Estimating Gordie Howe's Even Strength impact for seasons before 1959-60

[blogofmike]

You kinda forgot the part where he skipped four years as a beginner.

Not by birthright. He practiced so much much that Wally built a rink in the backyard. In the NHL he continued to practice hard, even after practice, and Nicholls noted that the way he practiced made everyone in LA work harder.

Even in basketball, which has more to do with genetics since size is a huge factor, the guys who separate themselves from the pack are the hard workers.

Michael Jordan was legendary for adding things to his game in off-season practices, and for physically attacking teammates who weren't practicing hard enough.

Larry Bird took 700 jumpers every day, or something silly, and ran the stairs during the visiting team's practices to demoralize them by showing them how hard he was working.

Kobe Bryant shocked his Team USA teammates by how hard he practiced, and inspired them to join him. Lebron James noted this as a light bulb moment. (Kind of reminiscent of a similar story from Canada Cup 1987, no?)

Even Shaquille O'Neal, who didn't like practice and whose size was most integral to his success, won 3 rings and had his only MVP year under Phil Jackson who worked him hard (because you know, Wilt Chamberlain played 48 minutes a game. If you want to be better than him...), and Shaq won his 2006 championship under Pat Riley, who he constantly complained about over his 3-hour practices.

 

[MadLuke]

When we start bringing one of the most phenomenally gifted human in 200,000 years of history, that became overweight during phase of his professional athlete career and complained about working 3 hours a day, I feel like we are having completely different conversation.

Does anyone think there was not thousand of kids born the same years of Shaq all over the world that put as much effort in sports than him without ending up in the Top 15 goat conversation of their respective sports ?

What the percentage of the world male population that could win 2 scoring-champ, scoring over 28,000 pts, 15x time all-star in the NBA and 3xfinal MVP if they only gave the same effort that Shaq did between age 3 and 20 do people think ?, do they think it is around 60% and it is mostly about effort ? 15%, 10%, 5%, 1% ? Or 0.something percent ?

 

[Michael Farkas]

You kinda forgot the part where he skipped four years as a beginner.

I didn't forget anything, I'm having a piss at this largely untenable position where some players are magic or whatever. He was the worst player in the league at 6 and then he was historically the best player ever at 10. What do you think happened in between those times for the kid who peaked at 5'11", 170 lbs...? You think he read Harry Potter in a mirror or do you think that he was out on the rink three times a day working his ass off at his craft...?

I'm not saying that there isn't genetic predisposition to this kind of thing...there obviously is. But...I'm just...surprised at this...whatever this is...

 

[Overrated]

I didn't forget anything, I'm having a piss at this largely untenable position where some players are magic or whatever. He was the worst player in the league at 6 and then he was historically the best player ever at 10. What do you think happened in between those times for the kid who peaked at 5'11", 170 lbs...? You think he read Harry Potter in a mirror or do you think that he was out on the rink three times a day working his ass off at his craft...?

I'm not saying that there isn't genetic predisposition to this kind of thing...there obviously is. But...I'm just...surprised at this...whatever this is...

He was never the worst player in the league. The fact they even let him in speaks volumes. Just because he scored just one goal in an official game doesn't make it so. Hockey was even more physical back then I doubt he was given that much ice time in official matches as a 6 year old in a league for 10 year olds.

It's odd people have trouble with the idea of a sports prodigy. I mean would you claim that Mozart, von Neumann, Archimedes, Da Vinci etc. were just harder workers than the rest of us? This idea that anyone can be the next Jordan is completely delusional.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Bro, I'm American...do you think I have any idea who those people are?

Your last line is a strawman...I don't think anyone thinks anyone can be the next Jordan. I don't think you're realizing how hard these athletes worked to be as great as they are. There's a foundation for success or foundation for luck that's there, right? The NBA in particular is a little different because there's a 3 st.dev from the mean height requirement (more or less)...so there's definitely a genetic predisposition, as I've said...but there's a bunch of prodigy candidates that you've never heard of because they didn't apply themselves in a meaningful way...

 

[Overrated]

Bro, I'm American...do you think I have any idea who those people are?

Your last line is a strawman...I don't think anyone thinks anyone can be the next Jordan. I don't think you're realizing how hard these athletes worked to be as great as they are. There's a foundation for success or foundation for luck that's there, right? The NBA in particular is a little different because there's a 3 st.dev from the mean height requirement (more or less)...so there's definitely a genetic predisposition, as I've said...but there's a bunch of prodigy candidates that you've never heard of because they didn't apply themselves in a meaningful way...

