Saying Hutson is playing good enough to win the Calder, and even saying he may win it, is in no way a slam on Celebrini. The kid is a future superstar IMO. Talent, grit, and intangibles that will make him a Stevie Y level talent in this league.
Epic Calder Race 2024-25
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Grate n Colorful Oz
Pure Laine Hutson
One is a forward, the other is a dman. One should produce a lot more than the other, but doesn't. 0.10 ppg difference is really small when you consider their respective positions.
I think we are looking at this from the wrong angle. We are trying to pin forwards to dman to goalies.
Let’s look at them from the perspective of global ranking position per position.
Total points;
Hutson is 8th is for Dman.
Celebrini is 82nd for F
Michkov is 81st for F.
PPG;
Hutson is 9th (some bro played one game and above Hutson so it’s 8th)
Celebrini is 48th (give or take a couple of spots given low game counts for others)
Michkov is 99th (same caveat as Celebrini)
Only looking at points this way kinda gives some perspective on what Hutson is doing.
Let’s look at them from the perspective of global ranking position per position.
Total points;
Hutson is 8th is for Dman.
Celebrini is 82nd for F
Michkov is 81st for F.
PPG;
Hutson is 9th (some bro played one game and above Hutson so it’s 8th)
Celebrini is 48th (give or take a couple of spots given low game counts for others)
Michkov is 99th (same caveat as Celebrini)
Only looking at points this way kinda gives some perspective on what Hutson is doing.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Actually, there problem is their eyes were never part of the equation at all.
There are already dough heads claiming that Hutson has "improved" so much as a hilarious excuse for their previous moronic takes. Hutson's stats have improved, but he was playing outstanding hockey and showcasing jaw-dropping skill from the very start of the season.
All of the bozos that were claiming he was "bad defensively" clearly never watched him play. Many of them pointed to his plus/minus as "proof" and then suddenly got quiet or disappeared when it was pointed out that he was on the ice for eight empty goals against.
These guys never watched him play, or only saw him play a game versus 'their' team. It was patently obvious they were simply looking at stats and then forming an opinion.
One of the strangest things about this place is how there are always some people that don't let not having a clue what they are talking about stop them from rambling on authoritatively about something, and, better yet, they will argue with the people that *do* watch the player.
I have seen Macklin Celebrini play four games this year. The idea that I would start arguing about the skills, merits and weakness of Celebrini with Sharks fans who have seen every game of his NHL career is beyond stupid. I would have to be a total idiot to do that.
No way I take Cooley over Hutson. Cooley is really good (I wanted the Habs to take him 1OA) but Hutson is a rarer beast
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Hutson is actually 6th for Defenseman, one point back of Theodore,
Hutson 117 Celebrini 113.
Keep in mind (or don’t if you just want to sell a point to others or yourself) that for Hutson half those minutes were on an atrocious PP2 (Gallagher, Armia, Newhook, Heineman)
Like I said 20-25 games ago in this thread, this race changed entirely when Hutson was given PP1 and even more when they started playing him with Matheson.
I said then that Hutson had a shot at PPG until the end of the season and got mocked in here. He’s like 24 in 22 since.
- Dec 5, 2005
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In my mind, all 4 will become star players.
Hutson has #1 potential (or end up being a really good #2)
Celibrini has no only #1 center potential, but a damn good one. Well rounded, he will be a top 10 center in the league for years to come. Arguments could be made that he goes before Bedard
Michkov had adjustments to make and playing under Torts ain't easy for a young forward like him, but he has so much talent. I didn't see enough of him to make a statement on his work ethic.
Wolf is probably the most underrated rookie, by far. He's the main reason why the Flames aren't a bottom 5 team this season. a .916 save % on that team is simply crazy (Vladar is at .889). I get that the Flames doesn't play him more in his first season, but he has superstar potential.
Hutson has #1 potential (or end up being a really good #2)
Celibrini has no only #1 center potential, but a damn good one. Well rounded, he will be a top 10 center in the league for years to come. Arguments could be made that he goes before Bedard
Michkov had adjustments to make and playing under Torts ain't easy for a young forward like him, but he has so much talent. I didn't see enough of him to make a statement on his work ethic.
Wolf is probably the most underrated rookie, by far. He's the main reason why the Flames aren't a bottom 5 team this season. a .916 save % on that team is simply crazy (Vladar is at .889). I get that the Flames doesn't play him more in his first season, but he has superstar potential.
It seems like I don't need to answer then since you want to speak for me?
Along with this guy,
Hutson has obviously closed some of the gap and the Habs have been on quite a run but some of the hyperbole used then and even more now is ridiculous and when he cools down it will turn to he's just unlucky ect, ect ect.
Hutson is producing but he is also playing with much better players, ie his partner Mathieson and the top unit.
