Blue Jays Discussion: End of the Hand
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justashadowof
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- Aug 15, 2020
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This season seems like the biggest waste of great individual seasons since those 2 Roger Clemens' years (98/99) and that epic collapse in 1987.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
This is one of those things where everyone's gonna look bad by the end of it.
I don't think the players sticking it to the fans for booing them is the right move. