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Epic Calder Race 2024-25

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StrawHatEklund said:
You’re the one cherry picking a game to make your point. Besides, it was originally a Habs fan who brought up yesterday’s games to bait the Sharks and denigrate Celebrini. Afterwards, I was talking about their performances in general. Not single game performances.
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I'm using a single game performance to refute your point because the only thing that supported your point was a single game performance. Keep up.
 
StrawHatEklund said:
Yes, that’s for the entire season. If you look at their PP TOI numbers over the last 15-20 games it’s closer
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Yeah, and for the first 30 or so games of the season, Hutson was the the second power play unit with a heavily struggling Kirby Dach, Josh Anderson and Brendan Gallagher.

You want to pretend that Celebrini has nobody to play with on the PP and simultaneously pretend that Hutson has been dishing the puck to Patrik Laine and Cole Caufield with the man advantage all season.

You also claim that San Jose's power play isn't nearly as good as Montreal's while conveniently leaving out that Montreal's PP improved this season in large part because of Lane Hutson.
 
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StrawHatEklund said:
Celebrini is tied with Toffoli on PP points despite playing 12 less games and only trails Granlund by 4 PP points despite 10 less games.
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And Hutson leads his team in PP points, despite only being on the #1 PP for half the season. This would indicate that Montreal's PP is benefitting from him, rather than him benefitting from the PP.

All you've succeeded in pointing out is that Hutson is a far better PP driver than Celebrini. Cool, thanks.
 
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JIMVINNY said:
I'm using a single game performance to refute your point because the only thing that supported your point was a single game performance. Keep up.
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Stop reaching. I used that performance to make my original point after a Habs fan used it to denigrate Celebrini. But afterwards, I never used a single game performance to speak about Hutson. Only averages and totals.
 
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FerrisRox said:
Yeah, and for the first 30 or so games of the season, Hutson was the the second power play unit with a heavily struggling Kirby Dach, Josh Anderson and Brendan Gallagher.

You want to pretend that Celebrini has nobody to play with on the PP and simultaneously pretend that Hutson has been dishing the puck to Patrik Laine and Cole Caufield with the man advantage all season.

You also claim that San Jose's power play isn't nearly as good as Montreal's while conveniently leaving out that Montreal's PP improved this season in large part because of Lane Hutson.
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And Celebrini has been playing with Granlund, Wennberg, Eklund and Toffoli as most of his PP1? Should that be some boost in his favor? He even got some recent PP time with guys outside this group. I love Eklund but Granlund and Wennberg are just not top line players on a good team while Eklund is still developing. Toffoli is a middle 6 winger at this point.

Celebrini doesn’t have any elite PPG linemates on his line let alone the PP. Hutson has 2 on his line + a 3rd PP specialist in Laine. And you’re gonna ignore the addition of Laine improving it too?
 
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StrawHatEklund said:
And Celebrini has been playing with Granlund, Wennberg, Eklund and Toffoli as most of his PP1? Should that be some boost in his favor? He even got some recent PP time with guys outside this group.

Celebrini doesn’t have any elite PPG linemates on his line let alone the PP. Hutson has 2 on his line + a 3rd PP specialist in Laine. And you’re gonna ignore the addition of Laine improving it too?


So how many 40% or less 5 vs 5 point seasons does MacKinnon have the ?
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While Laine definitely improved it, a big reason why he's open so often is because teams are collapsing down to take away the slot passes (which Hutson leads all defensemen in).
 
FerrisRox said:
Maybe it's "discounted in this thread" because other people realize who dumb it is to claim that the Canadiens top scorer on the power play (despite only spending half of the season so far on #1 unit) is likely benefiting other players, rather than vice versa?

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you are claiming Hutson is "getting a boost" from playing with guys on the power play that he's outscoring? Wouldn't logic suggest that they are getting a boost from playing with the teams leading PP point getter?

It's just common sense. It's okay to admit you're wrong. It's okay to admit you don't know what you are talking about.

Sometimes its better to remain quiet and have people think you're a fool rather than open your mouth and leave no doubt.
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I guess it's difficult to rationalize that all of the top line/top PP line could be benefitting from playing with one another? Who would have thought a PP sniper benefits from passes from the likes of Hutson, Caulfield and Suzuki and they didn't rack up assists from his goals?

No, this line of reasoning is incomprehensible. It just all be from Hutson. It's okay to admit you want to prop up Huston so much you're willing to even downplay the ability of his top linemates. Nice personal attack there at the end. Like the 3rd or 4th one from you guys today.
 
StrawHatEklund said:
The point is Celebrini’s stats suffer from being on a poor Sharks team with a mediocre PP. Hutson’s are boosted playing with guys like Caulfield and Suzuki and Laine on the PP.
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It's so weird, cause last year, Montreal had Caufield and Suzuki on their power play, and it was well under 20 percent. How is that possible with those elite players?

