F Cayden Lindstrom - Medicine Hat Tigers, WHL (2024, 4th, CBJ)

[GunnarStahl]

Well most people have him as the 2nd player taken. My point is Byfield was sort of in the same boat. Elite tools but not really elite elite production.

Also Medicine Hat is pretty good, with his tools 100 should, in theory, be in reach.


Yes I had him coming off his pace slightly.

Other than Hockey Prospect who else does? EP has him 4th in their rankings. But other than that a lot of outlets seemingly have him outside the top 10 or barely in there. I feel like I am high on him comparatively and I only have him floating around the top 5.

 

[TLEH]

Other than Hockey Prospect who else does? EP has him 4th in their rankings. But other than that a lot of outlets seemingly have him outside the top 10 or barely in there. I feel like I am high on him comparatively and I only have him floating around the top 5.

I guess look around the internet and HF. No official lists other than HP. I know people at EP do have him 2.

 

[majormajor]

Well most people have him as the 2nd player taken. My point is Byfield was sort of in the same boat. Elite tools but not really elite elite production.

Byfield paced for more than 110 pts, that was the year a bunch of OHL guys had ludicrous scoring totals.

 

[Castle8130]

I guess look around the internet and HF. No official lists other than HP. I know people at EP do have him 2.

I get what you are saying. A lot of the outlets that haven't seen enough tape on him still have him outside the top 10. If the draft happened today, my guess is he'd go somewhere from 3-9 based on what I have gathered from sources

 

[LeProspector]

alit of those rankings are outdated. He is more liked in the scouting world than you think.

 

[dj Mahoney]

Can anyone who's seen much of Lindstrom chime in on his game . How does he compare to Quinton Byfield ?

 

[Mrfenn92]

FYI there is a Cayden Lindstrom prospect thread op

 

[covfefe]

I haven't followed Lindstrom until recently so I'd like to hear more about his trajectory.

I'm okay with a guy not being the best problem solver at this age, as long as he's trying things and showing some progress. How long has he been this 6'4 / 6'5 beast with incredible tools? Is he just starting to figure out what he can do with his body? Or is there a consistent pattern of mistakes where he isn't learning or trying new things?

You might recall all the low IQ comments about Tim Stutzle in his draft year, he was that super toolsy guy who was making mistakes. People weren't seeing the big picture that he was learning and figuring it out.

When I first saw him playing in the CSSHL circa 2020 he was ~6'2. 15 months later he was drafted into the dub at 6'5.

In terms of your other questions, I wouldn't say that he's just figuring out what he can do w/ his size. He's just figuring out what he can do with his skill.

And I say that because he's always been bigger than everyone, but he hasn't always been better than everyone. In fact, he wasn't even the 3rd best player on his bantam or midget teams. Wasn't on their 1st line, etc. But over the last year? He's simply gotten much better at hockey.

And that's put him in a unique spot because he's never been relied on as a team's #1 guy, a primary puck carrier, offensive QB, etc. It's doubly unique to see a guy learn how to do all that in realtime, in the W, at 17. Most top kids learn how to 'be the guy' at 11/12 these days.

Overall, he's one of the more unique players in recent years. Dev curve, skill, size, and temperament - you just don't see many like him.

 

[Hodge]

I’m sold. I want the Sharks to take this guy unless we win the Celebrini lottery.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Just a month ago, posters on here were saying he had no hockey IQ and that he would drop in rankings. Now people are saying he's a top 5 pick? Which is it?

Legit wondering as I have never seen him play.

 

[Dominance]

Just a month ago, posters on here were saying he had no hockey IQ and that he would drop in rankings. Now people are saying he's a top 5 pick? Which is it?

Legit wondering as I have never seen him play.

I’m usually not “that guy” but…

Lindstrom’s a huge, highly athletic black athlete. Which do you think are likely to be more accurate, the knee-jerk IQ “concerns” leveled from Day 1 by some, or the slowly developed opinions of posters who regularly follow the WHL?

 

[Bubbles]

I’m usually not “that guy” but…

Lindstrom’s a huge, highly athletic black athlete. Which do you think are likely to be more accurate, the knee-jerk IQ “concerns” leveled from Day 1 by some, or the slowly developed opinions of posters who regularly follow the WHL?

Yep agreed.

And those who are questioning his IQ...well there are varying opinions on what that even means. No,, he can't make that defense splitting pass, but he knows where to be in the offensive zone to score goals, that also takes IQ.

The only reason that he got put no. 2 on ONE list is that everyone wants clickbait to click on their lists.

 

[MikeyS]

It‘s funny that people try to deny the IQ issues.







His size and straight line speed could carry him like it has Byfield, but that doesn’t mean you ignore the issues surrounding his decision making. Even top-10 picks can have IQ issues, especially when Size and Speed are invloned. look at Jake Virtanen

 

[majormajor]

I'm going to petition that we ban the use of "IQ" in hockey scouting discussions.

