F James Hagens - Boston College, NCAA (2025 Draft)

Svedu

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I still hope the Flyers can draft this guy. I think he and next years McKenna are special. Even if I believe McKenna will become better than Bedard and Hagens I do see Hagens having the potential to become even better than say Bedard. Not as a pure scorer but as a driver and magician. What a entertaining playmaker he can become.

Though I have to say I expected even more from him in this years WJC. He was good. But he should be able to completely dominate at this level.
 

Svedu

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I personally hate the idea of drafting for position that high in the draft.

If they think Schaefer is the BPA, they should take him. Otherwise, they should take BPA. It's going to be a few years before they really know what they have with their prospects both up front and defensively. If they find later on that they have a gap on D, you can always flip some of that talented offensive group for help on the backend.

They have a decent stable of 23U D in the system with NHL upside, many of them more offensive minded.
  • Dickinson
  • Thrun
  • Thompson
  • Mukhamadullin
  • Pohlkamp
  • Havelid
  • Wallenius
  • Cagnoni
  • Landen
I think they're better off drafting BPA and then waiting to see if any of these guys. They've also got some decent guys in their mid 20s (Walman 28, Ferraro 26, Liljegren 25), they could choose to extend a couple of them to keep around as vets as the young guys come in.

Agreed.

Personally I think selecting anyone before Hagens is insanity. Question is if he becomes elite or top6. But the thing is I feel like the upside is high and him also being a low risk because of his arsenal. The guy can create on his own. Exceptional agility, stickhandling and playmaking- IQ. He doesn't live on his physicality and I actually think that is a good thing. Regarding that "Bust or make it" aspect. Because his strengths will always be more difficult to learn or develop imo. The physicality comes easier with age.
A bit like a Jack Hughes kind of prospect. They have their differences but it's either a homerun or a very good pick.
Schaefer does not give me the same secure feeling.
 
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Zarzh

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I personally hate the idea of drafting for position that high in the draft.

If they think Schaefer is the BPA, they should take him. Otherwise, they should take BPA. It's going to be a few years before they really know what they have with their prospects both up front and defensively. If they find later on that they have a gap on D, you can always flip some of that talented offensive group for help on the backend.

They have a decent stable of 23U D in the system with NHL upside, many of them more offensive minded.
  • Dickinson
  • Thrun
  • Thompson
  • Mukhamadullin
  • Pohlkamp
  • Havelid
  • Wallenius
  • Cagnoni
  • Landen
I think they're better off drafting BPA and then waiting to see if any of these guys. They've also got some decent guys in their mid 20s (Walman 28, Ferraro 26, Liljegren 25), they could choose to extend a couple of them to keep around as vets as the young guys come in.
Going BPA is typically as bad if not slightly worse than just deciding to draft a big center or big defenseman. There hasn't been any remotely even trade of young pieces in ages, the team filling a need always pays a premium so it's a terrible strategy.

Morehouse has even spoken on this, saying that smart scouting staffs will take team and system needs into account when determining "BPA". San Jose is far less likely to take Hagens, and Chicago is less likely to take Schaefer.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Going BPA is typically as bad if not slightly worse than just deciding to draft a big center or big defenseman. There hasn't been any remotely even trade of young pieces in ages, the team filling a need always pays a premium so it's a terrible strategy.
You don't think there would be teams with the need for an elite offensive prospect, who have a surplus of young defensive prospects?
Morehouse has even spoken on this, saying that smart scouting staffs will take team and system needs into account when determining "BPA". San Jose is far less likely to take Hagens, and Chicago is less likely to take Schaefer.
Okay. I think it makes a lot of sense to do this with later picks, but not so high in the draft. If you truly believe Hagens is the best prospect in the draft, you should take him. If it's a wash, take who you need more.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Going BPA is typically as bad if not slightly worse than just deciding to draft a big center or big defenseman. There hasn't been any remotely even trade of young pieces in ages, the team filling a need always pays a premium so it's a terrible strategy.

