Evan Bouchard will finish the season with a .ppg and 82 points, +34

[Cup or Bust]

The difference is I talked about your opinion. You talked about me personally. If you want to trade infractions here let's keep this going.

Nurse is reliably horrible defensively. You listen to Stauffer, right? Text into the show and he'll tell you Nurse has had a horrible time adjusting to the simplest defensive scheme in the NHL this year. Guy has the hockey IQ of - well - you.

I don't care about convincing *you*. I care about convincing anyone else reading this conversation that your hockey opinions were formed in 1951 and never changed one iota.


dude is the absolute epitome of "my eyes done told me". He doesn't care if his argument works or not.

I don't care about Nurse, you brought up Nurse. What does Nurse have to do with Bouchard being bad defensively? I don't think you understand the difference between reliability defensively (which can only be measured by watching a players performance in different game situations over time and viewing their skillset) and statistics which only tell you his overall results which are effected by a number of factors. If Bouchard played for the Ducks, his defensive stats would be garbage but his reliability overall in certain situations and his skillset will still be the same. You could recognize his potential based on those in spite of playing on a lousy team and having lousy stats but I guess if someone is clueless about hockey and only looks at stats they would not have the ability to do that. Stats are great but they are not the only thing to consider when analyzing a player.

 

[McShogun99]

He's a hard player to read. Can't tell if he's a product of his environment or a key contributor.

He's a bit of both. He plays the perfect style for what the Oilers are but he needs a solid partner to cover for him. You put him on any team's 1st PP and he's getting points and being a major contributor to the team.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

that's funny, because without the benefit of the league's best goaltending, he was pretty comparable in GA/60 to McAvoy.

He's also playing with offensive powerhouses who keep the puck on the offensive zone and is stacked with a great two way (or defensive dman) in Ekholm. I'm willing to bet McAvoy had to play more defense than Bouchard did.

Bouchard isn't engaged enough all of the time. He doesn't scan the ice and have his head on a swivel the amount that you want him to. He's not phenomenal on odd-man rushes, he tends to overcommit without realizing he has no support to do so, etc.

You put him on a weak team and with a weak line mate, you'll see a much different stat line (as is with everybody, however you'll see how glaring his negatives would show). Stats are very easy to cherry pick to make it appear as if he is better than he is, but when you watch him in game he's often not boxing out, not tying up sticks, not scanning, etc. He's aloof a lot of the time. It's just fortunate he's often playing in the other end.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

not really, I watched live as Vegas completely bullied Hughes and took his lunch money a few weeks back in Vegas...he couldn't handle the size of Vegas' forwards and got lit up

He hasn't even had a minus game this year against Vegas...

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

He hasn't even had a minus game this year against Vegas...

oh so now +/- matters...well Bouchard is 5th in the league

not bad for a guy who "sucks" defensively

 

[Madap]

Well now you are trying to change the argument.

You claimed being compared to Barrie was a bad thing, and I showed that Barrie has always been an elite point producer. Instead of addressing that point, you ignored it.

Then you just threw some stuff out without thinking. Of Course Nurse, RNH, and Draisaitl have had their career years as Oilers. They didn't ever play on other teams.

For Hyman, he scored at a 63 point pace his last year in Toronto. He played second unit PP. In Edmonton he's a first unit staple, and scoring has also ballooned league wide the last couple of seasons. Adding 15-20 points from his Toronto days doesn't seem far fetched.

Seems like the only one saying Bouchard is Norris worthy is you, creating strawman arguments. Bouchard for sure is much better than he's been given credit for on this board.


No one is comparing Bouchard to Makar. Settle down.

People saying Bouchard is another Barrie are just completely off the rails and lost in the woods though. Bouchard was playing top four minutes 5v5 over Barrie while they were both on the team. Bouchard has been a better defender than Barrie since his rookie year.

I’m not changing anything, you jumped in midway through a discussion I was having with another poster who implied that Bouchard’s season was much better than anything Barrie accomplished while he was here. I pointed out that is not true.

And my point is that all of their career years have been unrepeated, despite Oilers fans claiming these players are all amazing. When you play with a generational player, you have a higher chance of hitting elite numbers. It would surprise no one if this happened again with Bouchard. And I haven’t seen anyone mention the Norris/Makar/Hughes in this thread, but it most certainly has been mentioned throughout this year by Oiler fans. You guys are boosting him too hard, and will likely be disappointed.

