F Igor Chernyshov - MHK Dynamo Moscow, MHL (2024, 33rd, SJS)

[Kcoyote3]

It looks like the kid is as smart as a 30 year old washing machine...

No please, don’t ellipsis, tell us how you really feel.

 

[coooldude]

IDGAF about this whole "Russians who go to NA bust out" stuff. We got a 15-25 pick at 33 and there's big upside. Will be exciting to see him in the CHL. If he busts, he was gonna bust, not the Sharks' fault. Bad results != bad process.

 

[Kshahdoo]

IDGAF about this whole "Russians who go to NA bust out" stuff. We got a 15-25 pick at 33 and there's big upside. Will be exciting to see him in the CHL. If he busts, he was gonna bust, not the Sharks' fault. Bad results != bad process.

It's not about to bust or not to bust, it's about chosing CHL money over KHL's. I assure you, the difference is pretty big.

 

[coooldude]

It's not about to bust or not to bust, it's about chosing CHL money over KHL's. I assure you, the difference is pretty big.

This is irrelevant to me. All I care about is whether the Sharks get better. A player's ability to choose the money maximizing move - don't care at all. Wish him the best personally.

 

[CanadienShark]

His KHL contract has been officially terminated.

Hmmm... I wonder if this means AHL for him. I'm good with this, but was also fine with KHL.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

It's not about to bust or not to bust, it's about chosing CHL money over KHL's. I assure you, the difference is pretty big.

I guarantee you every Sharks fan doesn't give a single crap about how much money the guy makes. We just want him to develop.

If he gets more opportunity in the CHL, and gets to see some of the Sharks staff more often, being closer, then sure why not.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Hmmm... I wonder if this means AHL for him. I'm good with this, but was also fine with KHL.

That’s what I’m thinking Ahl bound

 

[Hodge]

It's not about to bust or not to bust, it's about chosing CHL money over KHL's. I assure you, the difference is pretty big.

What is "CHL money"? He's going to sign a NHL entry-level contract which will guarantee him ~$100k USD next season between the signing bonus and junior stipend. How much more would he make in the KHL?

 

[Kshahdoo]

What is "CHL money"? He's going to sign a NHL entry-level contract which will guarantee him ~$100k USD next season between the signing bonus and junior stipend. How much more would he make in the KHL?

Probably 3 times (at least) more tax free...

 

[wetcoast]

The CHL is fantastic, but only up to a point. Most Canadians will probably tell you one of their biggest development hurdles is that U20 players can't play in the AHL. Higher level players are stuck in the CHL playing well below their talent level against a lot of future accountants and truck drivers. This is especially true if one is accustomed to playing/practicing against professional men.

It's the equivalent of Chernyshov playing upper-level MHL teams this entire upcoming year. What's the point?
So yeah, playing against kids in some small midwest city? Or against men with Slava Kozlov coaching you....
No one ever said Chernyshov was a genius..

He got drafted by Saginaw so he would be playing with Misa and Parekh and it's not the worst thing in the world in regards to icetime and getting used to the NA game.
,

 

[Juxtaposer]

Probably 3 times (at least) more tax free...

If anything, shouldn’t we be praising a kid for prioritizing development instead of just trying to secure the bag ASAP? Pick a side, man.

 

[Kshahdoo]

If anything, shouldn’t we be praising a kid for prioritizing development instead of just trying to secure the bag ASAP? Pick a side, man.

Yeah, of all Russian first round picks of the 3 last NHL drafts Gridin is the only one who was picked from an NA league. It looks like Russian kids (most of them) perfectly know what is the best development way for them.

 

[GoBoltz56]

Probably 3 times (at least) more tax free...

An 18 year old who had 4 points last year would be making more than 300k?? I highly doubt that.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yeah, of all Russian first round picks of the 3 last NHL drafts Gridin is the only one who was picked from an NA league. It looks like Russian kids (most of them) perfectly know what is the best development way for them.

Last three drafts 1st round Russians:

2022-10th: Pavel Mintyukov, drafted out of Saginaw, Ontario.
2022-20th: Ivan Miroshnichenko, drafted out of VHL. 18 year old season split between VHL/MHL/KHL. Came to NA for his 19 year old season.
2022-24th: Danila Yurov, drafted out of KHL. Still in KHL as of D+2 season.

