Olympics: Final qualification - 26 to 29 August 2021

[salamandra]

Fact is for many of the smal countries, Danes, Norway, Latvia, Slovakia, Slovenia...
That if you remove lets say the 10 best, they are truly weaken.

In the Slovakia squad were missing Cernak, Sekera, Fehervary, Cajkovsky (best Dmen), Tatar, Panik (best Forwards), other forwards (M. Pospisil, Bakos). And the same quality level like Roman, Dano and Kelemen (players who played on OGQ) are Liska, Skalicky, Krivosik, Regenda, Kristof, Holesinsky, Hrehorcak, R. Bondra, Cajkovic, (little bit worse are: Okuliar, Fasko-Rudas, Gaspar, Bucek, Sukel, Lunter, Paulovic, etc...)
Young guns: Mrazik, Chromiak, Jedlicka, Kolenic, Kaslik, Mesar etc

Are you still thinking that slovakia has some problem with missing players ?

 

[Jan]

For starters, you grouped Slovenia with countries like Slovakia, Latvia and Denmark.

Slovenia has a less developed hockey system with even less depth than some 4th or 5th tier countries. They literally only have half a dozen decent players and a dozen serviceable ones. Without them, they would have trouble beating the likes of Lithuania or Estonia.

Slovakia, Latvia and most of the other countries could ice 4 or 5 full rosters of different players and still beat Poland with every single one of them.

And newsflash - they usually are missing around 5 to 10 of their best players in the Worlds anyway.

My point is not about their ranking but size and numbers of hockey players. The lest numbers, the shorter the rangs is.
In principle the best plyer in Luxembourg could be as good as the best in say Russia.
It may even be the same of the second best, but I can guaranty that numbers would ensure it would not count for the third as well.

That is why small country will sooner become weaker, as they has to look longer down into the line up for replacement.

And yes I could had included Lithuania and Estonia and a few ore country. I included Slovenia because they exactly have one NHL super star.

And yes the hockey culture matters of the single countries, but smaller country will always have a slimmer lineup and will always depend more on less players.

So in a sense, he is right, remove the best player from example Belorussia and it will be much weaker team.

When Denmark had just about rose to the B group, they player a game against a team from the second best league of Sweden and won. If you remove enough for the big countries it also count.

You can discuss how interesting that is, and it was not interesting any way and was never done again.

But to say that you can remove 5-10 best players from the Latvian team and say they will surely win against the best of Belorussian.
I am not sure they could. I will guess it will be an even match.

It has never happen.

 

[Jan]

In the Slovakia squad were missing Cernak, Sekera, Fehervary, Cajkovsky (best Dmen), Tatar, Panik (best Forwards), other forwards (M. Pospisil, Bakos). And the same quality level like Roman, Dano and Kelemen (players who played on OGQ) are Liska, Skalicky, Krivosik, Regenda, Kristof, Holesinsky, Hrehorcak, R. Bondra, Cajkovic, (little bit worse are: Okuliar, Fasko-Rudas, Gaspar, Bucek, Sukel, Lunter, Paulovic, etc...)
Young guns: Mrazik, Chromiak, Jedlicka, Kolenic, Kaslik, Mesar etc

Are you still thinking that slovakia has some problem with missing players ?

I only know that you didn't do too well at the last world cup and what number needed to make you team weak enough to compare with say best of Belorussia, more than is needed to be removed from Denmark, Latvia and Norway, but much less than needed to be removed from Sweden and Finland.
That was also not my point. The smaller number of hockey player, the sooner you come to that point.
That was my point.

You has a very good team, and lucky you.

 

[kabidjan18]

My point is not about their ranking but size and numbers of hockey players. The lest numbers, the shorter the rangs is.
In principle the best plyer in Luxembourg could be as good as the best in say Russia.
It may even be the same of the second best, but I can guaranty that numbers would ensure it would not count for the third as well.

