Epic Calder Race 2024-25

[Adam Warlock]

This is not a valid argument to determine which of the players are better on the ice in the actual games played, just your opinion (excuse).

Celebrini is just the best player of the two. Thats it. Michkov is a good young player who will be the franchise star forward in Philly, hes certainly not better than Celebrini who plays with infinitely worse talent on the Sharks. There are no guys like Konecny, Sanheim, or York over there helping him.

Again I am not debating which player is better. As a Flyers fan, I am trying to shed light on how disfunctional their team is, esp when it comes to developing young players.

When I say Celebrini would be benched and scratched if he was on the Flyers, I am not criticizing Celebrini...im criticizing how dumb the Flyers are that theyd do that to a player of his caliber.

The Flyers may have better players but it is not a better situation for a rookie. Michkov is being coached by Rocky Thompson...the guy the Sharks fired for taking off his shirt and trying to fight Kane. A literal lunatic.

Be thankful Celebrini is in an evironment he can thrive in. Matvei certainly isnt.

 

[Revansky]

I think if Montreal makes the playoffs.. it's going to be a lot closer than you think.

Yeah i agree. Didn't expect to be back in the mix after the florida trip !

 

[Boonk]

Again I am not debating which player is better. As a Flyers fan, I am trying to shed light on how disfunctional their team is, esp when it comes to developing young players.

When I say Celebrini would be benched and scratched if he was on the Flyers, I am not criticizing Celebrini...im criticizing how dumb the Flyers are that theyd do that to a player of his caliber.

The Flyers may have better players but it is not a better situation for a rookie. Michkov is being coached by Rocky Thompson...the guy the Sharks fired for taking off his shirt and trying to fight Kane. A literal lunatic.

Be thankful Celebrini is in an evironment he can thrive in. Matvei certainly isnt.

Celebrini would be Phillys 1C and would easily be more important than Michkov on that roster, hed have more points playing with Konecny as his wing and the better depth on that team. The current Sharks team hes on is dogwater compared to Philly and is actually not an environment most NHL rookies would succeed in to the degree he has. Case in point, his teammate and fellow rookie peer Will Smith, who was drafted ahead of Michkov, is pacing for around 30~pts on this Sharks season, if hes lucky and doesnt keep struggling.

Hes just better than Michkov and thats it. It has nothing to do with this excuse of Torts being this "Rocky Thompson" esque coach who punishes players not producing/playing well or whatever culture is there in Philly.

 

[CaptainShark]

Celebrini would be Phillys 1C and would easily be more important than Michkov on that roster, hed have more points playing with Konecny as his wing and the better depth on that team. The current Sharks team hes on is dogwater compared to Philly and is actually not an environment most NHL rookies would succeed in to the degree he has. Case in point, his teammate and fellow rookie peer Will Smith, who was drafted ahead of Michkov, is pacing for around 30~pts on this Sharks season, if hes lucky and doesnt keep struggling.

Hes just better than Michkov and thats it. It has nothing to do with this excuse of Torts being this "Rocky Thompson" esque coach who punishes players not producing/playing well or whatever culture is there in Philly.

That Will Smith argument is ridiculous.

Michkov was and is the better prospect despite Will being drafted ahead of him. Furthermore Michkov was rightfully deemed NHL ready while everybody knew, Will is not close to that.

 

[zombie kopitar]

Hes just better than Michkov and thats it. It has nothing to do with this excuse of Torts being this "Rocky Thompson" esque coach who punishes players not producing/playing well or whatever culture is there in Philly.

Yeah the thing is Celebrini would be Tort's dream child to coach. So while the poster you're replying to is right in a vacuum , I don't think it would apply to Macklin because he's so well rounded, at least to the extent as it does with Michkov; he might be reigned in a little, but not the same level

 

[Adam Warlock]

Celebrini would be Phillys 1C and would easily be more important than Michkov on that roster, hed have more points playing with Konecny as his wing and the better depth on that team. The current Sharks team hes on is dogwater compared to Philly and is actually not an environment most NHL rookies would succeed in to the degree he has. Case in point, his teammate and fellow rookie peer Will Smith, who was drafted ahead of Michkov, is pacing for around 30~pts on this Sharks season, if hes lucky and doesnt keep struggling.

