F Daniil But - Lokomotiv Yaroslavl, KHL (2023, 12th, ARI)

[DatDude44]

I'm not talking about Muskegon, I'm talking about any Russians in USHL history. For the entire league who else can you name?

I don't know, i'd have to research russians that played in the USHL...but that still doesn't have anything to do with your outlandish implication that playing in the ushl is detrimental to their development. That claim has no basis and flat out doesn't make any sense....if the ushl is so bad for player development...then why does the frickin U.S. NTDP play in it? Why have their been over 50 players drafted into the nhl the last 4 years from the USHL?

 

[wings5]

I don't know, i'd have to research russians that played in the USHL...but that still doesn't have anything to do with your outlandish implication that playing in the ushl is detrimental to their development. That claim has no basis and flat out doesn't make any sense....if the ushl is so bad for player development...then why does the frickin U.S. NTDP play in it? Why have their been over 50 players drafted into the nhl the last 4 years from the USHL?

For Russian players there is a huge culture shock, and big transition to a different style of hockey when they haven't finished their original schooling in the Russian style . Americans don't have to deal with this culture shock, it's the same problems for Russians going to the CHL. There are many threads and posts about this and the statistics all back it up. @Atas2000 has also talked about this many times on here, at first I was a bit skeptical but the numbers don't lie.

 

[Atas2000]

For Russian players there is a huge culture shock, and big transition to a different style of hockey when they haven't finished their original schooling in the Russian style . Americans don't have to deal with this culture shock, it's the same problems for Russians going to the CHL. There are many threads and posts about this and the statistics all back it up. @Atas2000 has also talked about this many times on here, at first I was a bit skeptical but the numbers don't lie.

Particularily in But's case he falls into not that good category too. For guys like him it would be way more beneficial to stay put and work hard instead of seeking a new adventure. He wasn't any impressive on the U18 team. A middle of the pack guy which at this level means he has slim chances of becoming a pro at all.

Also what we are dealing with is usually a unhealthy tandem of dishonest agents who put their short-term profit ahead of the good of the client and rip off parents for bunches of money to catapult their kid overseas and delusional parents who when coaches tell them their kid is no future Ovechkin and has to work harder blame the coach and not their kid or mother nature for not giving them a prodigy for free. It is also a numbers game. Kids with parents who aren't like that tend to succeed more often than not I noticed after reading bunches of interviews with parents.

 

[Tenkkapoo]

LOL what an idiot.

 

[Kshahdoo]

They go and then they come. Like Abramov lately.

 

[Atas2000]

They go and then they come. Like Abramov lately.

You have to salute the perseverance with which North Americans(and some brainwashed Russians) year after year tried to convince us that Abramov is nearly, nearly there, he just needs another year, another month, another week and he will be a NHLer(to prove that the CHL/AHL path is working for Russians).

 

[Kshahdoo]

You have to salute the perseverance with which North Americans(and some brainwashed Russians) year after year tried to convince us that Abramov is nearly, nearly there, he just needs another year, another month, another week and he will be a NHLer(to prove that the CHL/AHL path is working for Russians).

Well, he played really well at Sochi Open though, was named MVP.

 

[wings5]

I thought he also showed good speed and stick-handling ability. He wasn't playing with the best line-mates, but was more noticeable than those players. He looked bigger than the listed height.

FHR website lists him as 194 cm ( roughly 6’4) and 87 kg ( around 191 lbs ) so it seems he is indeed much bigger than Eliteprospects has him listed at .

 

[BMann]

For Russian players there is a huge culture shock, and big transition to a different style of hockey when they haven't finished their original schooling in the Russian style . Americans don't have to deal with this culture shock, it's the same problems for Russians going to the CHL. There are many threads and posts about this and the statistics all back it up. @Atas2000 has also talked about this many times on here, at first I was a bit skeptical but the numbers don't lie.

This not only applies to Russian kids moving to North America but having watched a lot of South American football a similar path is taken by many promising South American kids when they come to Europe to play association football.

They arrive too early brought over by greedy agents or family members without being fully prepared mentally or physically or having learnt their position and style. Then they get shunted around, often play very little or out of position and their careers and potential are lost. A few struggle back but most are lost. It's part of the reason South American football has struggled to match Europe and also why Russian hockey has suffered.

Many talented forwards have lost their way in North America and ended up as busts or mediocrities when at one point they were seen as stars in the making. Not down to hyperbole but experienced coaches and former players watching on. It's a real shame. But has like many of these kids been poorly advised.

 

[Kshahdoo]

I’m not going to sit here and say I know what’s best for this particular kid or that coming to North America at such a young age is a great plan in general for Russian youngsters…

But Muskegon have a much better track record with this than most junior programs and I think it is hard to say they have “failed” their recent high profile Russian kids in any way. Part of that is the inherent quality of the players they’ve been able to recruit - in particular Svechnikov of course but Gushchin is a legit prospect who is probably top 5 in the Sharks system and already signed at 19 while Afanaseyev at 20 just had a very solid WJC with Russia and already has a KHL debut and is also signed and one of the better prospects in the Preds system.

I don’t think you can claim that stops at Muskegon have been anything but positive for these guys in terms of NHL goals. They’ve come, adjusted well and performed. The organization clearly has a comfort level with getting talented young Russians on solid footing in North America - which extends to off the ice as well - and it has by and large worked much better for them than the generalized debate on the topic, even if Muskegon is just a short pit stop to a quality CHL organization or NHL signing. It’s a little unfair to jump straight to the “oh young Russian coming to North America he’s ruined!!!” analogy in this case in my opinion - even if there is truth to it as a generality.