Yes it's creepy when you're using it while discussing black players. But I've also made the case many times that it is a lazy way of understanding a player's limitations. We don't have a clear way of talking about what the issue is and IQ brings different things to mind to different commenters. And we have a really bad track record of calling the wrong guys "low IQ". Stutzle was Mr. low IQ a few years ago, along with Mukhamadullin and several other perfectly good prospects. We're collectively awful at this.

To be clear, I have zero problem talking about decision making issues. It's great when people can be specific about any particular issues they see, for example if a player has limited vision or something like that.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

The whole IQ thing is weird. It means different things to different people, or can just be an easy blanket to explain a player away in evaluation. For me I think it means how quickly someone processes the game, but I've heard Rick Tocchet for example talk about IQ in the sense of learning habits & details.

For Lindstrom I think he's stronger off the puck than on the puck. He's good at getting himself in scoring areas (scored again tonight, as Medicine Hat blew the doors off Edmonton), but on his stick he maybe doesn't find options as quickly as some other guys. I think his IQ is good not elite - top 6 FWD level for sure but probably not your #1 play driver on a great team.

And also having that combination of size/hands/skating ability is such an advantage in the NHL given its often a small area game. He'll be a good top 6 forward with big goal scoring potential imo.

 

[MikeyS]

I'm going to petition that we ban the use of "IQ" in hockey scouting discussions.

Yes it's creepy when you're using it while discussing black players. But I've also made the case many times that it is a lazy way of understanding a player's limitations. We don't have a clear way of talking about what the issue is and IQ brings different things to mind to different commenters. And we have a really bad track record of calling the wrong guys "low IQ". Stutzle was Mr. low IQ a few years ago, along with Mukhamadullin and several other perfectly good prospects. We're collectively awful at this.

To be clear, I have zero problem talking about decision making issues. It's great when people can be specific about any particular issues they see, for example if a player has limited vision or something like that.

Are you f***ing serious? You’re the ONLY one brining race into this. How about you let people share their opinions on this site without disagreeing and starting off by insinuating that the reason I or other people say he has IQ issues is because he is black. That’s actually terrible and you are a terrible person for even bringing any sort of race into this. Holy f*** be better.







When I say IQ I’m referring to a player's understanding and decision-making ability. It involves anticipating plays, positioning, reading the flow of the game, and making smart choices on the ice. NOT because he is black.











I say he has IQ issues because down below this post are a few videos. in one of the themafter retrieving the puck from a battle he throws a pass in the middle of the ice to a guy being covered by 3 defenders rather than up the left half wall to the defender at the point. Low percentage play to say the least. The other is a penalty because he was trying to make a play on his knees with multiple defenders around him. Not a great look. please try to do better around here instead of disagreeing with someone and attacking them with ”he is saying it because the player at hand is black”

 

[landy92mack29]

Yep agreed.

And those who are questioning his IQ...well there are varying opinions on what that even means. No,, he can't make that defense splitting pass, but he knows where to be in the offensive zone to score goals, that also takes IQ.

The only reason that he got put no. 2 on ONE list is that everyone wants clickbait to click on their lists.

He doesn't really know where to be though....he skates around kinda aimlessly but is in a great situation where he gets to play with Basha+Mckenna who can find him anywhere. His one move is to drive wide and try to power to the net. He's not a 0 IQ player like Sampo Ranta is but he'll never be a line driver. Low IQ players get taken high all the time see Yakupov, Puljujarvi, Virtanen, Slafkovsky, etc but unless they can go into a perfect situation the odds of them busting are high. Lindstrom has the raw tools to at least stick as a energy guy but if you're taking someone top 5 even top 10 they better be a top 6 forward for you. Right now his warts aren't being exposed as badly but the higher he goes the smaller the decision windows are and while he'll always have a physical advantage it'll be less in pro hockey. For those who say there are different ways to judge hockey iq....well I've heard that from a few scouts and they surprisingly are really bad at identifying it or don't care about it just skating. Oh and for the people trying to bring race into this that's some soft bigotry of low expectations you got going on

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

I'm going to petition that we ban the use of "IQ" in hockey scouting discussions.

Yes it's creepy when you're using it while discussing black players. But I've also made the case many times that it is a lazy way of understanding a player's limitations. We don't have a clear way of talking about what the issue is and IQ brings different things to mind to different commenters. And we have a really bad track record of calling the wrong guys "low IQ". Stutzle was Mr. low IQ a few years ago, along with Mukhamadullin and several other perfectly good prospects. We're collectively awful at this.

To be clear, I have zero problem talking about decision making issues. It's great when people can be specific about any particular issues they see, for example if a player has limited vision or something like that.

Hockey IQ is decision making. Vision is a tool, as is speed, stickhandling, manipulation, passing, shooting (various different types), body checking, stick checking, etc.

Hockey IQ is the selective application of these tools based on situation and reaction time. Ryan Merkley for example had excellent vision and passing, could see the seams that were there, but would often opt for risky passes through traffic rather than making the simple play. When it worked it was beautiful, when it didn't he got burned. He didn't have the hockey IQ to make the right decision most of the time.

Same with Virtanen and not knowing when to use power moves, when to look for an open man, when to lay off a hit.

Same with Galchenyuk trying to overuse stickhandling and manipulation without moving his feet.