Hes just better than Michkov and thats it. It has nothing to do with this excuse of Torts being this "Rocky Thompson" esque coach who punishes players not producing/playing well or whatever culture is there in Philly.

Michkov was never not playing well that was my whole point.

I wasnt calling Torts Rocky Thompson...the offense/PP coach on the Flyers is literally Rocky Thompson. Their PP has been league worst his entire tenure in philly...even worse than the sharks.

And no, Celebrini would not be the Flyers 1C. Talent wise, he absolutely should be, but thats just not what the organization believes in.

 

[TheBuriedHab]

Torts would play Celebrini 23 mins a night don't kid yourself.

Michkov is extremely lethal with the puck, but he has some really bad habits in his game that need to be fixed if he wants a long term NHL career. It's not a Flyers problem or a Torts problem. Tons of talented rookies go through it, its not a big deal, as long as Michkov cares enough to fix those problems.

 

[tiburon12]

Let's get more highlights in this thread!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Michkov was never not playing well that was my whole point.

I wasnt calling Torts Rocky Thompson...the offense/PP coach on the Flyers is literally Rocky Thompson. Their PP has been league worst his entire tenure in philly...even worse than the sharks.

And no, Celebrini would not be the Flyers 1C. Talent wise, he absolutely should be, but thats just not what the organization believes in.

Yeah he would. He’s not a normal rookie that doesn’t have a well-rounded game. Torts plays rookies like Celebrini that win situations consistently everywhere on the ice. It doesn’t matter how a lot of rookies get treated. Some overcome that if their play warrants it in a way the coach favors. Celebrini does that. It doesn’t matter what an organization believes in. Results and tape doesn’t lie.

As for Hutson, he can hang with Celebrini in scoring and he’d still lose the Calder. If you don’t think an 18 year old consensus #1 draft pick going ppg with Selke level defense as a rookie isn’t going to be considered by the voters, you’re fooling yourself. He’s the real deal and the obvious best rookie in this class. He only loses if he gets injured again seriously enough.

 

[majormajor]

If Celebrini can stay mostly healthy then this is locked up.

Even Hutson or Michkov scoring 80 pts wouldn't be enough. You're comparing an elite defensive forward to a porous one-way D and a porous one-way F, it won't cut it.

Again I am not debating which player is better. As a Flyers fan, I am trying to shed light on how disfunctional their team is, esp when it comes to developing young players.

When I say Celebrini would be benched and scratched if he was on the Flyers, I am not criticizing Celebrini...im criticizing how dumb the Flyers are that theyd do that to a player of his caliber.

It's not a Flyers thing or a Torts thing. I know Flyers fans exceptionalize every thing about their team and think it's all incredible incompetence. The reality is that scratching rookies with incomplete games (most of them) is normal in most of the league.

But you give Torts a rare instantly complete player like Celebrini and he'll play the crap out of him. He had Zach Werenski and Pierre Luc Dubois as 19 year olds and had them on the top line / unit and never scratched them.

 

[Felidae]

Don't know if this has been posted, but here's a mix including a wide variety of plays from Celebrini's first 23 games.



Kid has been unreal so far. Did anyone expect him to be this good right out of the gate?

 

[Patty Ice]

Be thankful Celebrini is in an evironment he can thrive in. Matvei certainly isnt.

It's best to send him to that place where he can thrive then. Perhaps for an already developed young, responsible player like Zetterlund?

 

[Shark Finn]

Be thankful Celebrini is in an evironment he can thrive in. Matvei certainly isnt.

The Flyers represent a traditional hockey culture unlike the Sharks, like was mentioned before. Those sunbelt bums in California don't know shit about hockey. They're letting Celebrini be the 1C, that's just irresponsible. Am I doing this right?

