Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

Grate n Colorful Oz

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The premise of extrapolating from Canada's numbers doesn't seem to fit.

IIHF says there are 1.65 million registered players worldwide in 2022 and Canada comprises between 500k and 600k of that, so around 1/3, far from the ratio expected by the OP.
 

jigglysquishy

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The premise of extrapolating from Canada's numbers doesn't seem to fit.

IIHF says there are 1.65 million registered players worldwide in 2022 and Canada comprises between 500k and 600k of that, so around 1/3, far from the ratio expected by the OP.
The data is Canada is 42.7% of the NHL in 2021.

40% of 1.65 million is 700k, so it's fairly in line.
 

Midnight Judges

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Right, and you would also expect a slight overrepresentation of North American players in the NHL relative to Europeans and Russians, because playing in the league that resides on your home continent is generally going to be a plus for people.

For example, a Russian player of NHL caliber could be enticed to stay in the KHL. This is especially true for fringe NHL players who would be given a choice of bouncing from AHL to NHL - a "maybe NHL" job, or the certainty of a spot on a pro team. That certainty aspect is going to be attractive.
 

ichbinkanadier

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Apr 22, 2023
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see coaching being discussed.

If you look at the players today, their skill level is leaps and bounds ahead of those of the past (collectively speaking) because the coaching is much better.

This is a quality vs quantity issue. How many players would you need who receive average coaching to create the same pool of players who receive elite coaching? Look at the difference in goaltending. There was a time going down was looked at as bad despite the fact that 90% of the goals were scored in the bottom foot of the net.

Sweden, Russia, Czechislovakia (and then Czechia and Slovakia) have all produced competitive teams despite a smaller pool of players to choose from. How? Likely coaching.
 

Jets4Life

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There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and decades. As a result, people have had very different opinions on the topic. Some have argued that the NHL was at its pinnacle during the Original Six era (where only the ~100 best players in the world made the league). Others have argued that the fifties and sixties had a shallow talent pool, because nearly all of the players came from a single, relatively small country.

@jigglysquishy recently came up with an interesting approach. His starting point was to estimate the Canadian talent pool. (This appears to be a good starting point because, throughout NHL history, Canada has produced by far the most players). We can estimate Canada's talent pool by looking at males from ages 20-34 (the age range for the majority of NHL players). It's great that life expectancies are longer nowadays, but it doesn't impact the NHL talent pool if we have more men living into their seventies, eighties, and beyond. We would then estimate the global talent pool by assuming that the ratio of Canadian NHL players to non-Canadian NHL players approximates the global ratio. In other words, if 80% of all NHL players are Canadian, Canada has probably produced 80% of the world's NHL-calibre players. Both of these concepts make sense, but I'll take a deeper dive into each.

Based on this approach, my conclusion is the NHL was at its highest quality (on a per roster spot basis) during the late Original Six era. It reached its nadir during the 1970's and Dead Puck Era. The current NHL talent pool (as of 2023) is rapidly approaching the quality of the Original Six era.
This is just basic mathematics. When there are only six teams, there may be roughly 125-150 NHL players. The NHL then tripled in size in only seven years. Today, there was 32 teams, and most likely 800 NHL players.

The talent pool is much larger today for many reasons. The popularity of ice hockey in the USA, which was once confined to Minnesota, Michigan, and the Northeast US, is now played in virtually every US state, thanks to placing several teams in non-traditional markets.

Hockey in Scandinavia is more popular today than ever, however, Swedes and Finns did not start really coming over in droves until the 1980s. The collapse of the Iron Curtain in the late 80s, led to an abundance of players from Eastern Europe, mainly Russia and the Czech republic.

Also of note, is players salaries in the 60s were on par with many professions, such as tradesmen. Today, 4th line forwards make nearly one million, and the average salary, is most likely $3,000,000+ which makes playing the game far more enticing to young people.

The only drawback, is the number of NHL teams has outpaced the increase in the talent pool over the years. So while there are far more talented people playing the game today, there are many NHL players that would have never cracked the NHL when it was a six team league.
 

mattihp

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Hockey in Scandinavia is more popular today than ever, however, Swedes and Finns did not start really coming over in droves until the 1980s.
Don't know how nuch of a factor popularity of ice hockey in Scandinavia is as only Sweden really produces more than the odd player there.
 

Jets4Life

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Don't know how nuch of a factor popularity of ice hockey in Scandinavia is as only Sweden really produces more than the odd player there.
Ice hockey is massively popular in Sweden and Finland.

107 Swedes and 55 Finns played in the NHL during the 2022-23 season.

For a country with a total population of only 5.6 million, Finland produces nearly as many NHL players as Canada, on a per capita basis.
 

mattihp

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Ice hockey is massively popular in Sweden and Finland.

107 Swedes and 55 Finns played in the NHL during the 2022-23 season.

For a country with a total population of only 5.6 million, Finland produces nearly as many NHL players as Canada, on a per capita basis.
Yeah, Finland and Sweden would have a better example than Scandinavia. Sweden is the only legit source of talent in Scandinavia
 

Theokritos

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Hockey in Scandinavia is more popular today than ever, however, Swedes and Finns did not start really coming over in droves until the 1980s.