2023-6th: Dmitry Simashev, drafted out of MHL. 18 year old season in KHL.
2023-7th: Matvei Michkov, drafted out of KHL. Terminated KHL contract to come to NA after D+1.
2023-12th: Danil But, split D0 season between MHL/KHL, KHL in D+1.
2023-31st: Mikhail Gulyayev, split D0 season between VHL/MHL/KHL.

2024-5th: Ivan Demidov, spent draft season in MHL. Rumored to terminate contract if not given KHL minutes next year. Plans to come over at end of season either way.
2024-10th: Anton Silayev, draft season in KHL.
2024-22nd: Yegor Surin, draft season in MHL.
2024-28th: Matvei Gridin, draft season in USHL.

So sure, most of these guys have been drafted out of Russia. But what you are conveniently neglecting is that Russians haven’t been allowed to play in the CHL for the last three years. It’s not like they even had the option.

I just don’t get the angst over guys leaving Russia unless you are specifically fans of the teams they play for.

 

[MNRube]

One of my favorites from this class. Of course I’m going only off YouTube clips and scouting reports. I don’t blame the Sharks for (possibly) facilitating an early departure to NA, but I think one more year in the KHL would’ve been best for his development

 

[Kshahdoo]

Last three drafts 1st round Russians:

2022-10th: Pavel Mintyukov, drafted out of Saginaw, Ontario.
2022-20th: Ivan Miroshnichenko, drafted out of VHL. 18 year old season split between VHL/MHL/KHL. Came to NA for his 19 year old season.
2022-24th: Danila Yurov, drafted out of KHL. Still in KHL as of D+2 season.

2023-6th: Dmitry Simashev, drafted out of MHL. 18 year old season in KHL.
2023-7th: Matvei Michkov, drafted out of KHL. Terminated KHL contract to come to NA after D+1.
2023-12th: Danil But, split D0 season between MHL/KHL, KHL in D+1.
2023-31st: Mikhail Gulyayev, split D0 season between VHL/MHL/KHL.

2024-5th: Ivan Demidov, spent draft season in MHL. Rumored to terminate contract if not given KHL minutes next year. Plans to come over at end of season either way.
2024-10th: Anton Silayev, draft season in KHL.
2024-22nd: Yegor Surin, draft season in MHL.
2024-28th: Matvei Gridin, draft season in USHL.

So sure, most of these guys have been drafted out of Russia. But what you are conveniently neglecting is that Russians haven’t been allowed to play in the CHL for the last three years. It’s not like they even had the option.

I just don’t get the angst over guys leaving Russia unless you are specifically fans of the teams they play for.

Not for the last three years but since February, 2022. So most of them could have moved to NA junior leagues if they had wished, and they didn't. Of course there was the pandemy, but it's another topic.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

IDGAF about this whole "Russians who go to NA bust out" stuff. We got a 15-25 pick at 33 and there's big upside. Will be exciting to see him in the CHL. If he busts, he was gonna bust, not the Sharks' fault. Bad results != bad process.

You seem to totally misunderstand the narrative, so maybe you should take the time to inform yourself before you go spouting off about it.

 

[Kingpin794]

You seem to totally misunderstand the narrative, so maybe you should take the time to inform yourself

But the narrative is just a demonstration in people conflating correlation and causation.

Russian forward leaving to NA juniors? Count him out. He’ll turn into nothing. Wasted pick for the Sharks.

This is the narrative that always comes up is it not? So why are defenseman less effected by this development hindering bug? Do they not go through the same things? Go from playing against men to playing against "kids". Going from one culture to a completely different one? Like what IS the reason forwards have a rougher time in the CHL? Is this just a perceived struggle? Are Russian forwards overhyped perhaps? Like for decades Russia/Soviet Union was a place that cranked out high skill players, including forwards, like an assembly line. And if your team could get their hands on one it was like getting some of the forbidden fruit. You had this extra something now. Something that took extra work to get and gave extra dividends in the end. So this mystique about Russian players gets built up. Its hard to shake that over time. Even now, "the Russian factor" adds a layer of intrigue and mystery to players that makes them seem larger than life in some cases. I think, at least in NA and this may go for Russians as well, we still have this ingrained idea of what a Russian player is or what they are supposed to be. So in the last 15 years or so, they don't live up to those constructed ideals, we as humans try to explain it in some way. And some of us have just decided to correlate coming over to NA as the reason why. Its not a good reason. But I can certainly see how someone gets there.

 

[coooldude]

You seem to totally misunderstand the narrative, so maybe you should take the time to inform yourself before you go spouting off about it.