That is why small country will sooner become weaker, as they has to look longer down into the line up for replacement.

And yes I could had included Lithuania and Estonia and a few ore country. I included Slovenia because they exactly have one NHL super star.

And yes the hockey culture matters of the single countries, but smaller country will always have a slimmer lineup and will always depend more on less players.

So in a sense, he is right, remove the best player from example Belorussia and it will be much weaker team.

When Denmark had just about rose to the B group, they player a game against a team from the second best league of Sweden and won. If you remove enough for the big countries it also count.

You can discuss how interesting that is, and it was not interesting any way and was never done again.

But to say that you can remove 5-10 best players from the Latvian team and say they will surely win against the best of Belorussian.
I am not sure they could. I will guess it will be an even match.

It has never happen.

Latvia-5 for me are still favorites vs Belarus.

But more so, Latvia and Belarus are on the same tier of teams. Slovenia is not the same tier. They had one generation with like 5-6 good players but those players are old now. You're trying to apply the principle with no respect to the respective parties. Sweden and Belarus have about the same number of citizens, Sweden could probably field 3 different teams that can beat Belarus, and the same is true the further you go down. Sweden's population ratio against Poland's is probably the same as Belarus, but would you argue that without 10 players Sweden and Poland are equal? No of course not. And as drastic of an example as that seems, for reasons others listed, it's not actually more reasonable for Belarus as well.

Hockey culture matters for everything. Population matters for very little if anything.

 

[Jan]

Latvia-5 for me are still favorites vs Belarus.

But more so, Latvia and Belarus are on the same tier of teams. Slovenia is not the same tier. They had one generation with like 5-6 good players but those players are old now. You're trying to apply the principle with no respect to the respective parties. Sweden and Belarus have about the same number of citizens, Sweden could probably field 3 different teams that can beat Belarus, and the same is true the further you go down. Sweden's population ratio against Poland's is probably the same as Belarus, but would you argue that without 10 players Sweden and Poland are equal? No of course not. And as drastic of an example as that seems, for reasons others listed, it's not actually more reasonable for Belarus as well.

Hockey culture matters for everything. Population matters for very little if anything.

Where did I say 10 players from Sweden?
When Danmark was on the level where Poland is now, it was the entire SEL and NHL player that had to be removed for be equal.

Belarus, is not that bad. They are an elevator team, that is true.
And Latvia has a good team and two, (now one sadly) very good goaltenders. Five players of and Belarus may have a chance.
10 they has a better chance.

 

[kabidjan18]

Where did I say 10 players from Sweden?
When Danmark was on the level where Poland is now, it was the entire SEL and NHL player that had to be removed for be equal.

Belarus, is not that bad. They are an elevator team, that is true.
And Latvia has a good team and two, (now one sadly) very good goaltenders. Five players of and Belarus may have a chance.
10 they has a better chance.

You didn't mention Sweden, I mentioned Sweden to illustrate how little national population has to do with hockey talent production.

Like I said Latvia and Belarus are on the same level. Poland is not. That's the topic at hand here. Anything can happen in one game, I mean, anything literally did happen in one game because Poland beat Belarus. Over larger samples, Poland is just not on the level of those other teams. You'd have to remove maybe 30 players for them to win 5 in 10 matchups. Poland had basically everyone in this tournament, while every other team in the group was missing at a minimum half a dozen players, and they still finished last.

 

[Jan]

You didn't mention Sweden, I mentioned Sweden to illustrate how little national population has to do with hockey talent production.

Like I said Latvia and Belarus are on the same level. Poland is not. That's the topic at hand here. Anything can happen in one game, I mean, anything literally did happen in one game because Poland beat Belarus. Over larger samples, Poland is just not on the level of those other teams. You'd have to remove maybe 30 players for them to win 5 in 10 matchups. Poland had basically everyone in this tournament, while every other team in the group was missing at a minimum half a dozen players, and they still finished last.

And this conversation never was about Poland being equal.