 

[sbhnur]

I don't give any opinion which player is better in general, but you guys should consider MM still plays his first games on the small ice and he is integrating in a completely new culture w/o speaking the language etc. (plus his coach isn't quite known for his development of prospects). So there are some challenging obstacles to start the career in the big league.
You can judge MM way better in some years from now.

 

[Fatass]

Hutson looks like he’s going to get the Calder. His numbers are coming from D. Michkov is great. Celebreni is great too. But imo Hutson is the Calder winner.

 

[majormajor]

I don't give any opinion which player is better in general, but you guys should consider MM still plays his first games on the small ice and he is integrating in a completely new culture w/o speaking the language etc. (plus his coach isn't quite known for his development of prospects). So there are some challenging obstacles to start the career in the big league.
You can judge MM way better in some years from now.

That's nonsense. Michkov has been playing on small ice for many years - both Sochi and SKA have been on small ice for 5+ years,. The KHL no longer allows clubs to use the big IIHF sized ice.

And Torts has had many great rookies in the past.

Michkov is having a great rookies season so there's no need to make excuses for him.

Hutson looks like he’s going to get the Calder. His numbers are coming from D. Michkov is great. Celebreni is great too. But imo Hutson is the Calder winner.

You don't get bonus points for playing defense if you can't play defense. Celebrini contributes more at both ends and should be comfortably ahead of Michkov and Hutson (I think Hutson would be in distant third place).

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Even Hutson or Michkov scoring 80 pts wouldn't be enough.

Holy crap, kick the bias aside and realize it's a lot more difficult for a dman to get to 80 points as a rookie, by the single fact that no defenseman has ever done that.

If Celebrini ends at 80 points, he'll be 20th all-time as a rookie forward, +50 points back of the record (132, Selanne). Let's say Hutson gets to 70 points. He'll be 3rd all-time, 6 points back of first place (76, Murphy). It's a lot harder for rookie dmen to high in points than it is for forwards.

A 20 year old defenseman should be considered just as young as an 18 years old centerman, as dmen typically take more time to break out. In fact, there's no dman in top 5 all-time rookie who started out at 18. They started out at 19-20-21 years old.

If Lane ends up top 5 all-time for rookie Ds, he sure as hell will be considered just as much.

 

[sbhnur]

That's nonsense. Michkov has been playing on small ice for many years - both Sochi and SKA have been on small ice for 5+ years,. The KHL no longer allows clubs to use the big IIHF sized ice.

And Torts has had many great rookies in the past.

Michkov is having a great rookies season so there's no need to make excuses for him.



You don't get bonus points for playing defense if you can't play defense. Celebrini contributes more at both ends and should be comfortably ahead of Michkov and Hutson (I think Hutson would be in distant third place).

Is this true, I read it multiple times he needs to make adjustments coming to the small rink?

Maybe it's the case like in the german DEL where you can have smaller rinks (not like the iihf standard). My hometown team Schwenninger Wild Wings shrinked their ice surface, but it's still different from the NHL size.
Some teams also do it to gain attendance.

Did you watch any Flyers game this season and are aware of the style the Flyers play and the usage of players? He heavily favors a safety first, dump, take no risk style which is a really bad fit for MM approach. And down the lineup the Flyers have no good center men to make plays with. But I agree with you, MM is making the most of it, but it can be frustrating to watch

 

[Essenege]

You don't get bonus points for playing defense if you can't play defense. Celebrini contributes more at both ends and should be comfortably ahead of Michkov and Hutson (I think Hutson would be in distant third place).

This is so stupid mate. Lane’s defensive stick is very good. He has good positioning and he’s always working like a pit bull in the d-zone. It doesn’t make him a stellar defensive D but I’d say he’s league average. Like other pointed out to you, he’s not sheltered and has a 5v5 31-33 GF-GA which is fine against top opposition for a rookie D.

