors under the age of 10 or in some areas players outside the first team and I 'm not sure they count rec players either (Sweden doesn't). Russian posters evaluated that their actual figure of people playing some form of organized hockey to be around 300K.

 

[FiLe]

Not really, as you yourself mentioned, we've discussed it in other threads already, those numbers aren't fully reliable due to the different methods each federation counts registered players. E.g. Russia doesn't include juniors under the age of 10 or in some areas players outside the first team and I 'm not sure they count rec players either (Sweden doesn't).

...and Finland counts even every beer league player.

 

[roto]

Personally I rather see U18 and U20 golds than a single WHC gold. The former ones tell that we are developing quality players who have a shot at making it in the NHL, which is still THE big stage. (The latter one just tells that our best players couldn't help their team enough in a Stanley Cup run. )

U20 and U18 gold medals just tell that players were good enough at that time to win a tournament with other juniors. If we look at the Finland U20 2014 roster, is it a proof ability to produce good NHL players? Those players are now 21-22 years old and of the forwards only Teräväinen has played in NHL so far, Lehkonen will have chance in NHL but others... It's likely that most of them won't be top players even in Liiga. Future projections of defensemen from that team look more promising though. From 1998 U20 gold team were developed 3 NHL players, Niko Kapanen, few euro level players, many Liiga players and a big bunch of nobodies.

Only continuous success in junior tournaments means that there will likely be at least few NHL caliber players in each age group. WHC golds mean that even though many of the best players are playing NHL playoffs or have declined, there's still enough depth in quality player pool to get the gold. It's like cashing the expectations. It means that we actually have developed good players and not just dreamed of it.

As said earlier, most of the Finnish junior gold team members won't ever be star players even in KHL or Liiga. That's the sad truth that is easy to forget when it rains junior gold medals.

 

[jalperi]

If we take look about ouer U20 teams from 2012 and 2016 next names are notables:

2012 pos. 4th
Aittokallio
Gibson

Määttä
Pokka
Ristolainen
Hakanpää

Armia
Barkov
Donskoi
Granlund
Granlund
Pulkkinen
Salomäki
Hännikäinen

2013 pos 7th
Laurikainen
Korpisalo
Juvonen

Lindbohm
Määttä
Pokka
Ristolainen

Armia
Barkov
Granlund
Hännikäinen
Lehkonen
Salomäki
Teräväinen

2014 gold
Husso
Saros

Honka
Lindell
Pokka
Ristolainen
Vainonen

Lehkonen
Teräväinen

2015 pos 7th
Husso
Kähkönen
Saros

Honka
Lyytinen
Lintuniemi

Aho
Kapanen
Lehkonen
Puljujärvi
Rantanen

2016 pos: gold
Kähkönen
Vehviläinen

Juolevi
Saarijärvi

Aho
Kapanen
Laine
Puljujärvi
Rantanen
Saarela
Lammikko

And this years U18 team:
2016 U18
Luukkonen?

Jokiharju
Niemeläinen
Vaakanainen
Välimäki

Puljujärvi
Tolvanen
Vesalainen

We can see that our 2012 U20-team was very good, especially forwards were good, defence was super talented, but talented guys were two year underages. Coaching wasnt so good so we didnt get medal thought it was very close. On 2013 our teams forwards were also very good, but now the coaching was almost unclassified and position was poor. On 2014 we had good 1st center, good defence and goalies and excellent coaching, results was gold despite that there wasnt depth on forwards. Again last year our coaching wasnt so good and no depth on defence or forward, results were not good. This year goalie were good, we had super-line and also forward depht was good with good first pair defenders and also very good coaching.
Our that years U18 team is widely high talented and names what are mentioned are only top of iceberg and i could make optimistic predict that over half of team will play on NHL.

 

[Stoat]

And this years U18 team:
2016 U18
Luukkonen?

Jokiharju
Niemeläinen
Vaakanainen
Välimäki

Puljujärvi
Tolvanen
Vesalainen

Janne Kuokkanen should be on that list. Without Laine and Puljujärvi, he would be the forward we would be talking about this summer.

 

[jalperi]

Janne Kuokkanen should be on that list. Without Laine and Puljujärvi, he would be the forward we would be talking about this summer.

Yeah, as I made optimistict predict over half of team (12 or more) will play on NHL so they would have mentioned on the list too, but its hard to predict which ones.. Salo and Kuokkanen are of course very likely safe bets. Räsänen maybe could be one too.

