GWT: EPL - Matchweek 9

[bluesfan94]

Whether it should have been a foul or not, the referee decided at the time that he was going to call it a foul, saw there was a chance and gave it a second or two to play out, but then blew the whistle before the second and third chances happened which is exactly what they're supposed to do in situations like that.

The whistle was blown right after Kai shot the ball. Didn’t even wait to see if it would go in the net. That’s awful officiating.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

If people aren’t willing to understand that a player kicking the ball away is more likely to get noticed if he smashes it down the field after body checking his opponent in a game that is already chippy, then there’s nothing you can really do to help them.

Like, I can’t believe we’re still going through this.

 

[hatterson]

Question - in your opinion, if no foul do you think VAR pops Havertz for hand ball either way?

Arsenal arguably made three fouls on that phase, including the one that was called. Might be a handball, also pretty sure they could have called a foul on Havertz shoving Trent.

I just think we’ve seen way worse officiating than this. Hell Utd had it worse than Arsenal this weekend alone

I didn't see a good enough replay to say conclusively, but from the broadcast angle it looked very close to the arm patch location which is theoretically not considered a handball. Who knows though. The potential foul on TAA right at the goal also would have been interesting for VAR to look at if it had been relevant.

The whistle was blown right after Kai shot the ball. Didn’t even wait to see if it would go in the net. That’s awful officiating.

Jones botches his clearance and then heads the ball up. Szobo it looking up at the ball and slightly moving to the side and back towards it to get under it, he never looks behind him or moves back into Kiwiror. Based on the way he's positioning and bracing himself it seems like he's planning on simply heading it with the back of his head out towards midfield without really jumping. He doesn't appear aware of the Arsenal player coming from behind him.

Note the natural position of his whistle hand (right) near his side.

As soon as he goes into Szobo's back, the ref stops moving his feet and brings his whistle from his side to his chest. The fact that he stops moving his feet to follow play is a very clear indication that, in his mind, active play is over and he's only holding the whistle for a half second to see if there's a potential advantage or potentially to allow Arsenal a fast snapshot.

(Note how his whistle is already raised from his side and he's not getting ready to chase that ball towards the box nor is he really following it)

He sees Kai and Konate go up to challenge for the ball. Potentially if Kai had done something special there like a weird header into a bicycle kick he holds until the ball goes in, or if the ball goes back to the keeper he just says it's advantage and lets the keeper throw it out as he sees fit, instead the ball bounced behind Kai and Konate into the area between them and the keeper. That means that both the immediate chance and the potential advantage are gone, so he decides to blow. He begins moving his whistle hand from his chest up towards his mouth simultaneously with Kai and Konate landing back on the ground. Here's a few frames after that when his whistle actually gets to his mouth:

Then a few frames later, he's even got his arm out indicating the foul:

The whistle is audibly heard at about the same time that Havertz chips the ball.

So to sum it up:
The referee saw something live he believed was a foul and all his body language indicated he was going to call it. He held his whistle for a second to see if he truly needed to blow it or he could play "advantage" and simply not have the stoppage, additionally this allowed a snap chance for Arsenal if VAR needed to get involved. That snap chance never materialized, and there was no possibility to play advantage so, while the followup Arsenal chance was still developing he blew his whistle to stop play. That is exactly what a referee is supposed to do in that situation.

Additionally, even if he had held his whistle for the entire ~7 seconds (foul occurred at 89:40 ball went in at 89:47) between the foul and the ball going in and *then* blew it to call the foul nothing would have changed. The foul call may have been a bit soft (although it's going to be called in that situation far more than it's not), but it's not a clear and obvious error that would lead VAR to potentially intervene.

 

[phisherman]

Funny how the ref experts don't talk about the non penalty call on Martin Nelly.

Funny how the wee tard thinks Trossard and Rice smashed the ball away down the field like it was a field goal.

 

[bluesfan94]

So to sum it up:
The referee saw something live he believed was a foul and all his body language indicated he was going to call it. He held his whistle for a second to see if he truly needed to blow it or he could play "advantage" and simply not have the stoppage, additionally this allowed a snap chance for Arsenal if VAR needed to get involved. That snap chance never materialized, and there was no possibility to play advantage so, while the followup Arsenal chance was still developing he blew his whistle to stop play. That is exactly what a referee is supposed to do in that situation.

I can't find any official guidelines, but to me, if the idea is to wait to allow for VAR, blowing as the chance was taken is goofy. It's goofy to have such a gap between what is allowed to play out for VAR with offside and what is allowed to play out for VAR with a foul.

