Post-Game Talk: Endgame

[MaxR11]

The reality is that in today's NHL you have to be able to play defense as well if you are on the top line. It seems like if we can't get going with speed in the neutral zone the top line is shut down which is odd when you have 2 big bodies in Kass and Drai out there.

bingo. some people are stuck in the 80s mindset. Just because they score some people think it gives them the right to be less than adequate defensively. That's poor leadership. Setting different standards of basic team culture and philosophy for different players. That's the perfect way to have team culture and cohesiveness crumble and deteriorate right in front of you.

There were games where that top line DID put in the work, simplify the entry, chip it in and grind and cycled til they got a few opportunities. And it was very encouraging and they more often than not succeeded and looked good. Played more in the o zone than d zone. But recently they've gotten lazy again and are cheating and taking short cuts and trying to skate through 2-3 guys, make lazy blind hope passes instead of working and grinding it out when the time and space isn't there. If they're tired then shorten the d*** shifts. Reduce ice time because as of now having a guy like Drai on the ice more 5v5 is actually hurting us. Shorten it up. As one ex pro said recently in an interview, short shifts makes you play with more energy and urgency... longer ones will get you into the habit of floating and conserving energy, cheating and the other team knows this and will take it to you hard with short shifts of their own.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

pretty sure all those guys were around in 15-16 with connor and drai and we were the worst f***ing team in the league.

We have McDavid and Draisatl now and we might end up bottom ten again.

 

[Soundwave]

pretty sure all those guys were around in 15-16 with connor and drai and we were the worst f***ing team in the league.

Again this is such disingenuous bull shit.

McDavid and Draisaitl were effectively both rookies and no where close to the players they are today. Nurse was a rookie. Klefbom basically too, and he also suffered a season ending injury. And McDavid broke his clavicle basically destroying that season.

That group never really got to play together.

The only version of the Oilers that didn't have rookie McDavid/Draisaitl on it and also had some semblance of offensive depth is the 16-17 Oilers where they got 20 or more goals from like 5 different players and Letestu by some freak occurrence became a PP triggerman.

And even that, really was squeezing a bit too hard, but it kinda worked.

 

[Cloned]

Comparing to that one playoff season is futile. We basically had Vezina level goaltending the entire year and career years out of Letestu, Larsson and Maroon. Sekera was more consistently good than Nurse, and it was Lucic’s last productive year.

I would also add that the skill level across the league just wasn’t as good as it is today.

 

[mastorofpuppetz]

lmao. Good work in the thread, some of these hot takes about McDrai being the problem, wow. The board is gravitating from Hall blaming to blaming two of the best players in hockey. Hard stuff to even read.

Show me one post that said they are the problem? Some of you must me dyslexic. They are not beyond criticism though,...simple common sense which is missing from many posts here.

Leon defensively has been awful....he is still a guy to build around. It's like some of you have a childs mentality....pointing out areas they also need to be better does not mean they are the main issue with the Oil...learn some nuance. They are still young and will get even better.....let's hope the org stops being a joke soon.

 

[Soundwave]

Comparing to that one playoff season is futile. We basically had Vezina level goaltending the entire year and career years out of Letestu, Larsson and Maroon. Sekera was more consistently good than Nurse, and it was Lucic’s last productive year.

I would also add that the skill level across the league just wasn’t as good as it is today.

That team had OK offensive depth, even there though they had to stretch hard to score more than 2 goals a night on too many nights.

The main difference between that team and this team is they don't have offensive depth anymore.

 

[Cloned]

That team had OK offensive depth, even there though they had to stretch hard to score more than 2 goals a night on too many nights.

The main difference between that team and this team is they don't have offensive depth anymore.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile comparing because the odds of that happening again with this roster are highly unlikely.