Don't know how nuch of a factor popularity of ice hockey in Scandinavia is as only Sweden really produces more than the odd player there.

Ice hockey is massively popular in Sweden and Finland.

Yeah, Finland and Sweden would have a better example than Scandinavia. Sweden is the only legit source of talent in Scandinavia

You are talking past each other. Per most definitions, Scandinavia only includes Sweden and Norway (and usually Denmark too), but not Finland. In English, however, it is not all that uncommon to use Scandinavia interchangeably with Nordic countries, which includes Finland.
 
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Jets4Life

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You are talking past each other. Per most definitions, Scandinavia only includes Sweden and Norway (and usually Denmark too), but not Finland. In English, however, it is not all that uncommon to use Scandinavia interchangeably with Nordic countries, which includes Finland.

Strange.

I was taught in school that Scandinavian countries include Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland.
 
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Theokritos

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That is strange indeed.

It's really not a rare useage of "Scandinavia" in some languages. E.g. in German too:

karte-1-1081.gif
 
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Theokritos

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Doesn't make it less strange and wrong. Like calling USA central American or Caribbean

It's purely up to definition though. Is Mexico in Central America? According to some definitions it is, according to other definitions it isn't. How exactly do you determine which definition is wrong?
 
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BraveCanadian

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All this work done and then people show up with their anecdotal opinions to rehash points already discussed for the 100th time.

Bring an actual argument that can be examined or data to support your theories, please.
 

Albatros

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Don't know how nuch of a factor popularity of ice hockey in Scandinavia is as only Sweden really produces more than the odd player there.
Who's the best player from the Scandinavian mountains then? I know Henrik Lundqvist is from Åre.
 
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Staniowski

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Yeah, Canadians and Americans (and some others) are taught that Finland is a part of Scandinavia....in fact, I think we would be more likely to consider Finland as a Scandinavian country than Denmark. When I was younger I definitely would have said Finland was in Scandinavia, but I don't now. If I associate Sweden and Finland now, it's as Nordic countries.

These kinds of things are true for other regions too. North America, for example, officially includes Central America and the Caribbean, but Canadians would never consider the Caribbean countries as part of North America. It's generally just Canada, US, Mexico. And there are some limited contexts, where it's just Canada and the US (and Mexico would be part of Latin America).

And the Middle East....if you asked 10 random people to name the countries that make up the Middle East, you'll likely get 10 different answers.
 

wetcoast

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You are talking past each other. Per most definitions, Scandinavia only includes Sweden and Norway (and usually Denmark too), but not Finland. In English, however, it is not all that uncommon to use Scandinavia interchangeably with Nordic countries, which includes Finland.
Geography is cool.
 
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sr edler

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Don't want to be too anal here but Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

This is not a matter of opinion or definition but just a very obvious historical and present fact.

The only way Finland would make sense as a Scandinavian nation is if they were still a subject of Sweden, which is why if you asked the people in the Nordic countries about it the people most opposed to the idea of Finland being a Scandinavian country would most likely be the Finns themselves.

While it's true that the outmost part of northwestern Finland is part of the Scandinavian Peninsula, this is still irrelevant in the larger picture since this is mostly an uninhabited wasteland without greater historical or political significance.
 
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sr edler

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If you want to be technical about things, then Finland isn't really a Nordic country either since they're a Finno-Ugric people speaking a Finno-Ugric language.

Iceland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden make sense as Nordic countries, and I guess the Faroe Islands as well. Finland and Estonia are Finno-Ugric countries. Latvia and Lithuania are Baltic countries.

None of this really matters much on a present day political level though since all these countries are friendly towards each other.
 

mattihp

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If you want to be technical about things, then Finland isn't really a Nordic country either since they're a Finno-Ugric people speaking a Finno-Ugric language.

Iceland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden make sense as Nordic countries, and I guess the Faroe Islands as well. Finland and Estonia are Finno-Ugric countries. Latvia and Lithuania are Baltic countries.

None of this really matters much on a present day political level though since all these countries are friendly towards each other.
If you want to be technical, the Nordic countries is a de facto organization of which Finland is part.
 
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Staniowski

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Don't want to be too anal here but Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

This is not a matter of opinion or definition but just a very obvious historical and present fact.

The only way Finland would make sense as a Scandinavian nation is if they were still a subject of Sweden, which is why if you asked the people in the Nordic countries about it the people most opposed to the idea of Finland being a Scandinavian country would most likely be the Finns themselves.

While it's true that the outmost part of northwestern Finland is part of the Scandinavian Peninsula, this is still irrelevant in the larger picture since this is mostly an uninhabited wasteland without greater historical or political significance.
It's somewhat similar to the Maritimes in Canada (where I grew up). The Maritime Provinces are the three provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI. There is no question that this is what the Maritimes consists of. Yet, a lot of people in Canada, from Quebec to BC (and probably elsewhere in the world) seem to think that Newfoundland is also part of the Maritimes. (Newfoundland and Labrador is actually the name of the province, but most Canadians have no idea what the historical connection is between the island of Newfoundland, and Labrador). Even a small number of Maritimers think Newfoundland is part of the Maritimes, but not many. I assume all Newfoundlanders (and Labradorians) know the distinction.
 
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