It started about removing five best player from the Latvian team and then Latvia and Belarusian would be quite equal.

I will say remove the two goaltenders of the Latvian team and it could be more equal than most Latvian would like.
But then they would not play Latvia, would they?

Yes we will have to remove more player, before coming down on the level of Poland.
Will Belorussia, Denmark, Latvia and Norway be better than Poland if the ten best would not be on the team?
the three last most probably, maybe even Belorussia.
15? maybe the three Denmark, Latvia and Norway would still be better, but I am not so sure anymore.
20, then I do not think so, that would be too many.

 

[kabidjan18]

And this conversation never was about Poland being equal.

It started about removing five best player from the Latvian team and then Latvia and Belarusian would be quite equal.

I will say remove the two goaltenders of the Latvian team and it could be more equal than most Latvian would like.
But then they would not play Latvia, would they?

Yes we will have to remove more player, before coming down on the level of Poland.
Will Belorussia, Denmark, Latvia and Norway be better than Poland if the ten best would not be on the team?
the three last most probably, maybe even Belorussia.
15? maybe the three Denmark, Latvia and Norway would still be better, but I am not so sure anymore.
20, then I do not think so, that would be too many.

This is the post you liked and quoted.

remove belarus top 5 players, then its no difference in quality beetween belarus and poland

 

[Namejs]

And this conversation never was about Poland being equal.

It started about removing five best player from the Latvian team and then Latvia and Belarusian would be quite equal.

I will say remove the two goaltenders of the Latvian team and it could be more equal than most Latvian would like.
But then they would not play Latvia, would they?

Yes we will have to remove more player, before coming down on the level of Poland.
Will Belorussia, Denmark, Latvia and Norway be better than Poland if the ten best would not be on the team?
the three last most probably, maybe even Belorussia.
15? maybe the three Denmark, Latvia and Norway would still be better, but I am not so sure anymore.
20, then I do not think so, that would be too many.

Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but all of the replies to your post are regarding Poland since you quoted and responded to a post discussing Poland.

All of your other points are flat out wrong too, though.

We have about 6 goaltenders who wouldn't affect the placing of our national team 'A' in a negative way - Merzlikins, Kalnins, Punnenovs, Silovs, Gudlevskis, Mitens. If you remove the best two, what you get is Punnenovs, who conceded 1 goal against Hungary, Italy and France combined.

If you would remove the 20 best players, what you get is

Karsums (DEL) - Smirnovs (NLA) - Tralmaks (AHL)
Jevpalovs (ICEHL) - Bicevskis (CZE)- Egle (AHL)
Jelisejevs (KHL) - Svanenbergs (KHL) - Redlihs (Latvia, ex-KHL)
Kulda (VHL) - Svanenbergs (KHL) - Meija (KHL)

Bartulis (Latvia, ex-NHL/KHL) - Kulda (DEL)
Cukste (KHL) - Siksna (VHL)
Bindulis (CZE) - Skvorcovs (KHL)
Smons (NLA)

Punnenovs (NLA)
Silovs (AHL)
Gudlevskis (SVK, ex-NHL)

4 players with NHL experience, 6 more with AHL experience or playing there, 9 more with KHL experience or playing there. That makes 19 out of 22 players.

If you're saying this team wouldn't hand Polish asses to them, you don't know what you're talking about and probably should find a new hobby.

There literally are people like Biezais and several others who have been dominant in the Polish league and wouldn't make our C roster. The entire Polish national team consists of Polish domestic league players.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Shocking to see Martins "NHLe says I could play 3rd line in the NHL" Karsums relegated to the 2nd team

Also, although I agree with your sentiment the post is full of holes. Best Polish players do play abroad, Biezais would likely make the team since you slotted Svanenbergs in twice. In general, he is doing great in DEL2 so him dominating in the Polish league isn't that big of a knock against it. It's more of a question why is he constantly omitted from the NT, he and Bicevskis might very well be at the same level.

