OKR
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If you actually belive that Liiga is better league now that it was at start of last decade i don’t know what to tell you, you’re probably only one who thinks that.
F Joakim Kemell - Milwaukee Admirals, AHL (2022, 17th, NSH)
- Thread starter Erikfromfin
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Complete nonsense. Defence was as much important 10 years ago than it's today and one could do some things in d-zone that are not allowed today. And you think defense gets better when players are younger and overall lesser skilled?
Dirtyf1ghter
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Don't vouch for what the rest of the world thinks.
10 years ago, the production of local talent was much lower than it is now. It seems rather indisputable to me. The generation of Finnish players born in the 80s was much weaker than the previous one and even more so than the next.
As for the foreign players, they were no better than those of today. I would be very curious if you would list me the names of these foreign players (except those who only played during the lockout) whose departure would have weakened the championship.
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Antiillafire
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He’s looked so good, hope to see him on Finland’s roster at WJC. Perhaps NHL scouts should say that Servac Petrovsky is a top 3 rounds player for how he was able to shut down Kemell in 5v5 play at the HGC semi finals. As I said before, Joakim has one of the best shot releases in the draft.
It was already proved that there wasn’t that big difference with the amount of young players in 2012-2013 and 2021-2022. In fact there was 17 year old’s or even younger players even more in 2012-2013. Not a meaningful difference anyway. The tendency of Liiga getting younger had started already over ten years ago, so that thing hasn’t changed as much as some people nowadays want to believe. Anyway a fact is that the scoring title is won usually with lesser points than it was won over ten years ago. It isn’t an easy league to score points in. It wasn’t easy for even NHL players to score a lot of points in Liiga during the last lockout, and it wouldn’t be easy for them even now.
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He is an absolute lock for the WJC. No need to wonder if he will play there, unless any major injuries happen.
Sure, I think about 50 players would fit the top five if we would use just one game or even just a few games for ranking prospects. And anyway Slovakia has a really good U20 team. A medal candidate in the WJC definitely.
OKR
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There are too many poor teams now, Finnish clubs can’t afford to keep the best players etc. the quality of league has gone down clearly ever since Jokerit left and was downhill even before.
The sheer amount of players who are absolutely top of the crop in Liiga and then flop in Europe’s other leagues and return back to dominating Liiga tells you that loud and clear, just look at these players from last season who were at the top of the Liiga scoring:
Wennström SHL: 0,34 Liiga: 0,79 KHL: 0,1
Robin Press SHL: 0,25 Liiga: 0,80 KHL: 0,33
Nicolai Meyer SHL: 0,33 Liiga: 0,80
Robert Rooba Liiga: 0,70 KHL: 0,20
Ahti Oksanen: Liiga: 0,90 Czech Extra: 0,36
Cody Kunyk: Liiga: 0,80 KHL: 0,33
If you absolutely dominate Liiga and fail to be even 0,5ppg in Czech extraligue tells you that the Liiga isn’t a top league.
It’s like the sixth best league in the world at best.
Did you look at players who dominated other leagues and flopped in Liiga, or who were mediocre in Liiga and exploded elsewhere? You need to look at it from both perspectives.
OKR
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Yes, and that’s why the list includes what they had before Liiga and after it, not many noticeable players who flopped in Liiga, it’s understandable since Liiga is not a top league in any sense anymore.
Keep in mind that 34 year old 5’7 Ryan Lasch was way too good for this league.
Dirtyf1ghter
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Jokerit is only made up of common Finnish players and foreign players who would never have played in Liiga neither today nor 10 years ago. Schroeder, O'Neill, Holm did not play in Liiga in 2014. They come from AHL like most of the players who make up this team.
I brought up the fact that KHL, AHL and SHL were better leagues. Your argument only shows that. This was already the case 10 years ago.
Do you consider the Czech championship better than the Finnish championship ? The Czech national pool is much smaller than the Finnish pool. There are hardly any foreigners. It is the Czech and Slovak players who will play in Finland and not the other way around.
Anyway, between Barkov and Kemell and since what would correspond to the collapse of the Finnish league according to you, there have been several top Finnish prospects who have played in Liiga very recently.