Additionally, even if he had held his whistle for the entire ~7 seconds (foul occurred at 89:40 ball went in at 89:47) between the foul and the ball going in and *then* blew it to call the foul nothing would have changed. The foul call may have been a bit soft (although it's going to be called in that situation far more than it's not), but it's not a clear and obvious error that would lead VAR to potentially intervene.

This is rather presumptuous, given what VAR has chosen to intervene or not intervene on. VAR shouldn't have intervened with the Saliba red, but once it did, it should have intervened for the Tosin yellow and the VDV yellow. It shouldn't have intervened for the De Ligt penalty, but once it did, it should have intervened for the Konate clearing out Martinelli in the first half. It's incredibly inconsistent.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I can't find any official guidelines, but to me, if the idea is to wait to allow for VAR, blowing as the chance was taken is goofy. It's goofy to have such a gap between what is allowed to play out for VAR with offside and what is allowed to play out for VAR with a foul.

This is rather presumptuous, given what VAR has chosen to intervene or not intervene on. VAR shouldn't have intervened with the Saliba red, but once it did, it should have intervened for the Tosin yellow and the VDV yellow. It shouldn't have intervened for the De Ligt penalty, but once it did, it should have intervened for the Konate clearing out Martinelli in the first half. It's incredibly inconsistent.

aaaaand this is where it becomes clear that you're incapable of dealing with this rationally, and time is being wasted by all interlocutors

 

[bluesfan94]

aaaaand this is where it becomes clear that you're incapable of dealing with this rationally, and time is being wasted by all interlocutors

Chelsea fan thinks call that benefitted Chelsea was right? Also breaking this morning, the Pope? Catholic.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Chelsea fan thinks call that benefitted Chelsea was right? Also breaking this morning, the Pope? Catholic.

And yet, the Liverpool fan who liked my post would be perfectly positioned to think that Tosin should've seen red, wouldn't he be? Given that his team would've been up against 10 men for 85 minutes had it been given?

Every one I've seen mad that Tosin only got yellow has been an Arsenal fan - Liverpool fans did not contest that call.

EDIT: needlessly provocative

 

[bluesfan94]

And yet, the Liverpool fan who liked my post would be perfectly positioned to think that Tosin should've seen red, wouldn't he be? Given that his team would've been up against 10 men for 85 minutes had it been given?

Every single whiny little baby I've seen crying about Tosin getting yellow has been an Arsenal fan - Liverpool fans did not contest that call.

I bet if Liverpool had lost that game, there'd be a different conversation happening. Not to mention the whole conversation is in context of "Should the winning goal Arsenal put into the net have counted or would VAR bail out Liverpool?" So yeah, no, the Liverpool fan would have incentive to say VAR wouldn't have intervened in this situation, too, and ignore how shitty VAR has been just through 9 matchweeks.

Regardless, drop that example and just use the VDV example and the point still holds, but rather than actually engage with that, you've turned to name calling. Is that the rational conversation you're looking for?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I bet if Liverpool had lost that game, there'd be a different conversation happening. Not to mention the whole conversation is in context of "Should the winning goal Arsenal put into the net have counted or would VAR bail out Liverpool?" So yeah, no, the Liverpool fan would have incentive to say VAR wouldn't have intervened in this situation, too, and ignore how shitty VAR has been just through 9 matchweeks.

Regardless, drop that example and just use the VDV example and the point still holds, but rather than actually engage with that, you've turned to name calling. Is that the rational conversation you're looking for?

The possibility went out the window when Arsenal fans online went fully off the deep end. It's even worse on Instagram than it is here. And, btw, I edited my post right before you replied.

Manchester United lost yesterday (and a man lost his job ) because of one of the worst penalty calls I've ever seen, and yet we're on page 17,000 attempting to reason with the unreasonable about why a goal was correctly not given, and every issue Arsenal has with refereeing decisions inevitably has to come back to a growing tome filled with grievances, gripes, and guffaws complaining that "tHiS waSn'T calLed HeRe" (in contexts which are different) and tin-foil hat conspiracy theories about how the deck is stacked against one of the biggest clubs in the country.

Btw, Ismaila Sarr is running towards the corner, not towards goal. The other Spurs defender is in the middle. It boggles the mind that Arsenal fans are clinging to Saliba having not been a red. It's about as obvious a DOGSO as it gets. It'd be like if I complained about the red Christensen got against Liverpool a few years ago.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Also, just as a side thought (irrelevant to the question of the correct refereeing decisions which closed yesterday's game)

Has it crossed the mind of any Arsenal fan that maybe they're getting treated a little more harshly on some of these things because they've actively cultivated a reputation for "dark arts" and shithousery? And so refs are fed up with it? Or more tuned in to keep an eye out? Similar to how players with reputations for diving eventually end up getting fewer penalties?