Morehouse has even spoken on this, saying that smart scouting staffs will take team and system needs into account when determining "BPA". San Jose is far less likely to take Hagens, and Chicago is less likely to take Schaefer.
Completely disagree with this strategy, if we’re talking about the very top of an NHL draft.

It might hold true with a mid first or somewhere later, but you only get so many chances as a team to acquire the true best talents, whether from the draft or from the players already in the league. These are typically the most important parts towards whether you build a Cup contender or not.

You don’t let lesser value assets dictate which top value assets you acquire. The value of the top assets is high enough that even if you have an inefficiency in the market for the lesser assets you don’t let that dictate the top value asset decisions because the gap between value is high enough that what you gain with the top value asset more than makes up for what you lose with a market inefficiency of a lesser asset.
 

WarriorofTime

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Whatever anyone thought of Hagens before the tournament they'll likely think after the tournament.

Proponents will point out he more than held his own as the top center on the championship winning team, that his production was very good with 9 points in 7 games and that it's impressive and ranks well amongst draft-eligible players from years prior.

The "skeptics" will point out that he was slightly outscored by his own linemates, that he had a disproportionate number of points against the bad teams and was just 1 point in 4 games against Canada, Czechia and Finand x2, and they'll continue to fixate heavily on the late birthday aspect and that "it's his 18 year old season, not his 17 year old season, which is really important for purposes of what year you played with in Atom.

So I would say he more or less held his same perception as he did before the tournament, which is of course overall a positive for a player considered towards the tippy top of the class.
 

GeeoffBrown

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Going BPA is typically as bad if not slightly worse than just deciding to draft a big center or big defenseman. There hasn't been any remotely even trade of young pieces in ages, the team filling a need always pays a premium so it's a terrible strategy.

Morehouse has even spoken on this, saying that smart scouting staffs will take team and system needs into account when determining "BPA". San Jose is far less likely to take Hagens, and Chicago is less likely to take Schaefer.
Well, you can always move a centre to the wing. If you look at the Sharks, they have some great centre prospects but their overall forward core is still rough. Looks like they are 25th in GF.

Seems to me, that most teams drafting this high, would have many holes throughout the lineup
 
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ConnorMcMullet

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Agreed.

Personally I think selecting anyone before Hagens is insanity. Question is if he becomes elite or top6. But the thing is I feel like the upside is high and him also being a low risk because of his arsenal. The guy can create on his own. Exceptional agility, stickhandling and playmaking- IQ. He doesn't live on his physicality and I actually think that is a good thing. Regarding that "Bust or make it" aspect. Because his strengths will always be more difficult to learn or develop imo. The physicality comes easier with age.
A bit like a Jack Hughes kind of prospect. They have their differences but it's either a homerun or a very good pick.
Schaefer does not give me the same secure feeling.

What about Schaefer does not give you that same secure feeling? I have him over Hagens for that reason exactly, even if it doesn’t end up being a home run it’s hard to imagine him not becoming a highly valuable #2/3D at worst.

FWIW, Bob McKenzie said yesterday that he believes Schaefer has surpassed Hagens.
 

coooldude

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Completely disagree with this strategy, if we’re talking about the very top of an NHL draft.

It might hold true with a mid first or somewhere later, but you only get so many chances as a team to acquire the true best talents, whether from the draft or from the players already in the league. These are typically the most important parts towards whether you build a Cup contender or not.

You don’t let lesser value assets dictate which top value assets you acquire. The value of the top assets is high enough that even if you have an inefficiency in the market for the lesser assets you don’t let that dictate the top value asset decisions because the gap between value is high enough that what you gain with the top value asset more than makes up for what you lose with a market inefficiency of a lesser asset.
You always take your team's needs into account. It just so happens that at the very top of the draft, there are usually 1 or 2 players that have so clearly separated themselves that it's obvious when someone drafts for need over talent and often a mistake when they do. However in this year it may be different.