Laine, Kakko, Lundell or Puljujarvi at 21 years old. Kemell started on a higher point production basis than them at the same age. What Kemell is doing now is exceptional. A performance that looks like a No. 2 draft player. The reason is not the weakness of the Finnish championship. At the same moment, Slafkovsky and Lambert, two top prospects fail to produce.
Liiga have never been too strong for U18 players in the past. Mikael Granlund was already producing a lot in Liiga at 17. It was in 2009.
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But opposite examples exist as well, say Tps’s Evan Weinger. Does not sound like objective analysis.
No, I meant you can't just look at players who fit your thought process. Just in your list there you have two players who had played in SHL and KHL as well, one's production in KHL was 1/3 of their production in SHL, the other's production in KHL was 1.5x of their production in SHL. Clearly there can be a ton of variance. At the very least you need to look at a sufficiently large random sample from all the incoming and outgoing players to see whether there is a trend, not just pick a handful of players that fit what you thought the effect was going to be.
BusQuets
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Laine 16+17 in 46 games in Liiga. 36+28 in NHL. Liiga confirmed better than NHL.
Using few players as an example of league's level is some double digit iq stuff. Especially trying to use it to discredit what draft eligible is doing.
Liiga is one of the hardest league's in the World to score, especially as a kid. Laine only scoring 16 goals with elite NHL level shot is testament for that. That's why you get drafted in top-5 if you can produce there.
Using few players as an example of league's level is some double digit iq stuff. Especially trying to use it to discredit what draft eligible is doing.
Liiga is one of the hardest league's in the World to score, especially as a kid. Laine only scoring 16 goals with elite NHL level shot is testament for that. That's why you get drafted in top-5 if you can produce there.
How was Lasch too good for Liiga? He was sure good there and won two times the scoring championship, but he has done exactly the same twice in the SHL and was once 2nd and once 3rd. And even this season as an over 34 year old he is dominating the SHL and is only 1 point behind the scoring leader.
Also with the same kind of cherry picking that you have been doing, Ty Rattie had last season barely over 0,5 PPG in Liiga and now he is this season a PPG player in SHL.
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That logic is too simplistic. We all know that you can't make linear extrapolations like that and I'm sure an eager person could find statistics showing the opposite.
It is true that the best players get better paid elsewhere that has resulted in an exodus of good players from liiga, but it is also true that Finland produces more good and great players now than ever before relative to other countries. Many of these players play in liiga for one, or more seasons.
AppalachianFinn13
Nope.
Savoie also has great skating, IQ and drive.
Not saying that Kemell isn't a rising prospect but for some reason a lot of people are down on Savoie and they probably haven't watched him play very often.
IMO they are entirely different types of prospects as Kemell projects as a sniper and Savoie isn't going to be a sniper but a very different type of player.
karhukissa
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You have some point there but c'mon dude. You can't say with straight face that Ahti Oksanen dominated
Or Rooba.Top Liiga teams are better quite comfortably than Czech League or DEL best teams, but overall Liiga level has gone down a LOT, no denying that. It's developement league nowadays and lower tier Liiga teams should be Mestis level.
Kemell was asked who he models his game after and he said Ovechkin. I kinda agree, of course he is smaller but otherwise he is similar, shoots a lot and likes to be physical.
OKR
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Ahti Oksanen finished the season 4th in points, 0,90ppg, most SOG in the league and made his international debut, while playing for a team that finished 9th in the league, Rooba had the 2nd most goals in the Liiga, so if they didn’t dominate they sure were close.You have some point there but c'mon dude. You can't say with straight face that Ahti Oksanen dominated
Top Liiga teams are better quite comfortably than Czech League or DEL best teams, but overall Liiga level has gone down a LOT, no denying that. It's developement league nowadays and lower tier Liiga teams should be Mestis level.
Also have to disagree, don’t think the best Liiga teams are any better than the best DEL or Czech league teams, they’re about the same with not much difference.
1OApick
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He is more likely to get to olympics than being left out of WJC
1OApick
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Kemell reminds me actually from Ovechkin. He is better comparable to Ovi than Laine. Kemell and Ovi are both high volume shooters unlike Laine who is more cerebral and not run and gun style winger. Kemell is smaller than Ovi but he is built like Tarasenko his balance is pretty special. Smaller Ovechkin is the best comparison for him.