Man, Gushchin is nothing so far, and Svechnikov was just too talented to fail. I mean, Svech scored almost twice as many points as But at the same age in the pretty comparable league.

 

[wetcoast]

For Russian players there is a huge culture shock, and big transition to a different style of hockey when they haven't finished their original schooling in the Russian style . Americans don't have to deal with this culture shock, it's the same problems for Russians going to the CHL. There are many threads and posts about this and the statistics all back it up. @Atas2000 has also talked about this many times on here, at first I was a bit skeptical but the numbers don't lie.

The thing is that "most" prospects simply don't make it, so casting blame for nationalistic reasons like some do is simplistic at best.

The whole "every prospect should play where I want them to play according to my world view" notion is just a bias the numbers are what they always are most "prospects" never reach their top potential.

 

[wings5]

The thing is that "most" prospects simply don't make it, so casting blame for nationalistic reasons like some do is simplistic at best.

The whole "every prospect should play where I want them to play according to my world view" notion is just a bias the numbers are what they always are most "prospects" never reach their top potential.

Fair , many prospects don’t make it this is true . However , if for example you look at hundreds of Russians vs hundreds of Swedes vs hundreds of Finns coming to the CHL and the number of successful Russians is significantly lower than there is clearly a tougher adjustment. This is for sure the case as Russian culture differs from North American culture a lot more than someone from Sweden and many other countries .

 

[BKarchitect]

Something can be true as a generality but is still worth observing as an individual case. But may very well simply be a very physically developed prospect at a young age who doesn't develop into anything special - regardless of where he plays. I don't blame Russian fans for thinking aloud to themselves "whelp...based on past history, I give him now like a 50% less chance of developing well now that he's gone to North America". But I am suggesting that Muskegon as an individual hockey program that has experience and a setup that extends to beyond the ice to acclimatize young Russian players is deserving of a bit more than an automated robotic reply of "oh he's gone to North America he is ruined!!!!". Not all hockey programs, not all junior experiences are built the same.

Gushchin was also always going to face an uphill battle as a top tier prospect due to size. Muskegon didn't stunt his physical growth. As it is, he signed a nearly max rookie deal with an NHL team as a 19 year-old, one season after being drafted...I'd say the Sharks absolutely think he has upside. Whether or not he has a meaningful NHL career remains to be seen but that doesn't make him a failed prospect.

 

[wings5]

Something can be true as a generality but is still worth observing as an individual case. But may very well simply be a very physically developed prospect at a young age who doesn't develop into anything special - regardless of where he plays. I don't blame Russian fans for thinking aloud to themselves "whelp...based on past history, I give him now like a 50% less chance of developing well now that he's gone to North America". But I am suggesting that Muskegon as an individual hockey program that has experience and a setup that extends to beyond the ice to acclimatize young Russian players is deserving of a bit more than an automated robotic reply of "oh he's gone to North America he is ruined!!!!". Not all hockey programs, not all junior experiences are built the same.

Gushchin was also always going to face an uphill battle as a top tier prospect due to size. Muskegon didn't stunt his physical growth. As it is, he signed a nearly max rookie deal with an NHL team as a 19 year-old, one season after being drafted...I'd say the Sharks absolutely think he has upside. Whether or not he has a meaningful NHL career remains to be seen but that doesn't make him a failed prospect.

Don’t get me wrong , I am hoping that But succeeds and becomes a Svechikov case instead of like the others who ended up busts . I am just noting with his physical adjustments and him going through a growth spurt plus the non physical challenges which include culture and being away from friends and family, this can all be extremely challenging.

 

[kp61c]

Why is he But? Isn't Boot more correct?

 

[wings5]

Why is he But? Isn't Boot more correct?

Because But is his last name?

 

[kp61c]

Because But is his last name?

It's Бут, not Бат. But seems to be a wrong spelling of his name, if not idiotic.
An russian arms dealer with the same name serves time in jail in USA. His surname is spelled everywhere as 'Bout'. This spelling is more appropriate than stupid 'But', but less than 'Boot'.

 

[Atas2000]

Why is he But? Isn't Boot more correct?

Why? Because it would suit English more? How about French? There is no single perfect way to tranfer a name from the cyrillic tletters to latin ones. Also there are no long and short vowels in Russian. Boot would be just as "wrong".

And while we are at it, why not making a Needermuyer out of Niedermeier?

 

[Tenkkapoo]

Russians have been playing junior hockey in Canada/USA for about 30 years now. First "pioneers" from Russia left there already in the early nineties. The results have been more or less catastrophic for these players and Russian hockey in general. How many good/great players Russia has lost in the last three decades because of this (players that would have otherwise developed into much better players but whose development was ruined due to this decision to leave)?

What boggles my mind is that these players, their agents and parents still have not learned. The players are still leaving.

Are they braindead? Can't they study history at all? Are they completely unaware of the fact about the bad the track record for CHL-trained Russians?

 

[wings5]

All this talk and he is now listed on Eliteprospects on Loko's MHL team and the Muskegon transaction details have been deleted. Curious as to what is happening with him, hopefully he read this thread and changed his mind

 

[Kshahdoo]

All this talk and he is now listed on Eliteprospects on Loko's MHL team and the Muskegon transaction details have been deleted. Curious as to what is happening with him, hopefully he read this thread and changed his mind

Yeah, played a preseason game for Loko and scored a goal.

 

[vorky]

All this talk and he is now listed on Eliteprospects on Loko's MHL team and the Muskegon transaction details have been deleted. Curious as to what is happening with him, hopefully he read this thread and changed his mind

He said in the interview, that he will play for Loko.

 

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