In any player case, "BPA" is dumb, debunked by the experts, etc etc.
1. There is not one measurement of "Best." There is a distribution of potential outcomes between floor and ceiling. Some distributions are wider, some are narrower, some are top or bottom heavy, some might be bimodal (either elite or bust). Teams have to take risk profile into account. You're using the language of market efficiency - then in that case, using a market analogy, you don't just "buy the stock with the highest return in the last 5 years", because you have to take its risk profile into account.
2. You have to consider your team's profile in the case that this top pick hits/busts. Considering IF the Sharks see Hagens/Schaefer as comparable top-end talents with comparable risk profiles, if Hagens hits, OK -- you now have two great centers, 1C Celebrini 2C Hagens, and then you either have a superfluous Smith or he moves to the wing, but now 4 of your top 6 forwards are under 6' (+Eklund). So are you really building a healthy top 6 that can win 4 playoff series? Maybe, yes, but maybe you're really really needing 2-4 power wingers who can slot in with those 4. You still have an incredibly weak D pipeline headlined by Dickinson, who has the tools of a top line D but is inconsistent and shows sometimes-poor hockey sense so maybe better to expect a mid-pair guy who plays high event hockey.

further #2 in contrast, if you draft Schaefer and he hits, Dickinson is a luxury and you're still depending on Smith to become a 2C, and you're still short power wingers unless some of your prospects really hit (Musty, Chernyshov), but you've improved more in your D pipe than you have left a gap in your F pipe. This kind of calculus is important for teambuilding -- top end prospects don't often move around and it's not that simple to balance your team. Just ask the Leafs or Oilers, who have spent years with subpar D or holes in the lineup while being overpowered in other areas, yet unable to easily "balance it out" through trade etc.

What about Schaefer does not give you that same secure feeling? I have him over Hagens for that reason exactly, even if it doesn’t end up being a home run it’s hard to imagine him not becoming a highly valuable #2/3D at worst.

FWIW, Bob McKenzie said yesterday that he believes Schaefer has surpassed Hagens.
And many pro scouts and execs seem to think Schaefer is #1 even post injury, per EP's polling of 10 scouts/execs, and even if it's close.

So Schaefer may be Sharks' BPA anyway, but even if he's even with Hagens, he's probably a better fit. However, who knows, and it's all moot until after the lottery anyway.
 
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Zarzh

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Completely disagree with this strategy, if we’re talking about the very top of an NHL draft.

It might hold true with a mid first or somewhere later, but you only get so many chances as a team to acquire the true best talents, whether from the draft or from the players already in the league. These are typically the most important parts towards whether you build a Cup contender or not.

You don’t let lesser value assets dictate which top value assets you acquire. The value of the top assets is high enough that even if you have an inefficiency in the market for the lesser assets you don’t let that dictate the top value asset decisions because the gap between value is high enough that what you gain with the top value asset more than makes up for what you lose with a market inefficiency of a lesser asset.
Hagens is unlikely to be a unique or special player, while Schaefer or even Martone have that potential even without reaching their ceilings. Hagens needs to reach a higher rung of his potential to be more valuable than Schaefer or Martone which should be weighed into evaluation.

You don't because your assets depreciate rather quickly if you don't take action. Whether buying or selling from a disadvantageous situation you will lose a great deal of value.
Well, you can always move a centre to the wing. If you look at the Sharks, they have some great centre prospects but their overall forward core is still rough. Looks like they are 25th in GF.

Seems to me, that most teams drafting this high, would have many holes throughout the lineup
But in that case there is still more of a need for Martone.
You don't think there would be teams with the need for an elite offensive prospect, who have a surplus of young defensive prospects?

Okay. I think it makes a lot of sense to do this with later picks, but not so high in the draft. If you truly believe Hagens is the best prospect in the draft, you should take him. If it's a wash, take who you need more.
It's very rare for that to happen and much more common for one team to pay a premium.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Hagens is unlikely to be a unique or special player, while Schaefer or even Martone have that potential even without reaching their ceilings. Hagens needs to reach a higher rung of his potential to be more valuable than Schaefer or Martone which should be weighed into evaluation.