The equivalent would be something like:

Koskinen playing at a Vezina level the whole year, 60+ games too
Neal scoring 30 goals alongside McDavid
Kassian scoring 50 points
Nurse playing like Sekera the whole year
Larsson having another career year
Archibald, Haas or Sheahan scoring 15 goals
A functional second line where they put up decent (not even great) numbers

All of that has to happen in one year. Chia left too many holes in the roster to fix in one summer.

Holland need to be more proactive though.

 

[Soundwave]

I don’t think it’s worthwhile comparing because the odds of that happening again with this roster are highly unlikely.

The equivalent would be something like:

Koskinen playing at a Vezina level the whole year, 60+ games too
Neal scoring 30 goals alongside McDavid
Kassian scoring 50 points
Nurse playing like Sekera the whole year
Larsson having another career year
Archibald, Haas or Sheahan scoring 15 goals
A functional second line where they put up decent (not even great) numbers

All of that has to happen in one year. Chia left too many holes in the roster to fix in one summer.

Holland need to be more proactive though.

Some of those things *are* happening though.

Koskinen's save percentage is not far off from Talbot's.

Neal is on pace for 30 goals, though he's basically a one dimensional player at this point but how different is that from Eberle 16-17?

Kassian is basically doing the same thing Maroon did on McDavid's line that year.

They are missing 1-2 good forwards from being comparable in depth, it's not worth flushing down another season in the toilet just because they don't want to give up any 1st or 2nd round picks/or OK-ish prospects ever.

 

[Cloned]

Some of those things *are* happening though.

Koskinen's save percentage is not far off from Talbot's.

Neal is on pace for 30 goals, though he's basically a one dimensional player at this point but how different is that from Eberle 16-17?

Kassian is basically doing the same thing Maroon did on McDavid's line that year.

They are missing 1-2 good forwards from being comparable in depth, it's not worth flushing down another season in the toilet just because they don't want to give up any 1st or 2nd round picks/or OK-ish prospects ever.

I’d argue they’re missing 3 good forwards (Letestu, Eberle and good RNH) and at least 1 good defender. I think Holland needs to address at least one of those things this season but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect him to address all four. You’re likely looking at an asset cost of multiple first round picks and top prospects. Given the uncertainty of where this team will finish I can’t say it’d be the best risk to take.

 

[space321]

Show me one post that said they are the problem? Some of you must me dyslexic. They are not beyond criticism though,...simple common sense which is missing from many posts here.

Leon defensively has been awful....he is still a guy to build around. It's like some of you have a childs mentality....pointing out areas they also need to be better does not mean they are the main issue with the Oil...learn some nuance. They are still young and will get even better.....let's hope the org stops being a joke soon.

Actually given the circumstances, I'd say they should be beyond criticism. No one else in the league is in the same futile situation as these two, except maybe Jack Eichel. These two are literally the entire team. They must score if we want to win, that's not an opinion, that's just a statistical fact because the rest of the team sucks. As a result, I don't think it's fair to start criticising them when things stop going their way for a few weeks. Not a single player can stay consistent for an entire season, let alone expecting these two to play at that level for 23 minutes per game.

The blame lies 100% with the rest of the team for not picking up the play (ie. Nuge, Neal, etc) and on the GM for not getting them any help.

 

[Soundwave]

I’d argue they’re missing 3 good forwards and at least 1 good defender. I think Holland needs to address at least one of those things this season but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect him to address all four.

If they had 3 additional good forwards, seriously they'd be in the hunt for 1st in the conference.

People don't realize what they're saying when they say that, three good forwards is like 50-60 additional goals and several games tilting the Oilers way at critical moments such that GA don't happen the same way either because you've buried the other team and changed the trajectory of many games dramatically.

 

[Cloned]

If they had 3 additional good forwards, seriously they'd be in the hunt for 1st in the conference.

People don't realize what they're saying when they say that, three good forwards is like 50-60 additional goals and several games tilting the Oilers way at critical moments such that GA don't happen the same way either because you've buried the other team.

Which is where that 16-17 team was, hunting for first overall in the division and the conference.