 

[jj cale]

Yet, somehow, it's perhaps the biggest reason Finns themselves name, when taking an account of their hockey success over the past 30 years or so...

Whether it really is that much better when compared to other teams or not is of course something we could always debate, but calling it "a recent phenomenon" is just dead wrong. That notion's been around since Finland won its first medal at the Calgary games in 1988.

Well you would know how long the notion has been around in Finland but around here it seems to be a recent thing.

 

[KimmoV]

Ehm, lower your expectations a bit. In two years from now 2018 OC is already over, and by then not even Barkov is in his prime age yet. Lets see again in 2022. If the last OC team was full of old farts, the next team is probably going to be the youngest in the tournament. Young and inexperienced team usually isn't a plus in the Olympics though.

fair enough....realistically it is probably too early. Does not stop me from dreaming though...For the first time in.....well...almost ever...we have so many promising guys about to transit to the big leagues or have just recently done that the next few years will be fun to follow them develop.
2022 they could potentially rip the place apart if they all would live up to their potential.
in any case, exciting times ahead.

 

[snipes]

I actually don't blame you guys for your optimism, you're finally producing multiple stars in similar age groups. I'm excited to see how your young lions will do in the NHL, hoping one of them comes to play with McDavid.

Enjoy the success at the junior level . We'll be coming for the Gold back in our country next year, this time you're the favourites with a target on you.

 

[Hagged]

I actually don't blame you guys for your optimism, you're finally producing multiple stars in similar age groups. I'm excited to see how your young lions will do in the NHL, hoping one of them comes to play with McDavid.

Enjoy the success at the junior level . We'll be coming for the Gold back in our country next year, this time you're the favourites with a target on you.

I think Finland is up for a decline. 2017 might go without a finn in top 10, 2018 without a finn in first round. If it continues for long Finland might start dwindling down when goalie development goes dry and Laine, Barkov, Risto, and Pulju start retiring..

Even if a better year would be there, there won't likely ever be another goalscoring prospect like Laine in our lifetime. Finland just doesn't produce enough legenda like Sweden/Canada for that to happen.

 

[Eidyia]

Enjoy the success at the junior level . We'll be coming for the Gold back in our country next year, this time you're the favourites with a target on you.

If by some miracle all of Laine, Aho, Pulju and Juolevi will be available we could have an amazingly stacked team for the next years U20's as well:

Laine - Aho - Puljujärvi

Saarela - Nättinen - Tolvanen

Vesalainen - Räsänen - Tammela

Björkqvist - Kuokkanen - Tuulola

(+ Mäkinen, Tavernier, Somppi, Borgström...)


Juolevi - Niemeläinen

Välimäki - Saarijärvi

Vaakanainen - Salo

Felixson

(+ Vainio, Kotkansalo, Jokiharju...)


Vehviläinen
Ruusu
Luukkonen
(+ Heljanko, Vikstén...)


So, bring it on!

 

[snipes]

If by some miracle all of Laine, Aho, Pulju and Juolevi will be available we could have an amazingly stacked team for the next years U20's as well:

Laine - Aho - Puljujärvi

So, bring it on!

It'll take a miracle for those young lions to be available. They'll be full time NHLers next year.

Come over to Canada if you can make it, have some beers with Canadian fans, we love the Finns over here.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Even one of Laine, Aho, Pulju could be a difference maker in Canada when the next WJC begins. Finns will have many great 17-year old players.

 

[Eidyia]

It'll take a miracle for those young lions to be available. They'll be full time NHLers next year.

Come over to Canada if you can make it, have some beers with Canadian fans, we love the Finns over here.

I agree. So maybe this once we can use the excuse of not having all our best players.

And I love Canada! I've been there two times as my sister used to study and work near Toronto.

 

[snipes]

I agree. So maybe this once we can use the excuse of not having all our best players.

And I love Canada! I've been there two times as my sister used to study and work near Toronto.

The struggle is real. Just think, we could have had Aaron Ekblad and Connor McDavid there last year . McDavid could even be at the 2017 WJC, obviously he won't be.

That's awesome, if you can make it out you should go, it'll be a great tournament again. We're in different groups in 2017, Finland plays in Montreal for the round robin.

 

[Jussi]

I actually don't blame you guys for your optimism, you're finally producing multiple stars in similar age groups. I'm excited to see how your young lions will do in the NHL, hoping one of them comes to play with McDavid.

Enjoy the success at the junior level . We'll be coming for the Gold back in our country next year, this time you're the favourites with a target on you.

No we're not. Canada's still the favorite.