You don't because your assets depreciate rather quickly if you don't take action. Whether buying or selling from a disadvantageous situation you will lose a great deal of value.
You didn’t really address anything I said.

I’m talking about this philosophically. Don’t need to attach names to this.

We all have different opinions on who has what value and potential.

I’ve attached an example that proves what I mean. This is a graph from Dom L of the Athletic’s season preview of the Oilers.

IMG_0956.jpeg
Notice the scale of value with McDavid compared to everyone else. The gap between him and Draisaitl is basically measured as the gap between Draisaitl and a player that is slightly worse than Skinner.

I’ll give another example. Here is my New York Rangers season preview from Dom.


IMG_0957.jpeg
As you can see, the gap between Adam Fox and the Rangers next best defensemen is literally measured at two times the gap between their second best and their worst.

And I get not everyone will value analytics. Not saying Dom’s model is infallible or something. The point is just that people don’t realize how much more the best players matter for a team than the worst players. They have so much more of an impact towards results than everyone else that the “we won’t get value on the market for our second line forward or second pair defenseman” is really a fruitless argument when you are shooting for selecting a future star of the league.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Hagens is unlikely to be a unique or special player, while Schaefer or even Martone have that potential even without reaching their ceilings. Hagens needs to reach a higher rung of his potential to be more valuable than Schaefer or Martone which should be weighed into evaluation.
Well, that's fine, but that's your subjective opinion that he's not the BPA.
You don't because your assets depreciate rather quickly if you don't take action. Whether buying or selling from a disadvantageous situation you will lose a great deal of value.
Why would an asset that is having success depreciate?

If Celebrini, Smith, and Hagens are all PPG+ centers/forwards in 3 years, there will be plenty of demand from teams willing to offer up blue chip assets in exchange.
It's very rare for that to happen and much more common for one team to pay a premium.
When has a team ever been penalized for taking BPA high in the draft? Because I can think of multiple instances where teams picked for position and it ended up costing them.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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You always take your team's needs into account. It just so happens that at the very top of the draft, there are usually 1 or 2 players that have so clearly separated themselves that it's obvious when someone drafts for need over talent and often a mistake when they do. However in this year it may be different.

In any player case, "BPA" is dumb, debunked by the experts, etc etc.
1. There is not one measurement of "Best." There is a distribution of potential outcomes between floor and ceiling. Some distributions are wider, some are narrower, some are top or bottom heavy, some might be bimodal (either elite or bust). Teams have to take risk profile into account. You're using the language of market efficiency - then in that case, using a market analogy, you don't just "buy the stock with the highest return in the last 5 years", because you have to take its risk profile into account.
2. You have to consider your team's profile in the case that this top pick hits/busts. Considering IF the Sharks see Hagens/Schaefer as comparable top-end talents with comparable risk profiles, if Hagens hits, OK -- you now have two great centers, 1C Celebrini 2C Hagens, and then you either have a superfluous Smith or he moves to the wing, but now 4 of your top 6 forwards are under 6' (+Eklund). So are you really building a healthy top 6 that can win 4 playoff series? Maybe, yes, but maybe you're really really needing 2-4 power wingers who can slot in with those 4. You still have an incredibly weak D pipeline headlined by Dickinson, who has the tools of a top line D but is inconsistent and shows sometimes-poor hockey sense so maybe better to expect a mid-pair guy who plays high event hockey.

further #2 in contrast, if you draft Schaefer and he hits, Dickinson is a luxury and you're still depending on Smith to become a 2C, and you're still short power wingers unless some of your prospects really hit (Musty, Chernyshov), but you've improved more in your D pipe than you have left a gap in your F pipe. This kind of calculus is important for teambuilding -- top end prospects don't often move around and it's not that simple to balance your team. Just ask the Leafs or Oilers, who have spent years with subpar D or holes in the lineup while being overpowered in other areas, yet unable to easily "balance it out" through trade etc.
You make some fair points. I don’t even think we disagree on some of these things.