This year, it's so much better, and it can't be all because of Patrik Laine, he's barely played ten games.

What could be different this year from last that suddenly Caufield and Suzuki are so good they could prop up some rookie who's feeding off their elite power play talent?

I guess it's a mystery.
 
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FerrisRox said:
It's so weird, cause last year, Montreal had Caufield and Suzuki on their power play, and it was well under 20 percent. How is that possible with those elite players?

This year, it's so much better, and it can't be all because of Patrik Laine, he's barely played ten games.

What could be different this year from last that suddenly Caufield and Suzuki are so good they could prop up some rookie who's feeding off their elite power play talent?

I guess it's a mystery.
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So, Montreal is a few % points better at 21.4% but it's all Hutson right? Not Caulfield and Suzuki also playing better in addition to adding a sniper like Laine? It's just coincidence that Hutson took off in late November right (wonder who also joined the team?) and Laine has played 15 games? Where did you get barely 10?
 
StrawHatEklund said:
So, Montreal is a few % points better at 21.4% but it's all Hutson right? Not Caulfield and Suzuki also playing better in addition to adding a sniper like Laine? It's just coincidence that Hutson took off in late November right (wonder who also joined the team?) and Laine has played 15 games? Where did you get barely 10?
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Hutson leads the team in PP points despite playing half the year on PP2 with Gallagher, Anderson, Dvorak, and Dach so I'd say yes it's him driving it
 
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SannywithoutCompy said:
Hutson leads the team in PP points despite playing half the year on PP2 with Gallagher, Anderson, Dvorak, and Dach so I'd say yes it's him driving it
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Laine also has 10 goals in 15 games of which many are on the PP. He was a huge boost to the top PP line's assist numbers when he plays. Huston might drive it but they all are benefitting from one another.
 
StrawHatEklund said:
Laine also has 10 goals in 15 games of which many are on the PP. He was a huge boost to the top PP line's assist numbers when he plays. Huston might drive it but they all are benefitting from one another.
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Yeah, and again, I don't think anyone is discounting Laine's impact but I'm not really sure what the point of all this is - Hutson and Celebrini are both elite players, it's basically a coin toss between them but Hutson has been trending higher in the last 22 games or so
 
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FerrisRox said:
Yeah, and for the first 30 or so games of the season, Hutson was the the second power play unit with a heavily struggling Kirby Dach, Josh Anderson and Brendan Gallagher.
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Before Laine came back Hutson had 2:24 PP TOI good for 6th on the team. (not going to include the 2 games of ABB)

Dach indeed was playing more than Hutson and Gallagher was 8th with 1:51 and Anderson was 16th with an average of 5 seconds of PP TOI per game so there's some nuance here.

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NHL Stats

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As for actual production on the PP, the whole team was crappy before the return of Laine as outlined below.

www.nhl.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
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FerrisRox said:
You want to pretend that Celebrini has nobody to play with on the PP and simultaneously pretend that Hutson has been dishing the puck to Patrik Laine and Cole Caufield with the man advantage all season.
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The actual argument should be the quality of TOI of Hutson compared to Celebrini/Michkov ect... but then again I'm not sure how much voters put into that metric and frankly no one here does.
FerrisRox said:
You also claim that San Jose's power play isn't nearly as good as Montreal's while conveniently leaving out that Montreal's PP improved this season in large part because of Lane Hutson.
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Kind of like you want to pretend that the Habs power play improvement isn't in large part due to the return of Laine?

He has 9 PPG since December 3rd which leads the league by 3 and if your claim were plausible that you put in italics why wasn't that increase there before?

But keep on going with the claim that others are only stat watching, at least they are bringing some actual stats eh?
 
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As with Michkov before him, I am more than happy to concede that Hutson is the better PP player than Celebrini right now.

Celebrini is far and away the best even strength rookie, and it's not debatable.
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils said:
www.nhl.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com www.nhl.com
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Not sure why ESPN app hasn't updated it. They must not have added 1 Toffoli's 2nd assist from yesterday. Regardless, I would argue Celebrini is the better PP player than Toffoli with 1 less point in 12 less games. It's a tossup between Granlund and Celebrini since Granlund has 4 more PP points in 10 more games.
 
Juxtaposer said:
As with Michkov before him, I am more than happy to concede that Hutson is the better PP player than Celebrini right now.

Celebrini is far and away the best even strength rookie, and it's not debatable.
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I don't know that I'd agree it isn't debatable. Hutson is pretty much on track to tie the rookie record for ESP for defensemen which isn't anything to sneeze at.
 
Both Celebrini and Hutson are much more than basic stats. They also play entirely different positions. Comparison by mere number crunching is an exercise in futility when it comes to these young phenoms.

No way an objective observer who watches a lot of both Habs and SJ games can come to the conclusion at this point in the season that either player is more deserving of the Calder than the other. It's a complete crapshoot as of now.
 
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