Even if I rephrased is as any athletic 6'5+ male the point would remain. It's also much easier to put in the work and stay motivated if you're improving at a rate much higher than everyone else.

 

[Overrated]

When we start bringing one of the most phenomenal gifted human in 200,000 years of history, that became overweight during phase of his professional athlete career and complained about working 3 hours a day, I feel like we are having completely different conversation.

Does anyone think there was not thousand of kids born the same years of Shaq all over the world that put as much effort in sports than him without ending up in the Top 15 goat conversation of their respective sports ?

What the percentage of the world male population that could win 2 scoring-champ, scoring over 28,000 pts, 15x time all-star in the NBA and 3xMVP if they only gave the same effort that Shaq did between age 3 and 20 do people think ?, do they think it is around 60% and it is mostly about effort ? 15%, 10%, 5%, 1% ? Or 0.something percent ?

There are many athletes who came from absolutely nowhere. Guys like Maradona or Mike Tyson. Now compare them to the hundreds of thousands of dads who vicariously live through their sons forcing them to play from early childhood religiously putting in work, signing them to whatever academies and what not and all for nothing. Some people really have the "magic" as Mr. Farkas called it.

 

[blogofmike]

Even if I rephrased is as any athletic 6'5+ male the point would remain. It's also much easier to put in the work and stay motivated if you're improving at a rate much higher than everyone else.

There's more than one way to be a basketball superstar.

Being 6'2 hasn't hurt Steph Curry.

There are many athletes who came from absolutely nowhere. Guys like Maradona or Mike Tyson. Now compare them to the hundreds of thousands of dads who vicariously live through their sons forcing them to play from early childhood religiously putting in work, signing them to whatever academies and what not and all for nothing. Some people really have the "magic" as Mr. Farkas called it.

Training was a huge part of Mike Tyson's success. From around age 13 or 14 Tyson lived with a boxing trainer who was determined to make him the youngest heavyweight champ ever (Tyson's trainer Cus D'Amato trained the previous record holder, Floyd Patterson). He dropped out of high school to train as a boxer full-time with Cus. Training under D'Amato/Atlas/Rooney was hugely beneficial.

With less competent trainers the 35-0 22 year old phenom finishes out his career 15-5 - and half of those fights were against journeymen. In his 3rd fight after Rooney was fired a hard-partying Mike Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas (coincidentally a guy who was labelled as lazy/soft/a quitter, but trained hard here.)

 

[Overrated]

Training was a huge part of Mike Tyson's success. From around age 13 or 14 Tyson lived with a boxing trainer who was determined to make him the youngest heavyweight champ ever (Tyson's trainer Cus D'Amato trained the previous record holder, Floyd Patterson). He dropped out of high school to train as a boxer full-time with Cus. Training under D'Amato/Atlas/Rooney was hugely beneficial.

With less competent trainers the 35-0 22 year old phenom finishes out his career 15-5 - and half of those fights were against journeymen. In his 3rd fight after Rooney was fired a hard-partying Mike Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas (coincidentally a guy who was labelled as lazy/soft/a quitter, but trained hard here.)

Nobody is saying they didn't have to train. Of course they did. But Mike started relatively late and became the world champion at 19. That is natural talent at work. How hard is it to get?

 

[wetcoast]

I didn't forget anything, I'm having a piss at this largely untenable position where some players are magic or whatever. He was the worst player in the league at 6 and then he was historically the best player ever at 10. What do you think happened in between those times for the kid who peaked at 5'11", 170 lbs...? You think he read Harry Potter in a mirror or do you think that he was out on the rink three times a day working his ass off at his craft...?

I'm not saying that there isn't genetic predisposition to this kind of thing...there obviously is. But...I'm just...surprised at this...whatever this is...

This thread apparently is about Howe's ES impact but I had to read up and double check.

The hard work idea is great but to be a superstar in the NHL at the level of Howe and the big 4 there has to been an elite level of talent to begin with and the opportunity to reach that level.

It's reminds me of a story I heard Bill Gates mention that geographically he was able to travel to a university lab at the University of Washington to work on computers, had he lived 50 miles further away history could very well have been different.

I believe that his philanthropy comes from his humility in knowing his luck.

He also scored 1590 out of a possible 1600 on an SAT test and that didn't come just from hard work.