Please watch the games, or don’t comment on a player. I myself won’t judge Michkov or Celebrini because I haven’t seen enough. You should do the same.

 

[majormajor]

Is this true, I read it multiple times he needs to make adjustments coming to the small rink?

Maybe it's the case like in the german DEL where you can have smaller rinks (not like the iihf standard). My hometown team Schwenninger Wild Wings shrinked their ice surface, but it's still different from the NHL size.
Some teams also do it to gain attendance.

Did you watch any Flyers game this season and are aware of the style the Flyers play and the usage of players? He heavily favors a safety first, dump, take no risk style which is a really bad fit for MM approach. And down the lineup the Flyers have no good center men to make plays with. But I agree with you, MM is making the most of it, but it can be frustrating to watch

People bring up the thing about adjusting to the rink size with nearly every Russian rookie, so I'm not surprised that people keep saying it about Michkov too. But yes, read the link, the KHL has been using small ice for a long time now.

Dump and chase isn't the best for Michkov but he's going to be hard pressed carrying it through the neutral zone too, he's not an end-to-end type of guy. Yes, eventually you'll want to have him play with a fast center who can carry pucks, perhaps Luchanko someday.

 

[majormajor]

This is so stupid mate. Lane’s defensive stick is very good. He has good positioning and he’s always working like a pit bull in the d-zone. It doesn’t make him a stellar defensive D but I’d say he’s league average. Like other pointed out to you, he’s not sheltered and has a 5v5 31-33 GF-GA which is fine against top opposition for a rookie D.

Please watch the games, or don’t comment on a player. I myself won’t judge Michkov or Celebrini because I haven’t seen enough. You should do the same.

I have seen plenty of Hutson. Enough to know you're doing a sell job here. 33 goals against at 5v5 is nearing the league lead, and that's not a good thing. I expect him to keep getting better at it but I'm judging him as is for the Calder.

 

[EveryDay]

I have seen plenty of Hutson. Enough to know you're doing a sell job here. 33 goals against at 5v5 is nearing the league lead, and that's not a good thing. I expect him to keep getting better at it but I'm judging him as is for the Calder.

He's playing against the other team top line at 20 yo. He shut down the top players of Tampa Bay and Florida this weekend.

You clearly don't watch him play.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I have seen plenty of Hutson. Enough to know you're doing a sell job here. 33 goals against at 5v5 is nearing the league lead, and that's not a good thing. I expect him to keep getting better at it but I'm judging him as is for the Calder.

Its the calder trophy. Only counting stats matter

Goals, assists, wins, shutouts, gaa.

 

[majormajor]

He's playing against the other team top line at 20 yo. He shut down the top players of Tampa Bay and Florida this weekend.

You clearly don't watch him play.

Classic Habs fan BS job. Yeah you guys had a great weekend. Don't act like Hutson has been some exemplar of defense all year. Just look at the season stats. It's not the profile of a good defensive player. He has the highest xGA/60 of any D not playing for the Sharks.

Yes, he's a rookie and expectations are low for rookie D and he'll keep getting better at it. All of that is true, I'm sure. But this year, the thing that matters for the Calder is this year. Have you noticed that you're simultaneously saying he should be getting the Calder and also that "he's good at it for a rookie"? That's not a thing you should be saying when you're comparing someone to Macklin Celebrini.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

This is so stupid mate. Lane’s defensive stick is very good. He has good positioning and he’s always working like a pit bull in the d-zone. It doesn’t make him a stellar defensive D but I’d say he’s league average. Like other pointed out to you, he’s not sheltered and has a 5v5 31-33 GF-GA which is fine against top opposition for a rookie D.

Please watch the games, or don’t comment on a player. I myself won’t judge Michkov or Celebrini because I haven’t seen enough. You should do the same.

Celebrini isn't much better either. He's 17-17 50.0% GF%.

On top of Hutson playing the most minutes on the Habs, whether total or ES.

Hutson is also getting better as he's 17-13 in his last 15 games, which is better than what Celebrini has done so far in a similar frame.