I haven't watched every minute of every rookie play and I seriously doubt that many here posting have either but I won't speak for you or others except to say that in hockey one can goo look at 3 or 4 different game reports from people who actually watched the game and follow the team, ie broadcasters and one will often find a different 3 star selection so sometimes people see what they want to see and that goes both ways.
I have seen both players in around a half dozen full games and read a lot about hockey and watch clips and Celebrini plays a more complete game with lesser players.
How the voters will view the race depends on how things go down the stretch obviously and the gap ahs been closed but like I said up post get ready for the excuses when the Habs go into a funk and the points don't come as easy much like when Michkov was struggling but has now basically fallen out of the race for all intensive purposes.
As for Hutsons defensive game, he has been playing extremely sheltered minutes during this hot stretch and Celebrini for a rookie much less so but in fairness to Hutson the actual voters probably won't consider this fact very much.
it will be an interesting race to watch and hopefully you continue to be gracious in your posts like many Sharks fans with balanced and thoughtful posts throughout this thread than handful of somewhat enthusiastic Habs fans and of course your enlightening fact based posts as well.
Just Linda
Registered User
- Feb 24, 2018
- 6,903
- 6,920
There's the counter argument in that.
Take a guy from my team. I watch him 82 games a year, every season. I know his subtleties, I know his strengths, I know every detail of his game. I know the value he brings to the team and I can justify his flaws better. Compare him to a guy who plays the similar role on another team, of course I'm over rating my guy vs that other guy.
Others might not be the best evaluation of his individual skills or abilities but they are a better judge of his comparable skills.
Individual fans are the worst evaluators of their own teams.
nobody is speaking for you, you've done plenty yourself. I just sit back and laugh at how obnoxiously wrong you were not even a week ago.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
StrawHatEklund
Registered User
That’s not the point. Who is producing more 5 vs 5 vs on the PP/4 vs 4/3 vs 3. That’s what I’m curious about since he noted that Celebrini actually averages higher PP TOI.
Though, none of this takes into account Sharks are a worse PP team and also have less offensive options in general as a worse team overall. Hutson gets a lot of time Caulfield and Suzuki. Or Laine on the PP. Celebrini doesn’t have someone to boost his offensive production to play with consistently.
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cmon @
Its been 43 games of posters saying what they want to believe about Hutson. They don't watch, they don't want to watch. The thought of Hutson being as good as he is bothers them so they type things that give them comfort. Its f***ing weird but fans are weird.
StrawHatEklund
Registered User
Yes, that’s for the entire season. If you look at their PP TOI numbers over the last 15-20 games it’s closer (though 36 extra seconds on a much worse PP isn’t gonna help too much). Though, due to games missed for Celebrini, I believe Hutson has more overall PP time.
I also asked to compare their 5 vs 5 production but that was ignored? Why? I don’t believe it’s even close in terms of production. Sharks are a much worse team and have a mediocre PP so Celebrini doesn’t really rack up PP points.
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StrawHatEklund
Registered User
So, Hutson gets PP1 time with better linemates and also has better linemates in general for 5 vs 5?
On the other hand, Celebrini plays with worse linemates in general than Hutson. He doesn’t play with any Caulfield or Suzuki PPG talent. Rather, only occasionally with Eklund or Granlund on PP. His typical linemates are usually Toffoli, Smith and Goodrow, More recently it has included Kovalenko and Graf at times with Eklund mixed in.
Grate n Colorful Oz
Pure Laine Hutson
Well from that other post you quoted from me, it's the same point.
You need to realize that the rookie dman record for ESP is 40 points while the centerman record is 76 points. Lane is 19 points away from his positional record, while Macklin is 54 points away. It is normal that a dman would produce less at ES. The fact Macklin has a better ESPPG means nothing because he's a center and the other guy is a dman.
Most ESP for a forward is MacK at 50 rn. Best dman is Werenski at 30.
StrawHatEklund
Registered User
I was looking at 5 vs 5 production. Not ESP specifically. That includes the 4 vs 4 and 3 vs 3 points that Hutson racks up. Michkov is probably the rookie expert at it. Hutson’s stats look noticeably less stellar at pure 5 vs 5 hockey.
Grate n Colorful Oz
Pure Laine Hutson
17 of his 21 ES points are at 5v5.
He had only 4 points at 4v4 + 3v3
Keep digging
StrawHatEklund
Registered User
Or perhaps Hutson just isn’t as productive at 5 vs 5 even strength hockey? Less than 50% of his points are from 5 vs 5? That isn’t digging. It’s just reality. For Celebrini, 71% of his points are from ES and more than 60% are from pure 5 vs 5. He can’t rack up PP points when our PP is mediocre and he’s has no PPG talent or PP expert to play with.
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I don't know why you would that's a question you need to ask yourself since you brought it up right?