I've read the thread. No thanks. Mind your own business. High post counts don't mean anything to me either.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

But the narrative is just a demonstration in people conflating correlation and causation.


This is the narrative that always comes up is it not? So why are defenseman less effected by this development hindering bug? Do they not go through the same things? Go from playing against men to playing against "kids". Going from one culture to a completely different one? Like what IS the reason forwards have a rougher time in the CHL? Is this just a perceived struggle? Are Russian forwards overhyped perhaps? Like for decades Russia/Soviet Union was a place that cranked out high skill players, including forwards, like an assembly line. And if your team could get their hands on one it was like getting some of the forbidden fruit. You had this extra something now. Something that took extra work to get and gave extra dividends in the end. So this mystique about Russian players gets built up. Its hard to shake that over time. Even now, "the Russian factor" adds a layer of intrigue and mystery to players that makes them seem larger than life in some cases. I think, at least in NA and this may go for Russians as well, we still have this ingrained idea of what a Russian player is or what they are supposed to be. So in the last 15 years or so, they don't live up to those constructed ideals, we as humans try to explain it in some way. And some of us have just decided to correlate coming over to NA as the reason why. Its not a good reason. But I can certainly see how someone gets there.

I see you are trying to make this overly philosophical.

To me, I'll make it much simpler. This guy wasn't viewed as a first rounder. He clearly isn't good enough to be the exception.

Yet to engage your philosophical take, of course there are going to be exceptions to most trends. Yet, the trends are there for a reason. It's because there's something to them. It becomes a real uphill battle for these players to go against them (stupidly they think they will and almost all fail).

I get the "well, we can't prove what the reason is, so maybe it's more bogus than it sounds" instinct, but I think that's wishful thinking. Statistically, the numbers are very, very bad. I'll go with that. I'm not going to bet on anyone who isn't absolutely elite to break the trend.

As for my own opinion on what it may be, I think the way they teach forwards over in Russia is different from North America. It's more finesse hockey, more truly tiki-taka (to use a footballing term). It's an east to west game. A different mentality how they teach the game in North America. And let's face it, almost all these highly regarded Russian forwards over the years are skill guys. If they were gritty two-way centers, they might fit in with the concepts a little better they encounter in NA. Part of why I think it's different for defensemen. A defenseman, whether offensive in nature or not, has to play to certain minimum concepts of North-American type hockey to be in any way adequate at defending (you can't be dangling by two players in front of your own net, for instance).

If you change the methods these Russian forwards train with and give them the training of Mitch Marner or Patrick Kane, the same "individual skill" commonality probably isn't enough. Hockey isn't all about how purely skilled and smart you are. The training you put into the sport over the years makes a big difference. Marner or Kane might have the same gifts for the skill and smarts components, but they've learned that in an environment where they have to work that into a NA game that blends different style concepts. If you come from an environment where you didn't have to figure out how to mesh, it might be difficult later on to do so. As you get older, it becomes more difficult to learn habits. They become more engrained.

I tend to think there's also a curve to this. If you experience this in your formative years, you probably have an easier time just naturally adapting. When you are doing this at 16, 17, 18, 19, you think you literally know everything. These are the years that males think they are god. Earlier than that they aren't formed enough to have that attitude and later than that they tend to mature and even if they have difficult habits to break, they are generally more mature people and can manage these difficult habits a little more wisely.

None of this is to say that North American hockey doesn't have skill guys or skill to it, but the game is taught differently. It's very hard to experience all the shifts you mention and then also learn to fit into quite literal foreign concepts of how to play the game. The Russian forwards who have those hardened concepts and come over later seem to have more success. Majority of them never break those core concepts they learned. They are just literally more naturally gifted than those that bust and have wised up through aging to understand how to manage their differences with that of those that were taught in NA.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I've read the thread. No thanks. Mind your own business. High post counts don't mean anything to me either.

Mind my own business?

Your post was naive, and I'm allowed to say so.

If you want to put your fingers over your ears and ignore all logic, none of us can stop you, but that doesn't mean others can't opine on it if you are going to broadcast this logical insanity to all of us.

 

[Kingpin794]

I see you are trying to make this overly philosophical.

To me, I'll make it much simpler. This guy wasn't viewed as a first rounder. He clearly isn't good enough to be the exception.

Yet to engage your philosophical take, of course there are going to be exceptions to most trends. Yet, the trends are there for a reason. It's because there's something to them. It becomes a real uphill battle for these players to go against them (stupidly they think they will and almost all fail).