I wasn’t trying to make this into a player vs. player, I was meaning this more from a philosophical standpoint.

But yes, if you’re the Oilers and you can trade for MacKinnon or Makar, it’s obvious that it may just turn into true overkill to trade for MacKinnon. At a certain point, you are not getting a return on the ability of the player when you have too much of the same thing.

Generally though, a team drafting 1OA is bad. They have many needs. They are not close to contending. They might have 2-3 players on their NHL roster of true high level NHL value. The rest are going to be prospects or players who are pretty interchangeable and relatively easy to acquire. Their roster might look very different in a few years. There might be a new coach and GM in a few years too.

We are not talking about an uber-specific targeted add for a team that is fully built and needs one more very specific piece to be the final piece of the puzzle. That’s why I say when you’re talking about 1OA that you just take whoever you think is the best player. If it’s truly a coin flip, I guess other factors come into play. Contract status, personality, position relative to what your team already has, injury history, etc.

I am not saying all that matters is potential and current ability. I am however saying that BPA should be the formula with the first pick. Picking for need when you believe there’s a better player on the draft board gives you this contrast.

First overall picks


IMG_0959.jpeg

Compared to second overall picks


IMG_0960.jpeg

Yes, there are years when you draft a Hedman compared to a Tavares or Seguin compared to Hall, but on average the data tends to show that there’s a real gap between the success of a 1OA and 2OA, so picking whoever you think is the best player is going to probably make a big difference when all is said and done.
 
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Zarzh

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Well, that's fine, but that's your subjective opinion that he's not the BPA.

Why would an asset that is having success depreciate?

If Celebrini, Smith, and Hagens are all PPG+ centers/forwards in 3 years, there will be plenty of demand from teams willing to offer up blue chip assets in exchange.

When has a team ever been penalized for taking BPA high in the draft? Because I can think of multiple instances where teams picked for position and it ended up costing them.
Off the top of my head with taking the higher ranked player over the choice of scouts, Buffalo took Nylander over McAvoy, Edmonton taking Poolparty over Sergachev/Tkachuk, Detroit taking Zadina over Hughes, Philadelphia taking Patrick over Makar, Edmonton taking Yakupov over Murray. Most of them are worse than the bad outcomes for a team wanting to pick a big center.

Just about any defenseman offered would be like a bad outcome for Schaefer.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Off the top of my head with taking the higher ranked player over the choice of scouts, Buffalo took Nylander over McAvoy, Edmonton taking Poolparty over Sergachev/Tkachuk, Detroit taking Zadina over Hughes, Philadelphia taking Patrick over Makar, Edmonton taking Yakupov over Murray. Most of them are worse than the bad outcomes for a team wanting to pick a big center.
I'm not saying "the higher ranked player", I am saying the best player available as judged by the team.

If a team thinks Hagens is the best player available by a non-trivial margin, they shouldn't take Schaefer just because it fills a positional need.

Just about any defenseman offered would be like a bad outcome for Schaefer.
I don't think you understand the reality of the risk associated with drafting 17 year old defenseman. The history of dmen drafted in the top 5 isn't great. Lots of misses.

I think he's gonna be a stud, but he could also struggle, and end up as just a top 4 dman. His skating ability is obviously a huge asset, and he's a well rounded defender in junior, but there's still a lot of uncertainty there.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

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Off the top of my head with taking the higher ranked player over the choice of scouts, Buffalo took Nylander over McAvoy, Edmonton taking Poolparty over Sergachev/Tkachuk, Detroit taking Zadina over Hughes, Philadelphia taking Patrick over Makar, Edmonton taking Yakupov over Murray. Most of them are worse than the bad outcomes for a team wanting to pick a big center.

Just about any defenseman offered would be like a bad outcome for Schaefer.
I'm not sure you're really putting forth a strong argument. A few isolated examples isn't exactly strong proof. To begin with, you can find a lot more examples in the opposite direction.

The way value works in the NHL you are messing around by not taking whoever you think is the best player with the first pick of the draft. I get it's boring and takes patience, but it's the smart way to build a hockey team. I'll leave it at that.
 