When Latvia sent a truly scrubby roster to play friendlies in Poland this spring they got outclassed 4-1. So you are really overdoing it with the whole "Latvia stronk" agenda. Pretty much everyone from the Latvian league would be lucky to play in Poland.

 

[kabidjan18]

Ooh it's an HF International Boards classic, Namejs vs. SoundAndFury. Can't wait to seee it.

Namejs does always have an agenda haha. But in fairness to Latvia that was their U23 team, against Poland but Poland was also missing players, it's weird. The Latvian league is worse but even if all those players above failed to show, they'd still never bring players from the Latvian league. They could still bring Biezais, or Raivis Anons, or Zintis Nauris Zusevics. Or give Poland some of their own medicine and bring Frenks Razgals.

Thing is, if nothing else Latvia's playstyle is probably the most meta playstyle right now. They're a very disciplined team, at all levels of hockey from U18s to Senior, they're big and physical, solid 2 way forwards and big stay at home defensemen, excellent goaltending. I would compare them to the Stars or the Canadiens in the NHL.

They're a threat to better teams than them in theory in the same way Poland can somewhat be to better teams than them, but Poland is like the "we have Latvia at home" version. Poland would be playing a better version of themselves. And it's an attribute of the system, not just of a few players, so Latvia could bring many reinforcements, they'd get the same job done just with slightly less effectiveness. So even if some countries see a greater drop off in effectiveness, Latvia wouldn't be one of them. But I think we're all in agreement on that.

Poland beat Kazakhstan, they beat Belarus, they beat a lot of good teams to get where they did. I'm very respectful of that. They are good at playing defensive disciplined hockey. However, Latvia is the hardest team to upset, no matter the roster changes because they also have a great system.

 

[Czechboy]

Danes have a decent shot winning one game against ROI, CZE and SWI. ROI and CZE are easily worst top 2 tier teams in these groups. SWE and FIN and CAN and USA are easily better than ROI and CZE.

SWI have overall better depth, but Ehlers is the best player in that match up.

I'd seperate Russians from Czechs.. they are currently a notch above.

There are basically 5 gold medal contenders and our group (assuming you are cheering for Denmark) only has 1 gold medal contender while the other 2 groups have 2 gold medal contenders.

Having said that.. Czechs, Swiss and Danes could all end up tied after swapping wins against each others. While I don't necessarily fear a Danish team at World's.. their best on best team could absolutely beat Czechs or the Swiss. I wouldn't be that shocked to be honest and fully expect it.

I also think all 3 teams could give Russia a good fight but we will see.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Pretty much everyone from the Latvian league would be lucky to play in Poland.

I was under the impression that latvia league is better than ever.

 

[Namejs]

Shocking to see Martins "NHLe says I could play 3rd line in the NHL" Karsums relegated to the 2nd team

Also, although I agree with your sentiment the post is full of holes. Best Polish players do play abroad, Biezais would likely make the team since you slotted Svanenbergs in twice. In general, he is doing great in DEL2 so him dominating in the Polish league isn't that big of a knock against it. It's more of a question why is he constantly omitted from the NT, he and Bicevskis might very well be at the same level.



When Latvia sent a truly scrubby roster to play friendlies in Poland this spring they got outclassed 4-1. So you are really overdoing it with the whole "Latvia stronk" agenda. Pretty much everyone from the Latvian league would be lucky to play in Poland.

I'm not sure I follow your point about Karsums. How does him being in the Latvian B team somehow contradict the fact he could be playing in the NHL as successfully as some of the scrubs from Team Canada v2021?

I am not going to discuss any side-arguments you made. No one is discussing the quality of the Latvian league, the quality of the Polish league or how good or bad of a player Biezais is. He has never made the squad and he never will.

There are 250+ Latvian players abroad, the Latvian league is entirely irrelevant here. Only the D/E teams would have more than a couple of domestic league players. And even at that point these would be dominating veteran players with KHL experience who could be playing in better leagues abroad, if they had the willingness to do it.