 

[overpass]

Great post.

I would suggest we can go further in estimating Howe's ESGA, especially from his peak seasons, by looking at scoring logs and which forwards scored with whom. Howe was known for his great stamina on the ice and ability to play high minutes, so it's possible he was on the ice from more than 1/3 of the play at ES. If so, he may have been on the ice for more than 1/3 of even strength goals against.

I'll take the 1950-51 season for an example. Sid Abel was Gordie Howe's regular centre at even strength. Looking at Sid Abel's scoring logs, Abel scored 50 even strength points. He combined with Howe for 38 of these points, and with Ted Lindsay for 27 points. The interesting thing is that Abel combined with no other Detroit forwards on his 50 even strength points. No double-shifting for Abel as far as we can tell. So we can start with an estimate for Abel and then build Howe's estimate from Abel's.

Let's assume that Abel played a regular shift, 33% of the ES time. Based on the scoring logs, it's a reasonable estimate that he played on the #1 line 100% of the time, and did no double shifting with any other forwards. So Abel would have 38.28 ESGA in 1950-51 as estimated by @seventieslord.

Moving to Gordie Howe, he scored 70 even strength points. He combined with Abel on 38 of those points, and with Ted Lindsay for 31 of those points. And there were 13 of those points on which he combined with other forwards (see below for the table). Based on these points, I conclude that Howe was doing some double-shifting with lower forward lines.

I don't know the exact formula to translate these 13 points to extra ice time. Let's say that Howe was playing 20% more even-strength ice time than Sid Abel, based on these 13 points. And let's say that the team allows even strength goals against in proportion to the ice time. In that case, Howe could have been on the ice for about 40% of ESGA. Here's how that would affect the on/off ratios.

1950-51 Howe (33% of ESGA): 91.5 ESGF, 38.28 ESGA, 2.39 R-ON, 1.36 R-ON
1950-51 Howe (39.6% of ESGA): 91.5 ESGA, 45.94 ESGA, 1.99 R-ON, 1.51 R-ON

Just an estimate of course but one that uses a bit more information than the simple 33% number.

Scoring logs - 1950-51 goals with Gordie Howe and lower line DET forwards
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Rk[/TD]
[TD]Date[/TD]
[TD]Tm[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Opp[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]Time[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Description[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]1950-10-28[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]CBH[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]9:14[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Red Kelly and Joe Carveth[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1950-11-08[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]BOS[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]16:28[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Ted Lindsay, assisted by Gordie Howe and Jim McFadden[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]1950-11-11[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]18:02[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Metro Prystai and Red Kelly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]1950-12-16[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]BOS[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]9:57[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Ted Lindsay and Metro Prystai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]1950-12-25[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]NYR[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]10:36[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Ted Lindsay, assisted by Gordie Howe and Leo Gravelle[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]1950-12-28[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]19:02[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Leo Reise, assisted by Metro Prystai and Gordie Howe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]1950-12-28[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]14:04[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Metro Prystai, assisted by Gordie Howe and Marty Pavelich[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]1950-12-28[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]8:24[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Ted Lindsay, assisted by Gordie Howe and Metro Prystai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]1951-01-09[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]8:02[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by George Gee, assisted by Vic Stasiuk and Gordie Howe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]1951-01-17[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]CBH[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]16:10[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Marty Pavelich and Jim McFadden[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]61[/TD]
[TD]1951-02-07[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]CBH[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]9:57[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Ted Lindsay and George Gee[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]63[/TD]
[TD]1951-02-08[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]CBH[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]10:25[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by George Gee, assisted by Gordie Howe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]1951-02-11[/TD]
[TD]DET[/TD]
[TD]@[/TD]
[TD]BOS[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0:41[/TD]
[TD]EV[/TD]
[TD]Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Glen Skov[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'll continue this off-topic digression about estimating Gordie Howe's on-ice goals in his prime.

After looking at the 51-52, 52-53, and 53-54 scoring logs, there is less evidence for Howe double-shifting in those seasons. He may have played a regular shift with maybe 5% more ice time, rather than the 20% extra ice time I suggested for 50-51.

1951-52
Sid Abel once again centred Howe and Lindsay. This was the 33 year old Abel's final season with the Wings, he would move to Chicago as a coach after this season.

Sid Abel scored 33 points at even strength. Gordie Howe also received a point on 24 of them and Ted Lindsay on 21 of them. No other Detroit forwards combined with Abel at even strength. So I'll conclude that Abel played a regular shift centering Howe and Lindsay, with no double shifting.