Zarzh

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I'm not saying "the higher ranked player", I am saying the best player available as judged by the team.

If a team thinks Hagens is the best player available by a non-trivial margin, they shouldn't take Schaefer just because it fills a positional need.


I don't think you understand the reality of the risk associated with drafting 17 year old defenseman. The history of dmen drafted in the top 5 isn't great. Lots of misses.

I think he's gonna be a stud, but he could also struggle, and end up as just a top 4 dman. His skating ability is obviously a huge asset, and he's a well rounded defender in junior, but there's still a lot of uncertainty there.
Well you may as well look at every lottery bust in that case because that's far more subjective criteria than deciding to pick the higher ranked player because they were higher ranked.

There's really not that many misses outside of long-term injuries and/or guys who didn't score much to begin with.

Hagens has far more risk than Schaefer in that regard, Schaefer as a top 4 defenseman is still valuable but if Hagens is defensively limited at the next level it severely impacts his value.
I'm not sure you're really putting forth a strong argument. A few isolated examples isn't exactly strong proof. To begin with, you can find a lot more examples in the opposite direction.

The way value works in the NHL you are messing around by not taking whoever you think is the best player with the first pick of the draft. I get it's boring and takes patience, but it's the smart way to build a hockey team. I'll leave it at that.
Like Shane Wright? Most teams will go for something they can't acquire naturally. If teams don't think Hagens can lead them past the other centers of his era, plenty will look to pass on him.

I dislike the use of Dom's model because some things are true at extremes which aren't true at other breakpoints.

You truly can't, unless you're conflating weighted scouting with only picking one position.
 

coooldude

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I'm not sure you're really putting forth a strong argument. A few isolated examples isn't exactly strong proof. To begin with, you can find a lot more examples in the opposite direction.

The way value works in the NHL you are messing around by not taking whoever you think is the best player with the first pick of the draft. I get it's boring and takes patience, but it's the smart way to build a hockey team. I'll leave it at that.
Honestly, since this is a discussion currently between Sharks fans, the Sharks fans are kind of hoping that we pick 2nd or 3rd and Schaefer falls to us. To your point, picking this high is NOT good. It means your team sucks. Our team sucks. Our pipeline is strong but still thin for how bad we are.

Not having to make the gut-wrenching call to pick Schaefer over Hagens, and having Schaefer fall to our laps, "feels" better. Of course objectively you'd rather have 1OA and pick your favorite, but the odds for any given team are <25% of that happening so... maybe better to hope that your fave falls to you wherever you land.

Given Schaefer is hurt but seemingly has a very high ceiling and his injury is not at all concerning long-term, and Hagens is "holding serve" as a 1OA candidate but not absolutely blowing people away, I suspect that the 1OA debate will continue between them thru June, and that Misa/Martone is the new debate at 3, with potential for other names to creep in and possibly challenge Martone in the top 4.
 

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Well you may as well look at every lottery bust in that case because that's far more subjective criteria than deciding to pick the higher ranked player because they were higher ranked.

There's really not that many misses outside of long-term injuries and/or guys who didn't score much to begin with.

Hagens has far more risk than Schaefer in that regard, Schaefer as a top 4 defenseman is still valuable but if Hagens is defensively limited at the next level it severely impacts his value.
You could say the exact same thing about Schaefer.
 

Zarzh

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You could say the exact same thing about Schaefer.
Except Schaefer is 4 inches taller and about 10 months younger, he projects to be able to do it pretty easily. Hagens is tiny and already struggling with size and skill at lower levels but some people project him as an elite defensive forward with some physical development (which is a much greater ask).
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Except Schaefer is 4 inches taller and about 10 months younger, he projects to be able to do it pretty easily. Hagens is tiny and already struggling with size and skill at lower levels but some people project him as an elite defensive forward with some physical development (which is a much greater ask).
Dougie Hamilton is 6'5, doesn't mean he's a good defender.
 

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