They’re basically missing 15 goal Letestu, 50 point Eberle, and 55 point RNH.

 

[bucktown]

You can insert Ebs, hall Schultz back here for free and this team would be no better off.... heck it wouldn't surprise me if they were worse with them....

I mean, just no. You are a decent poster, but you can't be expected to be taken seriously saying things like this. I'm not a fan of any of those players, but in theory, those 3 guys fill every hole we have other than goaltending.

Culture doesn't win hockey games, scoring more goals than the other guys does. You know what creates culture? Winning hockey games.

Nobody points fingers in a winning locker room.

I'm convinced half the posters here have never played a team sport, let alone hockey, in their lives.

 

[Soundwave]

The Carolina and Minnesota games have really done a number on this team.

They fought back in those games and it would've been a huge boost to get even 1 point out of them, but they tie the game and then immediately get scored on afterwards ... that I think has just gutted the morale of the squad.

Needed a big save there, defensive coverage has suffered but it's also because the forwards are pressing too hard for offence trying to come back from behind.

 

[MaxR11]

I mean, just no. You are a decent poster, but you can't be expected to be taken seriously saying things like this. I'm not a fan of any of those players, but in theory, those 3 guys fill every hole we have other than goaltending.

Culture doesn't win hockey games, scoring more goals than the other guys does. You know what creates culture? Winning hockey games.

Nobody points fingers in a winning locker room.

I'm convinced half the posters here have never played a team sport, let alone hockey, in their lives.

The key phrase you mentioned is "in theory". "In theory" the team, in 2015-16 should have been better when Connor came back from injury but they actually got worse for a while and no better overall. I think they won a game or two when he came back and proceeded to lose almost all the rest of the games that month.

I understand the need for depth and I agree it needs to be addressed. My point is I think the bigger issue lies with the leadership and culture of this team. No excuse for being unprepared so often and playing the wrong with with putrid efforts so often recently. You can come prepared and play the right way with effort no matter what the roster is like. And like i said before it's moreso in the last month the leaders and best players on the team that are sagging in those categories more than the others.

Culture is strength and resiliency through adversity. The strength to keep grinding and stick with the buy in of defence first rather than giving up and going your own way and trying to cheat for offence. the strength to play with the cards youre dealt. So we don't have the greatest scoring depth... then until we develop it or trade for some connor and drai have to bite the bullet and suck it up and grind harder on defence first mentality and grind out 2-1 wins... stay in games..... the pt totals may or may not take a hit but it's good for the team development going forward.

I've played... i know darn well how vital a good culture set even before a single game has played is. Preparation, team values, complete and unwavering team buy in even in the face of adversity, practice habits, selflessness (not worrying about individual stats etc) etc etc. And also how vital it is to have good leaders who are players not just coaches. I can't remember who said it (maybe Holland) but he said it's vital to have good vet leaders because as gm he doesn't get as many "touches" as he likes with the players (conversations)... and the coaches who get more still don't have that much. It's the vets who sit beside guys in the dressing room and bench etc that have a lot of touches and can impart proper habits, values and clarify coach's teachings.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

I'm glad I skipped this game and watched TC get blasted today by Russia. Probably a more enjoyable viewing experience.

 

[Cloned]

I'm glad I skipped this game and watched TC get blasted today by Russia. Probably a more enjoyable viewing experience.

There’s no winning as a Canadian Oilers fan.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

There’s no winning as a Canadian Oilers fan.

Suffering from the success of the 80's and early 90's. It's a rough life because I wasn't even f***ING born yet.

 

[MaxR11]

Again this is such disingenuous bull ****.

McDavid and Draisaitl were effectively both rookies and no where close to the players they are today. Nurse was a rookie. Klefbom basically too, and he also suffered a season ending injury. And McDavid broke his clavicle basically destroying that season.

That group never really got to play together.

