Euro: Final - Spain v. England - July 14

[phisherman]

Each to their own, but i disagree. England had many problems but in my eyes (and that of many) they were a good defensive side and both Stones and Guehi played well throughout. The fullbacks were frequently a problem though, i was very surprised to see Walker make the TOTT.

Good defensively but always giving up the first goal against any decent team during the tournament?

 

[les Habs]

Agreed. Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Silva... All great players but the impact of Rodri is bigger IMO. Frankly, and I've taken heat for saying this but I think at his peak he is a better player than Busquets, and that's not a slight on Busi but remarking how good Rodri is IMO

Yeah, being behind Rodri doesn't mean your garbage. All those names are top drawer players. I mean take Xabi Alonso for instance. I've seen few players kick his opponents more than he did.

Seriously though, I'm of the mind that Busquets is better than Rodri, but it's so close I can see it both ways. I think their styles were different though.

I remember how high you were on Rodri back in the day. You were right, I was wrong. He's been better than I thought he'd be.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

My take is basically that there are three distinct tiers for the 2006-2016 (or so) group of Spanish midfielders.

Xavi + Iniesta

Busquets

Alonso, Fabregas, Silva

There is, IMO, no argument for Rodri in Tier 1.

There is an argument for Rodri on the Busquets tier based on peak level of play.

For me, he's on the third tier with Alonso, Fabregas, and Silva. If he plays at his current level for a few more seasons, he's definitely in the Busquets tier.

 

[Evilo]

My take is basically that there are three distinct tiers for the 2006-2016 (or so) group of Spanish midfielders.

Xavi + Iniesta

Busquets

Alonso, Fabregas, Silva

There is, IMO, no argument for Rodri in Tier 1.

There is an argument for Rodri on the Busquets tier based on peak level of play.

For me, he's on the third tier with Alonso, Fabregas, and Silva. If he plays at his current level for a few more seasons, he's definitely in the Busquets tier.

I agree except I'm hesitant to put Cesc in tier 2. I think I'd probably put him there.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I agree except I'm hesitant to put Cesc in tier 2. I think I'd probably put him there.

I find Cesc extremely difficult to place, because it feels like there are so many different versions of him that it's tougher to cleanly compare him to guys who played basically the same role for their entire career.

Arsenal Cesc is different than Barca Cesc is different than Spain Cesc is different than Chelsea Cesc.

 

[Evilo]

I find Cesc extremely difficult to place, because it feels like there are so many different versions of him that it's tougher to cleanly compare him to guys who played basically the same role for their entire career.

Arsenal Cesc is different than Barca Cesc is different than Spain Cesc is different than Chelsea Cesc.

True and I don't like the guy. Still his heights are higher than those in tier 3 IMO.

 

[lindros07]

-Fabregas, who you’re saying In your hypothetical would play close to the penalty area, played a completely different role than Rodri does. Fabregas was a CM and even AM at times, Rodri is largely a DM.
-Those numbers are impressive, but stats don’t equal performance. Fabregas put up great numbers at Barca and wasn’t even a top 3 midfielder there. In fact, everyone I know, myself included, hated the fact we signed him in the first place one reason being because it took minutes away from Thiago.
-Again, stats don’t equal performance. Rodri has been a more influential player in his career than Fabregas was.

To say that Rodri doesn’t hold a candle to the best Fabregas is a ridiculous statement.

Thiago Alcântara? Hahahahah , With all due respect, I want to see Rodri perform like this with Tottenham, with Manchester City any good player stands out, Fabregas had 30 g/a in a single Premier season in an average Arsenal after changing stadium, the day Rodri does similar I can compare him with Fabregas.

Agreed. Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Silva... All great players but the impact of Rodri is bigger IMO. Frankly, and I've taken heat for saying this but I think at his peak he is a better player than Busquets, and that's not a slight on Busi but remarking how good Rodri is IMO

Tell me the impact on Rodri for the Spanish team at the Euros? How many goals, assists? The olmo had much more direct impact, Do you believe in football without goals? You guys seem to see another game, Without guys like Olmo, Yamal and Williams, Spain would have the same fate as in 2014 ( With Xavi Iniesta And busquets) , 2016 (Iniesta , busquets) , 2018 (Iniesta, Busquets) , Those who really impact the game and make the difference are these guys who put the ball in the net and make the decisive pass.

 

[Evilo]

I disagree with the last part as you can impact the game without scoring.

However I do agree Rodri benefits from his team's system.
As we've seen plenty of times City players in a different environment struggle much more (sign of a great coach obviously). Foden, De Bruyne, Haaland, Ake, Laporte, Ruben Dias, etc...
But Xavi was considered a very good player and nothing else until his Barca became unplayable. Most players considered all time greats have benefited of their context and it's hard to pin that against them.

 

[les Habs]

Dele Alli had 18 goals and 7 assists in one Premiership season. Rodri hasn’t done that yet, therefore Alli is the better player. Got it.

As for City players, Haaland, Rodri and De Bruyne were all very good players before ever playing for City.

 

[Evilo]

Dele Alli had 18 goals and 7 assists in one Premiership season. Rodri hasn’t done that yet, therefore Alli is the better player. Got it.

As for City players, Haaland, Rodri and De Bruyne were all very good players before ever playing for City.

Very good.
Not top 2-3 at their position.