I get the "well, we can't prove what the reason is, so maybe it's more bogus than it sounds" instinct, but I think that's wishful thinking. Statistically, the numbers are very, very bad. I'll go with that. I'm not going to bet on anyone who isn't absolutely elite to break the trend.

As for my own opinion on what it may be, I think the way they teach forwards over in Russia is different from North America. It's more finesse hockey, more truly tiki-taka (to use a footballing term). It's an east to west game. A different mentality how they teach the game in North America. And let's face it, almost all these highly regarded Russian forwards over the years are skill guys. If they were gritty two-way centers, they might fit in with the concepts a little better they encounter in NA. Part of why I think it's different for defensemen. A defenseman, whether offensive in nature or not, has to play to certain minimum concepts of North-American type hockey to be in any way adequate at defending (you can't be dangling by two players in front of your own net, for instance).

If you change the methods these Russian forwards train with and give them the training of Mitch Marner or Patrick Kane, the same "individual skill" commonality probably isn't enough. Hockey isn't all about how purely skilled and smart you are. The training you put into the sport over the years makes a big difference. Marner or Kane might have the same gifts for the skill and smarts components, but they've learned that in an environment where they have to work that into a NA game that blends different style concepts. If you come from an environment where you didn't have to figure out how to mesh, it might be difficult later on to do so. As you get older, it becomes more difficult to learn habits. They become more engrained.

I tend to think there's also a curve to this. If you experience this in your formative years, you probably have an easier time just naturally adapting. When you are doing this at 16, 17, 18, 19, you think you literally know everything. These are the years that males think they are god. Earlier than that they aren't formed enough to have that attitude and later than that they tend to mature and even if they have difficult habits to break, they are generally more mature people and can manage these difficult habits a little more wisely.

None of this is to say that North American hockey doesn't have skill guys or skill to it, but the game is taught differently. It's very hard to experience all the shifts you mention and then also learn to fit into quite literal foreign concepts of how to play the game. The Russian forwards who have those hardened concepts and come over later seem to have more success. Majority of them never break those core concepts they learned. They are just literally more naturally gifted than those that bust and have wised up through aging to understand how to manage their differences with that of those that were taught in NA.

Ok that's more of a reasonable take than just "forward goes to NA will fail". I would probably lead with the idea that differences in training concepts are contributing to struggles instead of pointing to the small sample size of forwards that have come over and claiming it will continue because trends.

 

[Bizz]

IDGAF about this whole "Russians who go to NA bust out" stuff. We got a 15-25 pick at 33 and there's big upside. Will be exciting to see him in the CHL. If he busts, he was gonna bust, not the Sharks' fault. Bad results != bad process.

People don't understand that not every player is the same. Just because it's happened before doesn't mean the same is gonna play out for Chernyshov or anyone else that chooses to go the same route.

 

[Kshahdoo]

People don't understand that not every player is the same. Just because it's happened before doesn't mean the same is gonna play out for Chernyshov or anyone else that chooses to go the same route.

It's not just about that young kids go to NA to improve their chances to make the NHL but fail instead. It's about a funny thing: it's easier to make NHL from KHL than from CHL/AHL for Russian players. So what a point to leave KHL for NA leagues?

P.S. Two players of the same age and draft. One moved to NA at age 16, the other moved to NA at age 21. Check how many NHL games have they played. And I'm pretty sure Gushchin is more talented player than Marat... Oh and don't tell me it's harder to make Sharks than Wild because it's not.

Marat Khusnutdinov - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Marat Khusnutdinov, 2002-07-17 Moskva, RUS Russia. Most recently in the NHL with Minnesota Wild. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

Daniil Gushchin - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Daniil Gushchin, 2002-02-06 Yekaterinburg, RUS Russia. Most recently in the AHL with San Jose Barracuda. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[Juxtaposer]

It's not just about that young kids go to NA to improve their chances to make the NHL but fail instead. It's about a funny thing: it's easier to make NHL from KHL than from CHL/AHL for Russian players. So what a point to leave KHL for NA leagues?

P.S. Two players of the same age and draft. One moved to NA at age 16, the other moved to NA at age 21. Check how many NHL games have they played.

Marat Khusnutdinov - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Marat Khusnutdinov, 2002-07-17 Moskva, RUS Russia. Most recently in the NHL with Minnesota Wild. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

Daniil Gushchin - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Daniil Gushchin, 2002-02-06 Yekaterinburg, RUS Russia. Most recently in the AHL with San Jose Barracuda. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

Using two 5’9” players as examples.