Evan Bouchard will finish the season with a .ppg and 82 points, +34

[HockeyVirus]

Someone who can magically turn players on their team into superstars isn’t an MVP? Ok.

Of course he is an MVP. Whether he is the most valuable player to their team in the league is the debate.

 

[Bank Shot]

Come on man, just look at your team.

First it Barrie with his best offensive season as an Oiler, then it was Nurse, then it was Nuge, then it’s Hyman. Draisaitl too to a certain extent, although he’s still a great player on his own. Bouchard will be another in a long list of Oilers than fans overrate and will not be able to repeat.

There’s one common factor, it’s McDavid. You guys clearly do not appreciate how good this guy is, hell you have one fan in here telling me that McDavids season this year is because of Bouchard hahahaha. Maybe I’ll end up being wrong, but Oilers fans should at least wait one season before claiming this guy is Norris worthy.

Well now you are trying to change the argument.

You claimed being compared to Barrie was a bad thing, and I showed that Barrie has always been an elite point producer. Instead of addressing that point, you ignored it.

Then you just threw some stuff out without thinking. Of Course Nurse, RNH, and Draisaitl have had their career years as Oilers. They didn't ever play on other teams.

For Hyman, he scored at a 63 point pace his last year in Toronto. He played second unit PP. In Edmonton he's a first unit staple, and scoring has also ballooned league wide the last couple of seasons. Adding 15-20 points from his Toronto days doesn't seem far fetched.

Seems like the only one saying Bouchard is Norris worthy is you, creating strawman arguments. Bouchard for sure is much better than he's been given credit for on this board.

Real talk: if you're choosing a defender for your franchise you taking Makar or Bouchard?

The answer was once easily Makar (and rightfully so). Today it's not an easy answer.

No one is comparing Bouchard to Makar. Settle down.

People saying Bouchard is another Barrie are just completely off the rails and lost in the woods though. Bouchard was playing top four minutes 5v5 over Barrie while they were both on the team. Bouchard has been a better defender than Barrie since his rookie year.

 

[Leksand]

For the...but he is brutal defensively...crowd who dismiss his advance statistical success because of McDavid , you may want to read this:

An in-depth analysis of Evan Bouchard’s game using stats and video

<span style="font-weight: 400">Evan Bouchard is having a phenomenal se...

oilersnation.com

It does a great job of debunking most of the common misconceptions about a guy who has improved immensely this year

I suspect there is something about Bouchard's play that makes him a polarizing player.

Last fall I read a piece by Dom Luszczyszyn at the Athletic, in which one of the tables showed Bouchard as over performing already quite high expectations from his pre-season model. (And this was during the awful start of the Oilers season.) So, I made a comment saying this really doesn't vibe with my eye-test, but that I will definitely be looking closer at Bouchard after this as I really appreciate Dom's work. He kindly came back and made a few points and said why this may be.

Now I read this pice and although I am not completely convinced by the technical analysis (and it quite frankly smells of a bit of bias) it makes many good points in favor of Bouchard. At the same time, the opening video in the piece of Matthews beating him in the corner shows what must be characterized as a"brutal" defensive mistake. In fact it's so brutal, I don't really take it that seriously, he must not have cared or something. Come playoffs, with everyone's mind completely focused, that is unlikely to be allowed. You can't have one mistake like that per player per series, because then you're eliminated, no matter how much you tilt the ice etc..

My inclination is to believe that the Bouchard supporters are more right than wrong, but I don't watch enough of his play or study stats in depth to have my own firm opinion. To me he really stands out as an example of a stark contrast between eye and stat.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

He's a hard player to read. Can't tell if he's a product of his environment or a key contributor.

 

[zar]

Admittedly, I’m not the biggest Bouchard booster but the hypocrisy of people saying “he is just a product of McDavid”.

Then you have Hedman, playing with one of the two headed Hart beasts, Kucherov. Makar, playing with the other. Hughes, playing on the deepest team since the 1970s Canadiens. Hand the Norris to Josi.

Bouchard is an elite offensive Dman, but below average defensive dman. It’s why he and Ekholm (he is the one that is Norris worthy) make such a great pairing. What exactly is the issue again? It’s like no good offensive minded Dman ever had warts in their defensive game or offensive help by playing with elite forward talent. Actually show me how many recent Norris winners played on teams without at least 2 elite offensive forwards &/or a very strong defensive partner.

If Bouchard is as bad as so many HF pundits claim, Ekholm deserves the Norris… AINEC. 45 points (41 ES), strong physical dman, plays big minutes (ES ,PK and PP) and carrying his defensive pairing to elite stats while playing with a pylon.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Of course he is an MVP. Whether he is the most valuable player to their team in the league is the debate.

If he turns every player into a superstar, as you claim, he would be the most valuable player to his team and it wouldn’t be close.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Lots of Oiler fans don't understand what they're watching either.

He ain't Pronger in his own zone, but he mitigates that by keeping the puck away from his zone as much as possible. That's the best way to play defence.