But sure, tell me again how Hyman’s 55 goals this year is realistic for him to have achieved in Toronto.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

damn, way above my expectations. I always knew he had potential but didnt expect him to put up numbers like that but then again I never expected Hyman to become a 50 goal scorer even if he was playing with McDavid.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

oh so now +/- matters...well he's 5th in the league

not bad for a guy who "sucks" defensively

Well I mean, if a guy is getting "bullied" as a defenseman, you would think the other team would be scoring goals on him endlessly.

Who knows though, I guess some of us get a bit more creative with the English language.

 

[Czechboy]

pointed out that is not true

You absolutely did not point that out.

If you feel, at some point, that you convinced anyone that Tyson Barrie has had a better season in his career than the one bouch just had... Then I have some bad news for you.

 

[Madap]

You absolutely did not point that out.

If you feel, at some point, that you convinced anyone that Tyson Barrie has had a better season in his career than the one bouch just had... Then I have some bad news for you.

No, I do not think that. I said “much better” as you implied by comparing Bouchards 80 points to Barrie’s 50 points except not pointing out the difference in the number of games. They are comparable seasons, and what Bouchard accomplished this season is really not that big of a deal.

 

[brentashton]

If he turns every player into a superstar, as you claim, he would be the most valuable player to his team and it wouldn’t be close.

Jase, I don’t think the dude understands what the connection between making players superstars and thus being an MVP is. Not worth discussing it methinks.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Well I mean, if a guy is getting "bullied" as a defenseman, you would think the other team would be scoring goals on him endlessly.

Who knows though, I guess some of us get a bit more creative with the English language.

he was scored on in like the first minutes of the game lol

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

he was scored on in like the first minutes of the game lol

Oh wow.

 

[Czechboy]

No, I do not think that. I said “much better” as you implied by comparing Bouchards 80 points to Barrie’s 50 points except not pointing out the difference in the number of games. They are comparable seasons, and what Bouchard accomplished this season is really not that big of a deal.

Please tell me which year Barrie had that was better than or comparable to

82 points, plus 34 and 23 minutes a night.

Not a big deal is pretty funny.. it was already pointed out that only 23 D have ever had 82 points or more in history.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

I like that people missed the whole "dominant in 150+ minutes without Ekholm or McDavid on the ice with him". They also ignored the Jfresh chart showing he's clearly gotten a lot better defensively.

Unfortunately this board seems to be filled either with people with tiktok attention spans that assume a quick clip of a guy getting beaten badly can be extrapolated to an entire season/career OR "that's not real hockey!!!1" types who think good defense is blocking 3 shots while being hemmed in your zone for 2 minutes before clearing it off the glass.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Oh wow.

right? poor little guy

 

[Cup or Bust]

I like that people missed the whole "dominant in 150+ minutes without Ekholm or McDavid on the ice with him". They also ignored the Jfresh chart showing he's clearly gotten a lot better defensively.

Unfortunately this board seems to be filled either with people with tiktok attention spans that assume a quick clip of a guy getting beaten badly can be extrapolated to an entire season/career OR "that's not real hockey!!!1" types who think good defense is blocking 3 shots while being hemmed in your zone for 2 minutes before clearing it off the glass.

Lots have watched him play over 200 NHL games and recognize he is not very good defensively, nor does he have a good defensive skillset. I am an Oilers fan but maybe he should only be discussed with biased Oilers fans that want to pump his tires that way everyone can be in agreement. Probably best not to discuss something with the general public about something if you want everyone to 100% agree on. He did have a great season but that doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses in his game and defensively he definitely has some glaring weaknesses that are always a risk with him.

 

[HugginThePost]

It reminds me of the days when Nurse was being compared to Pronger........

........things can turn in an instant.

 

[Fourier]

I suspect there is something about Bouchard's play that makes him a polarizing player.

Last fall I read a piece by Dom Luszczyszyn at the Athletic, in which one of the tables showed Bouchard as over performing already quite high expectations from his pre-season model. (And this was during the awful start of the Oilers season.) So, I made a comment saying this really doesn't vibe with my eye-test, but that I will definitely be looking closer at Bouchard after this as I really appreciate Dom's work. He kindly came back and made a few points and said why this may be.