The only version of the Oilers that didn't have rookie McDavid/Draisaitl on it and also had some semblance of offensive depth is the 16-17 Oilers where they got 20 or more goals from like 5 different players and Letestu by some freak occurrence became a PP triggerman.

And even that, really was squeezing a bit too hard, but it kinda worked.

16-17 team was basically the same minus hall so "theoretically" they should have been even worse?

it matters not... the team was still putrid when connor came back in 15-16.... with supposed awesome offensive depth.

point is, yes this team could certainly use some upgrades in scoring depth, but the main issue is leadership, resiliency and just general culture. We've seen how this team can play well as 5 men units on the ice and play to their roles when they buy in. When the leaders stop buying in, the rest eventually follow too. I'm not asking them to be a 1st in the conference type team with this roster but i know they can at LEAST be more competetive in games win or lose. and come much better prepared more often. These are things that don't require talent.

 

[Cloned]

Suffering from the success of the 80's and early 90's. It's a rough life because I wasn't even ****ING born yet.

#MillennialProblems

 

[DerpMorg]

It’s been 24 hrs and I’m more angry than I was post game.

This fan base and this city deserves better from this f***ing organization and that includes the players too. Full stop. Pathetic.

 

[BudBundy]

The key phrase you mentioned is "in theory". "In theory" the team, in 2015-16 should have been better when Connor came back from injury but they actually got worse for a while and no better overall. I think they won a game or two when he came back and proceeded to lose almost all the rest of the games that month.

I understand the need for depth and I agree it needs to be addressed. My point is I think the bigger issue lies with the leadership and culture of this team. No excuse for being unprepared so often and playing the wrong with with putrid efforts so often recently. You can come prepared and play the right way with effort no matter what the roster is like. And like i said before it's moreso in the last month the leaders and best players on the team that are sagging in those categories more than the others.

Culture is strength and resiliency through adversity. The strength to keep grinding and stick with the buy in of defence first rather than giving up and going your own way and trying to cheat for offence. the strength to play with the cards youre dealt. So we don't have the greatest scoring depth... then until we develop it or trade for some connor and drai have to bite the bullet and suck it up and grind harder on defence first mentality and grind out 2-1 wins... stay in games..... the pt totals may or may not take a hit but it's good for the team development going forward.

I've played... i know darn well how vital a good culture set even before a single game has played is. Preparation, team values, complete and unwavering team buy in even in the face of adversity, practice habits, selflessness (not worrying about individual stats etc) etc etc. And also how vital it is to have good leaders who are players not just coaches. I can't remember who said it (maybe Holland) but he said it's vital to have good vet leaders because as gm he doesn't get as many "touches" as he likes with the players (conversations)... and the coaches who get more still don't have that much. It's the vets who sit beside guys in the dressing room and bench etc that have a lot of touches and can impart proper habits, values and clarify coach's teachings.

You are a walking version of TL;DR.

 

[Soundwave]

16-17 team was basically the same minus hall so "theoretically" they should have been even worse?

it matters not... the team was still putrid when connor came back in 15-16.... with supposed awesome offensive depth.

point is, yes this team could certainly use some upgrades in scoring depth, but the main issue is leadership, resiliency and just general culture. We've seen how this team can play well as 5 men units on the ice and play to their roles when they buy in. When the leaders stop buying in, the rest eventually follow too. I'm not asking them to be a 1st in the conference type team with this roster but i know they can at LEAST be more competetive in games win or lose. and come much better prepared more often. These are things that don't require talent.

The problem really is basically rooted in your 2nd line.

When your 2nd line doesn't score it creates a ripple effect that is going to blow up in your face sooner or later.

The first line then has extraordinary pressure put on them to score and they learn they have to cheat for offence and this is reinforced by the fact that this actually can work for stretches when the goaltending is good enough.

The other ripple effect is downstream on the roster where 3rd/4th line guys are being asked to provide secondary offence and because McDavid is on the team, there is huge media attention given to this story.