What all these players have in common is low hockey IQ. What they also all have in common is they aren't black.

To bring race into this is laughable and you should feel bad.

 

[austin63867]

I think for most of the people here relying on game tape and not being directly close to the player or team makes it difficult to truly assess IQ most of the time. I assume most people are don't personally have any connections to the players they're viewing, so knowing their abilities mentally isn't easy to say with certainty.

Not against using Hockey IQ analysis if there's a clear glaring issue, but guys like Byfield have been wrongly accused of being low IQ when it clearly wasn't the case.

 

[Gliff]

I'm going to petition that we ban the use of "IQ" in hockey scouting discussions.

Yes it's creepy when you're using it while discussing black players. But I've also made the case many times that it is a lazy way of understanding a player's limitations. We don't have a clear way of talking about what the issue is and IQ brings different things to mind to different commenters. And we have a really bad track record of calling the wrong guys "low IQ". Stutzle was Mr. low IQ a few years ago, along with Mukhamadullin and several other perfectly good prospects. We're collectively awful at this.

To be clear, I have zero problem talking about decision making issues. It's great when people can be specific about any particular issues they see, for example if a player has limited vision or something like that.

So because he is black he can’t be criticized in the same way countless white (or any other race for that matter) prospects have been criticized?

I think it’s fair to disagree with the evaluation, but for the love of god don’t act like it is because of the color of his skin.

 

[austin63867]

So because he is black he can’t be criticized in the same way countless white (or any other race for that matter) prospects have been criticized?

I think it’s fair to disagree with the evaluation, but for the love of god don’t act like it is because of the color of his skin.

I don't think it's racially motivated but I can see how people might think that's a component seeing as Byfield, Serron Noel & Emerson Etem have been thrown around in this discussion thread.

I see in the NBA Draft all the time white players get compared to other white players almost always so it's not something new where people are like "hold on".

 

[vildurson]

Are we still sure that he is not just a really good complimentary player that can shoot and create space(even though he is not the most physichal player for his size) for McKenna and Basha who are main line drivers on the team? I don't see enough elite tools other than his size and shot. He ain't really playmaker either.

I think he is getting bit overhyped at this point and I find him bit difficult to evaluate for now.

 

[Goldenhands]

Are we still sure that he is not just a really good complimentary player that can shoot and create space(even though he is not the most physichal player for his size) for McKenna and Basha who are main line drivers on the team? I don't see enough elite tools other than his size and shot. He ain't really playmaker either.

I think he is getting bit overhyped at this point and I find him bit difficult to evaluate for now.

He is playing with Mckenna only on the PP, plays on the same line as Basha.

Lindstrom is a puck possession center with great athletic tools and strength. His puckhandling skills and skating are high level, he is great at cycling the puck down low, goes in traffic and rarely loses possession with a bad pass or low % play. His positioning is solid all over the ice and plays an heavy 200 ft game.

I dont get the IQ criticisms personally, everytime Ive watched him I thought he played smart solid hockey. He is all about effectiveness, not flashyness. In the same mold as a Slafkovsky, kid is simply a puck possession monster, the upside is really huge.

I have him 3rd on my list after Celebrini, Silayev.

 

[landy92mack29]

I think for most of the people here relying on game tape and not being directly close to the player or team makes it difficult to truly assess IQ most of the time. I assume most people are don't personally have any connections to the players they're viewing, so knowing their abilities mentally isn't easy to say with certainty.

Not against using Hockey IQ analysis if there's a clear glaring issue, but guys like Byfield have been wrongly accused of being low IQ when it clearly wasn't the case.

lol what? we're talking hockey IQ not actual IQ...what a player does, or doesn't do on the ice is all you need to judge them. I'm sure quite a few low hockey IQ players are actually good in school, 2 completely separate things.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think for most of the people here relying on game tape and not being directly close to the player or team makes it difficult to truly assess IQ most of the time. I assume most people are don't personally have any connections to the players they're viewing, so knowing their abilities mentally isn't easy to say with certainty.

Not against using Hockey IQ analysis if there's a clear glaring issue, but guys like Byfield have been wrongly accused of being low IQ when it clearly wasn't the case.

I don't think many people said Byfield had low hockey IQ, what people did question was whether his hockey-IQ was at the level you'd want out of a clear franchise #1 center which is what you hope to get if you are taking a center 2nd overall. Byfield's game has grown over the past 18 months, but it hasn't really disproven that point. Byfield has excelled once he was asked to have less responsibility in the decision-making aspects of the game being centered by Kopitar/played on the wing and asked to rely on his elite physical tools to be a beast forechecking, win puck battles down low, create breakouts using his speed, etc. Players with only average or slightly above average hockey-iq can still be insanely useful if they have other high-end physical traits.

It's not a question where someone either has high-iq or low-iq, there's a large gap between the Mitch Marner's and Sam Reinharts of the world and the Jake Virtanen and Nail Yakupov's, there is a large spectrum on which players can land. For example, someone like Sam Bennett is not a high-iq player, but he can still be incredibly useful if utilized correctly, and he has nowhere near the raw physical tools someone like Byfield and Lindstrom possesses.