Abel only played 62 of 70 games. In those 8 games, it looks like Glen Skov replaced Abel on the top line. I'll look only at those 62 games played by Abel and see if Howe and Lindsay's scoring logs show any evidence of double-shifting.

In those 62 games, Howe scored 52 EV points. 32 of them included Ted Lindsay, and 24 included Sid Abel. Outside of those two linemates, in those 62 games that Howe played, he only combined on 2 EV points with different forwards. One with Glen Skov, and one with Fred Glover. And Ted Lindsay was also involved in the goal with Glover, so Glover may have been replacing Abel on the top line for a shift rather than Howe and Lindsay double-shifting.

With only 1-2 points showing evidence of Howe double-shifting at EV, I would say he probably played about 1/3 of the EV ice time, maybe 5% more at most.

Rk	Date	Tm		Opp	P	Time		Description
14	1951-11-18	DET	@	NYR	3	3:04	EV	Goal by Gordie Howe, assisted by Glen Skov and Marcel Pronovost
50	1952-02-03	DET		NYR	2	18:48	EV	Goal by Fred Glover, assisted by Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe

1952-53

With Sid Abel gone to Chicago, Metro Prystai took most of the minutes between Howe and Lindsay. However, he didn't play the full season there. Of Prystai's 41 points at even strength, he combined with the following forwards:

Gordie Howe 23
Ted Lindsay 15
Alex Delvecchio 11
Johnny Wilson 8
Reg Sinclair 1

The goals with Delvecchio and Wilson overlap, and the goals with Howe and Lindsay overlap, but there's no overlap between Delvecchio or Wilson and Howe or Lindsay. So it's clear that Prystai spent part of the season on a Lindsay-Prystai-Howe line, and part on a Delvecchio-Prystai-Wilson line. The points with Delvecchio and Wilson add to 19, and the points with Lindsay and Howe to 38, so 1/3 with Delvecchio/Wilson and 2/3 with Lindsay/Howe. Let's say Prystai played 2/3 of the time on the top line with Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe.

All of Howe, Lindsay, Prystai, Wilson, and Delvecchio played 70 GP so we can consider all 70 games when estimating from the scoring logs.

Gordie Howe scored 67 EV points. He combined with the following Detroit forwards as follows:

Ted Lindsay 40
Metro Prystai 23
Alex Delvecchio 8
Marty Pavelich 6
Reg Sinclair 2
Johnny Wilson 2
Glen Skov 1
Lou Jankowski 1

Looks like Howe played most of his time with Ted Lindsay. Is there any evidence that he played without Lindsay?

Lindsay also appears on both Howe's goals with Sinclair, and Howe's one goal with Jankowski.

Lindsay was not involved in either of Howe's goals with the winger Johnny Wilson, and Alex Delvecchio was on one of them. So I would say Howe played a little time with Johnny Wilson on LW rather than Lindsay.

Both Alex Delvecchio and Marty Pavelich appear to have spent some time centering Howe and Lindsay.

I'll say Howe had 2 goals with Wilson-Delvecchio-Howe, maybe 5% of ice time. All the rest were likely with Ted Lindsay at LW, with Prystai, Delvecchio, Pavelich, Sinclair, Skov, or Jankowski as the C.

Marty Pavelich and Ted Lindsay combined for 3 goals with just the 2 of them, and 5 goals with Howe. I'll assume that Howe was on the ice for those 3 as well, there's no evidence that any other RW was involved.

Centre with Howe/Lindsay	Points w/Howe	Percentage	Points w/Lindsay	Percentage	Average
Prystai	23​	59%​	15​	52%​	55%​
Delvecchio	6​	15%​	3​	10%​	13%​
Pavelich	6​	15%​	8​	28%​	21%​
Sinclair	2​	5%​	2​	7%​	6%​
Skov	1​	3%​	0​	0%​	1%​
Jankowski	1​	3%​	1​	3%​	3%​
Total (centres)	39​	100%​	29​	100%​	100%​

Based on these numbers, Prystai spent about 55-60% of the EV ice time between Lindsay and Howe, and the rest of the time with Delvecchio/Wilson. Prystai scored at a higher rate with Lindsay/Howe, as one would expect, getting about 2/3 of his EV points with them.