If I were an Arsenal fan, that is what I would be wondering.

 

[bluesfan94]

The possibility went out the window when Arsenal fans online went fully off the deep end. It's even worse on Instagram than it is here. And, btw, I edited my post right before you replied.

Manchester United lost yesterday (and a man lost his job ) because of one of the worst penalty calls I've ever seen, and yet we're on page 17,000 attempting to reason with the unreasonable about why a goal was correctly not given, and every issue Arsenal has with refereeing decisions inevitably has to come back to a growing tome filled with grievances, gripes, and guffaws complaining that "tHiS waSn'T calLed HeRe" (in contexts which are different) and tin-foil hat conspiracy theories about how the deck is stacked against one of the biggest clubs in the country.

Btw, Ismaila Sarr is running towards the corner, not towards goal. The other Spurs defender is in the middle. It boggles the mind that Arsenal fans are clinging to Saliba having not been a red. It's about as obvious a DOGSO as it gets. It'd be like if I complained about the red Christensen got against Liverpool a few years ago.

If anything, if we did go off the deep end, it should make it easier for us to converse with Chelsea, Liverpool, United, etc. fans; we're down there with you.

You'll notice that I called out that De Ligt example as one of the errors. You've completely made up any conspiracy theory I've posted, too. I guess it's just more rational, levelheaded conversation from you.

You'll notice that I also didn't complain about it being a red. It really is difficult to have rational conversation when you just make things up.

Also, just as a side thought (irrelevant to the question of the correct refereeing decisions which closed yesterday's game)

Has it crossed the mind of any Arsenal fan that maybe they're getting treated a little more harshly on some of these things because they've actively cultivated a reputation for "dark arts" and shithousery? And so refs are fed up with it? Or more tuned in to keep an eye out? Similar to how players with reputations for diving eventually end up getting fewer penalties?

If I were an Arsenal fan, that is what I would be wondering.

They haven't actively cultivated it, it's been thrust upon them through the media. And apparently you've fallen victim to it, which, I guess, comes as no shock.

 

[Savant]

And yet, the Liverpool fan who liked my post would be perfectly positioned to think that Tosin should've seen red, wouldn't he be? Given that his team would've been up against 10 men for 85 minutes had it been given?

Every one I've seen mad that Tosin only got yellow has been an Arsenal fan - Liverpool fans did not contest that call.

EDIT: needlessly provocative

I bet if Liverpool had lost that game, there'd be a different conversation happening. Not to mention the whole conversation is in context of "Should the winning goal Arsenal put into the net have counted or would VAR bail out Liverpool?" So yeah, no, the Liverpool fan would have incentive to say VAR wouldn't have intervened in this situation, too, and ignore how shitty VAR has been just through 9 matchweeks.

Regardless, drop that example and just use the VDV example and the point still holds, but rather than actually engage with that, you've turned to name calling. Is that the rational conversation you're looking for?

Tosin got the yellow card in the 6th minute when the game was 0-0. So people were saying they had no problem with the Tosin yellow when it happened. So I don’t think you can go and say “if LFC lost….” When the reaction in real time was that people didn’t think it was red.

If Ben White kicked Mo Salah, I don’t think Liverpool fans (or Arsenal fans) would have been crying about Ben White not getting a card, like Arsenal fans are claiming Virgil should have gotten a card for Havertz diving after a game of Footsy

Also, just as a side thought (irrelevant to the question of the correct refereeing decisions which closed yesterday's game)

Has it crossed the mind of any Arsenal fan that maybe they're getting treated a little more harshly on some of these things because they've actively cultivated a reputation for "dark arts" and shithousery? And so refs are fed up with it? Or more tuned in to keep an eye out? Similar to how players with reputations for diving eventually end up getting fewer penalties?

If I were an Arsenal fan, that is what I would be wondering.

The funny part about this, is this is what everyone was been saying about the Liverpool fans the last 3-4 years. And generally the difference has been the LFC fans complaining about calls that were outright wrong/prompted apologies from PGMOL and the Arsenal fan are just basically complaining about correct to 50/50 calls basically just because they aren’t in their favor.

Arsenal are basically having the same start LFC had last season except worse, and with LFC having gotten more red cards.

 

[bluesfan94]

Tosin got the yellow card in the 6th minute when the game was 0-0. So people were saying they had no problem with the Tosin yellow when it happened. So I don’t think you can go and say “if LFC lost….” When the reaction in real time was that people didn’t think it was red.