Now the 3rd/4th line guys are clutching their sticks too hard.

2nd line not being good creates a massive bottleneck on the team that affects the other 3 lines profoundly and then when the goaltending hits an ugly stretch suddenly all the stuff that was working isn't working and you have young players frustrated.

 

[bucktown]

I understand the need for depth and I agree it needs to be addressed. My point is I think the bigger issue lies with the leadership and culture of this team.

Agree to disagree.

Depth is what contending teams add before a run at the cup. Depth is when you have prospects that are capable of stepping into key roles while under elc's. Depth is linemates stepping up when players are down with injury, and still winning games.

We are still in the 'filling major roster holes' stage. We have one scoring line. Ish. We have a bottom 6 comprised of barely fringe NHL players with extremely limited skillsets who are essentially zero threat to score. Or play a physical game. Or defend reliably. Or eat minutes at the very least without being a total liability. We STILL don't have a single true 1/2 defenceman, which is mind boggling. We have 1 (single) prospect who was able to step in and make an impact for a few games this season (Bear) and other than that, magic beans, nobody is close NHL ready.

All the talk about leadership and working hard and being prepared and culture.... It's bull shit. Winning teams win, regardless of personalities. Shit, guys that hated each other won cups playing on the same line.

It's what everyone has to say, because Holland is not going to step to the mic and say 'This roster is not one that can compete on an NHL level night in and night out, our prospect pool is marginal at best and years away at minimum, and we can't make any trades because players won't come here without a significant overpay, which we can't do because of all the dead cap and existing overpay. But we can't publicly announce a rebuild because you will have my head on a spike for ruining Mcdavid. We won't be competitive for years, but please keep your season tix!'

Leadership is the least of our worries.

 

[MaxR11]

Agree to disagree.

Depth is what contending teams add before a run at the cup. Depth is when you have prospects that are capable of stepping into key roles while under elc's. Depth is linemates stepping up when players are down with injury, and still winning games.

We are still in the 'filling major roster holes' stage. We have one scoring line. Ish. We have a bottom 6 comprised of barely fringe NHL players with extremely limited skillsets who are essentially zero threat to score. Or play a physical game. Or defend reliably. Or eat minutes at the very least without being a total liability. We STILL don't have a single true 1/2 defenceman, which is mind boggling. We have 1 (single) prospect who was able to step in and make an impact for a few games this season (Bear) and other than that, magic beans, nobody is close NHL ready.

All the talk about leadership and working hard and being prepared and culture.... It's bull ****. Winning teams win, regardless of personalities. ****, guys that hated each other won cups playing on the same line.

It's what everyone has to say, because Holland is not going to step to the mic and say 'This roster is not one that can compete on an NHL level night in and night out, our prospect pool is marginal at best and years away at minimum, and we can't make any trades because players won't come here without a significant overpay, which we can't do because of all the dead cap and existing overpay. But we can't publicly announce a rebuild because you will have my head on a spike for ruining Mcdavid. We won't be competitive for years, but please keep your season tix!'

Leadership is the least of our worries.

K, ya, agree to disagree here. I do think leadership is absolutely an issue. Tippett is basically calling them out recently. Coming back from a break and being unprepared at a morning skate and then having it spill over not just in the first 10 seconds but basically the entire game of lackadaisical play is not good and definitely a leaership thing. And it's a common theme for this team, not just this year recently but previous years.

Also not liking your teammates is not what culture is ALL about. You can have guys than are NOT buds but still hold each other accountable to the team philosophies and culture like hard work, effort, urgency, defending first etc.... When they get on the ice it's business and they can still work well together. In fact sometimes when they ARE too buddy buddy it can lead to a bad bad country club, lazy, lack of accountability kind of culture. Guys might not be as willing to make the tough conversation and hold their buddies accountable for complete cr** play that does not fit into the team plan/culture. Things slide and guys start to hold their ill will inside and they start to sag and team cohesion crumbles.