The Latvian B team would crush Poland. I know it, you know it and everyone with connected brain hemispheres and a basic grasp of international hockey knows it too.

The Latvian C team would still be a slightly better team than Poland.

 

[Namejs]

I was under the impression that latvia league is better than ever.

Yes, it is, but it is not exactly a commercially succesful league. You have to differentiate between skill and salaries.

They actually pay liveable salaries to players in the Polish league purely due to it being a bigger market. The Poland-based players aren't better skill-wise, many of them are worse.

So if you don't have an education, a good job or a family, you would love to play in Poland instead of Latvia as a hockey player.

All you get by playing in Latvia is extremely tough opposition relative to the pennies you get by playing there.

 

[SoundAndFury]

how good or bad of a player Biezais is. He has never made the squad and he never will.

I don't know how could you say it with such certainty when the WC team had Batna on it 2 years in a row whom most would consider to be a worse player.

I was under the impression that latvia league is better than ever.

It is. But it's still a league with very few professional players who either want to settle down back home or treat it as a stopgap. Polish league, meanwhile, is fully professional (at least the top 7 teams) and offers a decent living by Eastern European standards.

 

[kudla]

Im surprised that Latvia has such a bad league

 

[WarriorofTime]

Im surprised that Latvia has such a bad league

Small country, best club is in the KHL

 

[Namejs]

Im surprised that Latvia has such a bad league

No market whatsoever, there is no spectator/club culture in Latvia in any team sport.

All pro teams in all sports are unprofitable, attendances are ridiculous, no TV market, etc. No money.

Which is why the ratio of players playing abroad is extremely high and, incidentally, is also the reason why international competitions attract such a huge audience in Latvia.

 

[Namejs]

I don't know how could you say it with such certainty when the WC team had Batna on it 2 years in a row whom most would consider to be a worse player.

I'm pretty sure I left out at least a few good players who should be there. It was just a quick blueprint of a roster to show the quality of our B team.

If you're erudite enough to know how good Batna is, you also know that I'm right.

 

[Dofs]

I don't know how could you say it with such certainty when the WC team had Batna on it 2 years in a row whom most would consider to be a worse player.

Biezais signed with a DEL3 team for ... some reason. Given that he played well in DEL2 who knows why he went to a league lower, but I think it's safe to say his career is not going towards making Team Latvia.

Batna was making the team due to his KHL experience but if he stays in France and doesn't move on from there somewhere up, he is also unlikely to be a frequent guest in the team any more, no matter how well he looked in the last WC. French league is simply too weak for Team Latvia nowadays.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Biezais signed with a DEL3 team for ... some reason. Given that he played well in DEL2 who knows why he went to a league lower, but I think it's safe to say his career is not going towards making Team Latvia.

Batna was making the team due to his KHL experience but if he stays in France and doesn't move on from there somewhere up, he is also unlikely to be a frequent guest in the team any more, no matter how well he looked in the last WC. French league is simply too weak for Team Latvia nowadays.

Batna was making the team due to his size which is something Hartley is borderline obsessed about. Agree about Biezais though, a weird decision on his part.

 

[kabidjan18]

Well, now that Dzerins got signed to the IceHL who knows maybe Biezais will get a NT call up, knowing how embarrassing it'd be for Latvia to call up an IceHL player I assume Dzerins' NT career is over.

 

[Antiillafire]

Yikes, well it’s clear now why they take shots at Slovak players as well as overall attitude of Belarus team.

 

[Eye of Ra]

The Latvian B team would crush Poland. I know it, you know it and everyone with connected brain hemispheres and a basic grasp of international hockey knows it too.

The Latvian C team would still be a slightly better team than Poland.

you do realise that poland have won over belarus and kazaksthan? they are not as bad as you make it sound. yes latvia is better and should win 19 of 20 games against poland but latvia b and latvia c would not crush poland a