If Ben White kicked Mo Salah, I don’t think Liverpool fans (or Arsenal fans) would have been crying about Ben White not getting a card, like Arsenal fans are claiming Virgil should have gotten a card for Havertz diving after a game of Footsy


The funny part about this, is this is what everyone was been saying about the Liverpool fans the last 3-4 years. And generally the difference has been the LFC fans complaining about calls that were outright wrong/prompted apologies from PGMOL and the Arsenal fan are just basically complaining about correct to 50/50 calls basically just because they aren’t in their favor.

A game of footsy? Lol. With that logic, Doku was just stretching against Mac Allister last season.

If we wanted to be on Liverpool's level, we'd start looking at every ref's birthplace and star sign and assign meaning to that.

 

[hatterson]

Regarding VVD, no red is pretty consistent with how the PL has interpreted violent conduct. It's deeply stupid, but it's consistent.

If you move your head a millimeter towards an opponent, that's violent conduct, but if you swipe him with your foot like that it's almost always considered reckless vs violent and a yellow would be awarded which means VAR wouldn't intervene.

That said, if the ref awards a red live, VAR almost for sure doesn't overturn it, but they're also not going to intervene to proactively give one. It's basically always left with the on field decision.

 

[Chimaera]

Also, just as a side thought (irrelevant to the question of the correct refereeing decisions which closed yesterday's game)

Has it crossed the mind of any Arsenal fan that maybe they're getting treated a little more harshly on some of these things because they've actively cultivated a reputation for "dark arts" and shithousery? And so refs are fed up with it? Or more tuned in to keep an eye out? Similar to how players with reputations for diving eventually end up getting fewer penalties?

If I were an Arsenal fan, that is what I would be wondering.

They have a team and manager who have more or less said they want to make it scruffy. They try to time waste or kick it out. They consistently hunt set pieces.

I think the ref was decent, though that’s not always the case. Consistency is my issue. Over the long haul things somewhat even out, but it’s tough in the moment when a possible yellow gets a red. Honestly, more often then not, saying so and so should be off and not on is a fools comment. I rather the match be settled 11 v 11, if at all possible, minus ridiculous attempt to injure.

The VVD was stupid, but I don’t know if it was a red.

 

[Savant]

A game of footsy? Lol. With that logic, Doku was just stretching against Mac Allister last season.

I think you need to compare leg placement on that.

If we wanted to be on Liverpool's level, we'd start looking at every ref's birthplace and star sign and assign meaning to that.

You say this like Arsenal fans didn’t do this to Jarred Gillett after the Bournemouth game

 

[luiginb]

They haven't actively cultivated it, it's been thrust upon them through the media. And apparently you've fallen victim to it, which, I guess, comes as no shock.

You know you employ Ben White, right?

 

[bluesfan94]

You know you employ Ben White, right?

Okay? Is he the only EPL player to ever engage in "dark arts"? And those same actions are described as "clever" when other teams do them.

 

[KJS14]

Hate to (but also love to) revisit this after a busy week of work.

If people aren’t willing to understand that a player kicking the ball away is more likely to get noticed if he smashes it down the field after body checking his opponent in a game that is already chippy, then there’s nothing you can really do to help them.

Like, I can’t believe we’re still going through this.

1) It shouldn't matter how far you kick the ball away. You're delaying the restart either way, so "letter of the law" or whatever bullshit Arsenal fans got told for weeks. Except "letter of the law" doesn't really seem to be followed outside of 3-4 cases among hundreds.

2) This directly contradicts the Rice second yellow card then (and that's ignoring the fact that it wasn't even a legal attempt to take a quick FK).

Also, just as a side thought (irrelevant to the question of the correct refereeing decisions which closed yesterday's game)

Has it crossed the mind of any Arsenal fan that maybe they're getting treated a little more harshly on some of these things because they've actively cultivated a reputation for "dark arts" and shithousery? And so refs are fed up with it? Or more tuned in to keep an eye out? Similar to how players with reputations for diving eventually end up getting fewer penalties?

If I were an Arsenal fan, that is what I would be wondering.

As already mentioned, the media is drumming up the "dark arts" reputation, not the club. But we score too many goals from corners now and had the best defense in the league last year, so it must be dark arts. City get away with committing cynical fouls without the dark arts reputation, but god forbid Arsenal use time wasting tactics against City with a lead and down to 10 men (where the ball was actually in play for the most time of any half this season).

You know you employ Ben White, right?

Okay? Is he the only EPL player to ever engage in "dark arts"? And those same actions are described as "clever" when other teams do them.

When Ben White stands next to a goalkeeper on corners and gets called for fouls 50% of the time for no good reason it's "dark arts". But when it's Bernardo Silva backing into the wolves goalkeeper and then ducks down on a game winning goal it's smart/cerebral play.

 

[hatterson]

If you're unable to see a difference in what Ben White does on corners versus what Silva did on that corner then....wow...you need to get psychiatric help.