I'd rather have him at 9.5 than Nurse at 9.25. Want Nurse?

If Nurse got to quarterback the powerplay and score 50-60 points a season (The guy scores double digit goals and 35- 40 points with very limited offensive opportunity and also plays with zero offensive ability partner Ceci). If he received the same offensive opportunities with his size, physical play, and skating ability, yes I would rather have Nurse.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

This narrative needs to die...Quinn Hughes makes mistakes, Erik Karlsson makes mistakes, Makar isn't amazing defensively

Bouchard has been on the ice for less ES GA than Josi and Hedman

Come on, man... Bouchard is horrible defensively. Let's call a spade a spade here. Karlsson is an apt comparison, but comparing him to Hughes is really reaching.

Bouchard has surpassed my expectations, but he's still out there chasing pucks and even at times completely disconnecting the controller. His offense is what is creating his good defensive metrics. In his own zone he is below average and anybody claiming otherwise is not paying enough attention.

 

[McRpro]

Come on, man... Bouchard is horrible defensively. Let's call a spade a spade here. Karlsson is an apt comparison, but comparing him to Hughes is really reaching.

Bouchard has surpassed my expectations, but he's still out there chasing pucks and even at times completely disconnecting the controller. His offense is what is creating his good defensive metrics. In his own zone he is below average and anybody claiming otherwise is not paying enough attention.

So is he horrible or below average defensively?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

If Nurse got to quarterback the powerplay and score 50-60 points a season (guy scores double digit goals and 35- 40 points with very limited offensive opportunity and also plays with zero offensive ability partner Ceci). If he received the same offensive opportunities with his size, physical play, and skating ability, yes I would rather have Nurse.

This is a bad opinion, but it's yours and you're entitled to have it.

Nurse only managed two even strength points more than his zero offensive ability partner and to be quite frank his defensive game was no better than Bouchard's was this year and you could make the argument that it was worse.

Nurse doesn't get the powerplay opportunities because he's not overly good at it and never has been. His shot is a muffin and he's not the passer Bouchard is.

 

[Cup or Bust]

This is a bad opinion, but it's yours and you're entitled to have it.

Nurse only managed two even strength points more than his zero offensive ability partner and to be quite frank his defensive game was no better than Bouchard's was this year and you could make the argument that it was worse.

Nurse doesn't get the powerplay opportunities because he's not overly good at it and never has been. His shot is a muffin and he's not the passer Bouchard is.

We will just agree to disagree because I think you are clueless also. Anyone that watches Bouchard and thinks he is good defensively has no idea what they are talking about.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

So is he horrible or below average defensively?

Horrible at times and below average overall.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

We will just agree to disagree because I think you are clueless also.

If you're watching 2023-24 Darnell Nurse and thinking to yourself boy all this guy needs is some powerplay time and he's worth every penny then you're a whole lot worse than clueless. You wanna start ad hominem attacks, I can play that game all day.

 

[Cup or Bust]

If you're watching 2023-24 Darnell Nurse and thinking to yourself boy all this guy needs is some powerplay time and he's worth every penny then you're a whole lot worse than clueless. You wanna start ad hominem attacks, I can play that game all day.

You brought up Nurse and asked a hypothetical question. You can disagree, I don't really care. Bouchard good defensively, man, I have heard it all now.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Horrible at times and below average overall.

that's funny, because without the benefit of the league's best goaltending, he was pretty comparable in GA/60 to McAvoy.

 

[Leksand]

Admittedly, I’m not the biggest Bouchard booster but the hypocrisy of people saying “he is just a product of McDavid”.

Then you have Hedman, playing with one of the two headed Hart beasts, Kucherov. Makar, playing with the other. Hughes, playing on the deepest team since the 1970s Canadiens. Hand the Norris to Josi.

Bouchard is an elite offensive Dman, but below average defensive dman. It’s why he and Ekholm (he is the one that is Norris worthy) make such a great pairing. What exactly is the issue again? It’s like no good offensive minded Dman ever had warts in their defensive game or offensive help by playing with elite forward talent. Actually show me how many recent Norris winners played on teams without at least 2 elite offensive forwards &/or a very strong defensive partner.

If Bouchard is as bad as so many HF pundits claim, Ekholm deserves the Norris… AINEC. 45 points (41 ES), strong physical dman, plays big minutes (ES ,PK and PP) and carrying his defensive pairing to elite stats while playing with a pylon.

These are good points and I basically agree. Just have to point out that Hedman and Maker won the Conn Smythe. I think deservedly so, although it's always possible to quibble. I really don't see Bouchard being in even quibbling distance from winning a CS, as u suggest it would really have to be Bouchard and Ekholm getting it as a pair, which seems unlikely....

 

[Czechboy]

Then you just threw some stuff out without thinking. Of Course Nurse, RNH, and Draisaitl have had their career years as Oilers. They didn't ever play on other teams.