Now I read this pice and although I am not completely convinced by the technical analysis (and it quite frankly smells of a bit of bias) it makes many good points in favor of Bouchard. At the same time, the opening video in the piece of Matthews beating him in the corner shows what must be characterized as a"brutal" defensive mistake. In fact it's so brutal, I don't really take it that seriously, he must not have cared or something. Come playoffs, with everyone's mind completely focused, that is unlikely to be allowed. You can't have one mistake like that per player per series, because then you're eliminated, no matter how much you tilt the ice etc..

My inclination is to believe that the Bouchard supporters are more right than wrong, but I don't watch enough of his play or study stats in depth to have my own firm opinion. To me he really stands out as an example of a stark contrast between eye and stat.

The problem with focusing too much on "brutal mistakes" is that it is really about the balance between good and bad that matters. A defenseman that makes very few mistakes but is extremely passive/conservative and tends to never do anything that helps you score is not necessarily going to help you win more than a guy who makes errors but also creates lots of chances. And by creating chances I don't necessarily mean only obvious offensive contributions. I watched Paul Coffey mature as a defenseman as an Oiler season ticket holder through the 80's. He has a reputation around here as being bad defensively in part because he took chances and made noticeable errors. And yet he was one of the best I have ever seen at getting the puck out of his own end. Dump it in on Coffey and you better hope that you can beat him to the puck, not easily done by the way, because otherwise it was going to go the other way and often very quickly. In fact, while Coffey made his share of brutal gaffs, far more often when the puck ended up on his stick something good happened.

No one is claiming Bouchard is a young Paul Coffey. Certianly not me. Or even that he is great defensively. In many aspects of the game he is a work in progress, as you would expect form almost any 24 year old defenseman. But he has some of the qualities that made Coffey great. And right now the guy plays big minutes against the opposition's best while coming out significantly ahead. This is not something that we would have all expected even 18 months ago.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I don't care about Nurse, you brought up Nurse. What does Nurse have to do with Bouchard being bad defensively? I don't think you understand the difference between reliability defensively (which can only be measured by watching a players performance in different game situations over time and viewing their skillset) and statistics which only tell you his overall results which are effected by a number of factors. If Bouchard played for the Ducks, his defensive stats would be garbage but his reliability overall in certain situations and his skillset will still be the same. You could recognize his potential based on those in spite of playing on a lousy team and having lousy stats but I guess if someone is clueless about hockey and only looks at stats they would not have the ability to do that. Stats are great but they are not the only thing to consider when analyzing a player.

It's to illustrate that you don't know what you're talking about. About anything. If you think that Nurse is good defensively and Bouchard is bad when they have similar defensive results against similar competition on the same team in front of the same goaltending, your opinion is based on bias and absolutely nothing more.

 

[Cup or Bust]

It's to illustrate that you don't know what you're talking about. About anything. If you think that Nurse is good defensively and Bouchard is bad when they have similar defensive results against similar competition on the same team in front of the same goaltending, your opinion is based on bias and absolutely nothing more.

I would take Nurse over Bouchard defensively of course, not even debatable, but I would take almost any d-man in the NHL over Bouchard defensively, I think he has one of the worst defensive skillsets I have seen. You think Bouchard is good defensively, I think he's bad so that is where it is at. Bouchard is in the NHL for elite offensive ability only, no one wants him for his defense, it's a weakness, not a strength by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[MessierII]

Bouchard is doing at the NHL level what he’s done at every level. Not sure what’s shocking or controversial.

 

[NeverForget06]

It reminds me of the days when Nurse was being compared to Pronger........

........things can turn in an instant.

hmmm I think you might be making this up entirely

 

[Madap]

Please tell me which year Barrie had that was better than or comparable to

82 points, plus 34 and 23 minutes a night.

Not a big deal is pretty funny.. it was already pointed out that only 23 D have ever had 82 points or more in history.

I already pointed out that the Covid shorten season had Barrie on pace for 70 points. Considering the lower scoring environment, and worse Oilers team, and the fact that he played much less per game than Bouchard, it’s a pretty comparable season offensively. I still think Bouchard comes out ahead, but acting like Bouchard is doing something unheard for the Oilers is something I disagree with. We’ve seen time and again players have insane seasons playing with McDavid, but until they repeat (which they never do) then it’s more an indication on McDavid than the player.

Next season will roll around and everyone will forget about Hyman and Bouchard but Kane is going to have a career year and Oiler fans will be pushing him for the Hart.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I'm going to dredge up an old gem and just say OFDTO to this. Jesus Christ.

We will never agree so there really is no point to continue.