 

[les Habs]

Very good.
Not top 2-3 at their position.

They were also quite young to be top 2-3 in their position.

 

[Evilo]

They were also quite young to be top 2-3 in their position.

Pep made them perform higher than their own standards. And when they play for their NT, they're just good players again.

 

[cgf]

Haaland was world class before Pep and KdB was a real stud.

 

[Evilo]

Right now when Haaland or KDB have an awful game (which has NOT been a rare occurrence), nobody cares because they're still winning. When you win 3-0 with Haaland missing two sitters, it's not even a talking point. Even when he sucks and he has a tapin goal, he's praised for it.
In previous clubs or with the NT, the pressure is much higher and when they don't deliver it becomes obvious.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Right now when Haaland or KDB have an awful game (which has NOT been a rare occurrence), nobody cares because they're still winning. When you win 3-0 with Haaland missing two sitters, it's not even a talking point. Even when he sucks and he has a tapin goal, he's praised for it.
In previous clubs or with the NT, the pressure is much higher and when they don't deliver it becomes obvious.

Couldn't we say that for every player that plays in a dominant club?

 

[Evilo]

Couldn't we say that for every player that plays in a dominant club?

On teams that have great coaches yes. Which aren't many.

 

[Live in the Now]

Look at Wijnaldum with a great coach (f***ing amazing) vs. without (just good).

 

[cgf]

On teams that have great coaches yes. Which aren't many.

But it's not like Pep turned Erling world class. Haaland was already a monster for Dortmund, they just didn't have as good of a team around him...or as good of a coach.

With KdB there's more of a case that he took a rising star on the level of Simons or Olmo and turned him into the gold standard for the better part of a decade. But even there de Bruyne was already fantastic for Wolfsburg.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

KdB was the most impressive player I've ever seen in the Bundesliga. Top, top, top, top player.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I'm fascinated by this discourse mainly because really the main (and probably only?) thing that makes me raise an eyebrow towards Pep (when I think of how he is positioned in the grand ranking of managers) is that I struggle to think of many players who he really made look significantly better than they actually were. He's good at making 8.5 players look like 10s, but I can't think of a single example of him turning a 5 into an 8.5.

Who is Pep's Darren Fletcher? His Tom Cleverley?

Foden looking lost without Pep at the Euros to me isn't proof that Pep makes him look better than he is, IMO. It's just that Foden developed in a system where he's told what to do always and knows exactly what to do. If Foden were placed in a different team, but with a competent manager, I think he'd still look great.

 

[Evilo]

But it's not like Pep turned Erling world class. Haaland was already a monster for Dortmund, they just didn't have as good of a team around him...or as good of a coach.

With KdB there's more of a case that he took a rising star on the level of Simons or Olmo and turned him into the gold standard for the better part of a decade. But even there de Bruyne was already fantastic for Wolfsburg.

Haaland has scored more against better defensemen.
Clearly he has been more productive.
And KdB is still Meh with Belgium. Now. He clearly looks much netter with City than out of it.

I'm fascinated by this discourse mainly because really the main (and probably only?) thing that makes me raise an eyebrow towards Pep (when I think of how he is positioned in the grand ranking of managers) is that I struggle to think of many players who he really made look significantly better than they actually were. He's good at making 8.5 players look like 10s, but I can't think of a single example of him turning a 5 into an 8.5.

Who is Pep's Darren Fletcher? His Tom Cleverley?

Foden looking lost without Pep at the Euros to me isn't proof that Pep makes him look better than he is, IMO. It's just that Foden developed in a system where he's told what to do always and knows exactly what to do. If Foden were placed in a different team, but with a competent manager, I think he'd still look great.

Was Ake really more than a 5 before joining?

 

[phisherman]

Imagine thinking Fletcher and Cleverley were 8.5s.

Maybe when they played Arsenal and them and O'Shea play the game of their lives each time against them.

 

[cgf]

Haaland has scored more against better defensemen.
Clearly he has been more productive.
And KdB is still Meh with Belgium. Now. He clearly looks much netter with City than out of it.


Was Ake really more than a 5 before joining?

Everyone scores more in the EPL, you have to take numbers from that league with a grain of salt.

I'm fascinated by this discourse mainly because really the main (and probably only?) thing that makes me raise an eyebrow towards Pep (when I think of how he is positioned in the grand ranking of managers) is that I struggle to think of many players who he really made look significantly better than they actually were. He's good at making 8.5 players look like 10s, but I can't think of a single example of him turning a 5 into an 8.5.

Who is Pep's Darren Fletcher? His Tom Cleverley?

Foden looking lost without Pep at the Euros to me isn't proof that Pep makes him look better than he is, IMO. It's just that Foden developed in a system where he's told what to do always and knows exactly what to do. If Foden were placed in a different team, but with a competent manager, I think he'd still look great.

Rafinha & Bernat?

 

[Evilo]

Everyone scores more in the EPL, you have to take numbers from that league with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't know, every middle of the road L1 guy torches Bundesliga. This isn't the case in England.

 

[cgf]

I wouldn't know, every middle of the road L1 guy torches Bundesliga. This isn't the case in England.

Even timo got sent to the EPL to regain his confidence when the BuLi was too tough for him. Everyone scores more there.

Not our fault French teams only learn how to play when they don’t have the ball