All your points were great... I'd also like to add.. those players also all aged as Oilers and are nearing their athletic peaks. All first rounders too. You would think first rounders drafted by any franchise would continually improve to their athletic peak and then eventually decline with age.

McD has also gotten better every year.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You brought up Nurse and asked a hypothetical question. Not very bright I see. You can disagree don't really care. Bouchard good defensively, man, I have heard it all now.

I brought up Nurse, and you responded with one of the worst opinions I have ever seen on this site and then got butthurt about your opinion being called bad.

Let's dumb it down some more.

Bouchard was on for 58 goals against this year at 5v5. Nurse was on for 58 goals against this year at 5v5. Bouchard played more minutes, and more minutes against top competition. Bouchard was on for fewer scoring chances against and fewer high danger chances against.

This stuff is tracked by people smarter than either of us. Even your smooth marble brain can process this if you really try.

Clearly you do care, because you're demonstrating a profound lack of shutting up.

 

[Czechboy]

These are good points and I basically agree. Just have to point out that Hedman and Maker won the Conn Smythe. I think deservedly so, although it's always possible to quibble. I really don't see Bouchard being in even quibbling distance from winning a CS, as u suggest it would really have to be Bouchard and Ekholm getting it as a pair, which seems unlikely....

For me personally, if we are getting to the part in the argument where we are saying that he's not as good as Makar and Hedman then that's great! Totally agree. Hughes is better too. So is Josi. So are about 10 other D.

Agree he won't win the CS or the Norris. No one is saying he is the best Dman in the world and to rename the Norris after him.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I brought up Nurse, and you responded with one of the worst opinions I have ever seen on this site and then got butthurt about your opinion being called bad.

Let's dumb it down some more.

Bouchard was on for 58 goals against this year at 5v5. Nurse was on for 58 goals against this year at 5v5. Bouchard played more minutes, and more minutes against top competition. Bouchard was on for fewer scoring chances against and fewer high danger chances against.

This stuff is tracked by people smarter than either of us. Even your smooth marble brain can process this if you really try.

Clearly you do care, because you're demonstrating a profound lack of shutting up.

You can call my opinion bad and I think you are completely clueless so at least we can agree on something. My opinion of anyone that watches Bouchard and claims he is good defensively is pretty low so you are certainly not going to convince me you know what you are talking about.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Come on, man... Bouchard is horrible defensively. Let's call a spade a spade here. Karlsson is an apt comparison, but comparing him to Hughes is really reaching.

Bouchard has surpassed my expectations, but he's still out there chasing pucks and even at times completely disconnecting the controller. His offense is what is creating his good defensive metrics. In his own zone he is below average and anybody claiming otherwise is not paying enough attention.

not really, I watched live as Vegas completely bullied Hughes and took his lunch money a few weeks back in Vegas...he couldn't handle the size of Vegas' forwards and got lit up

 

[Neil Racki]

Congrats Evan .. nice season young man.

Benefiting from the team he plays on? Probably but you could say the same for about 5 teams or so. I mean, he nor any D man would be sniffing PPG levels if he played for the Caps.

A PPG d man .. is a PPG d man.

 

[Old Boys Club]

You can call my opinion bad and I think you are completely clueless so at least we can agree on something. I don't think you understand the difference between reliability defensively and statistics. My opinion of anyone that watches Bouchard and claims he is good defensively is pretty low so you are certainly not going to convince me you know what you are talking about.

Counter argument to your claim:

Bad defensively -> ??? -> Good defensive stats/results

What's the missing part that makes your argument work? McDavid? Goaltending? Ekholm? Might I remind you Bouchard has had similar results playing on pairings with Nurse and Broberg in the past 2 seasons.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You can call my opinion bad and I think you are completely clueless so at least we can agree on something. I don't think you understand the difference between reliability defensively and statistics. My opinion of anyone that watches Bouchard and claims he is good defensively is pretty low so you are certainly not going to convince me you know what you are talking about.

The difference is I talked about your opinion. You talked about me personally. If you want to trade infractions here let's keep this going.

Nurse is reliably horrible defensively. You listen to Stauffer, right? Text into the show and he'll tell you Nurse has had a horrible time adjusting to the simplest defensive scheme in the NHL this year. Guy has the hockey IQ of - well - you.

I don't care about convincing *you*. I care about convincing anyone else reading this conversation that your hockey opinions were formed in 1951 and never changed one iota.

Counter argument to your claim:

Bad defensively -> ??? -> Good defensive stats/results

What's the missing part that makes your argument work? McDavid? Goaltending? Ekholm? Might I remind you Bouchard has had similar results playing on pairings with Nurse and Broberg in the past 2 seasons.

dude is the absolute epitome of "my eyes done told me". He doesn't care if his argument works or not.

 

[Leksand]

For me personally, if we are getting to the part in the argument where we are saying that he's not as good as Makar and Hedman then that's great! Totally agree. Hughes is better too. So is Josi. So are about 10 other D.

Agree he won't win the CS or the Norris. No one is saying he is the best Dman in the world and to rename the Norris after him.

Yes