Howe appears to have played exclusively with Ted Lindsay at LW, except for 2 points with Johnny Wilson with Alex Delvecchio at C.

To me, these numbers look like Howe played a regular shift with Lindsay, plus maybe 5% extra ice time with Wilson-Delvecchio and without Lindsay. Is it possible that both Lindsay and Howe were double-shifting and playing through multiple centres? Yes, it's possible. They did play with a number of different centres. But I think the fact that Prystai played around 55-60% of their ice time and then spent a fair bit of time with Delvecchio and Wilson puts a limit on how much they could have been double shifting, assuming Prystai, Delvecchio, and Wilson were playing regular shifts. Maybe another 5-10% extra ice time with Lindsay at most, maybe none.

1953-54

This season is a bit simpler because the rookie Dutch Reibel became the regular centre for Howe and Lindsay. Reibel missed 1 game and Howe and Lindsay both played all 70 games. In the game that Reibel missed, Howe and Lindsay combined with Alex Delvecchio for a goal. I'll exclude that one goal to look only at the 69 GP played by Lindsay, Reibel, and Howe.

Of Howe's 47 even strength points, he combined with other Detroit forwards as follows:

Dutch Reibel 25
Ted Lindsay 24
Marty Pavelich 4
Glen Skov 1
Vic Stasiuk 1

Of Lindsay's 34 even strength points, he combined with other Detroit forwards as follows:

Gordie Howe 24
Dutch Reibel 21
Vic Stasiuk 2
Marty Pavelich 1
Bill Dineen 1

And of Reibel's 36 even strength points, he combined with other Detroit forwards as follows:

Gordie Howe 25
Ted Lindsay 24
Vic Stasiuk 2
Marty Pavelich 1
Bill Dineen 1

There were two goals where Lindsay/Reibel/Stasiuk combined, and one goal where Lindsay/Reibel/Dineen combined. So Lindsay and Reibel did play a bit without Howe. And Howe played a bit without them, probably about the same amount as Lindsay/Reibel without Howe based on the number of points they each had with other forwards.

I would say either all of Lindsay, Reibel, and Howe played a regular shift, or they all did about 5% extra time double shifting.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I posted this on the main board, but I'll also post it here for more visibility (because it's directly related to the topic). The question was, essentially, what would Howe's plus/minus be over the course of his entire career?

The data in table [see first post] equates to approximately +366. Add that to his official +160 from 1960 onwards, and you'd get +526. That would rank him 4th all-time (and 1st all-time among forwards, though he's essentially tied with Gretzky). Does that seem like an unreasonably high result? I don't think so:

First, the official plus/minus data only captured Howe from age 31 onwards (and he went +160 in in 921 games, or +14 per 82 games). Howe was almost certainly a better player in the 1950's (when he won five of his six Art Ross trophies, and four of his six Hart trophies). He unquestionably played on better teams (Detroit led the regular seasons standings seven times in the 1950's; they only finished first, or even second, once in the 1960's). This analysis suggests that Howe would have been about +366 over 846 games (+35 per 82 games). That's a higher rate than the official data, but this would capture his peak years, on a stronger team - it makes sense that the rate would be higher.

Second, nobody should use this to argue that Howe is greater than Gretzky. Keep in mind it took Howe an extra 280 games to reach (essentially) the same plus/minus as #99. Gretzky is ahead on a per game basis (+29 vs +24 per 82 games). At the same time - Howe was by far a better defensive player than Gretzky, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, in terms of career value, 26 seasons of Howe approaches the impact of 20 seasons of Gretzky. (The plus/minus data mirrors what makes sense in terms of their reputation - Gretzky clearly peaked higher, but Howe was an all-star level contributor for longer).

Last point - look at the all-time leaders in plus/minus. There are exceptions, but majority of them had long (15+ year careers), personally had a reputation of being a good two-way player, and generally played on strong teams. Examples of this include Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Ray Bourque, Nicklas Lidstrom, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens, Al MacInnis, Serge Savard, etc. Howe is a perfect match for the profile of the majority of players above +350.

I know this is off topic, but I agree - Howe's full career plus/minus is almost certainly north of +400, and probably above +500.

 

[daver]

Do these numbers really change the opinion of a player or do they offer slight advantages for one player over another with similar offensive resumes like % gap over teammates, quality of linemates, defensive contributions etc...

There would seem to be some needed context such as quality of one's linemates (did they play on a loaded #1 line?) and the quality of one's team.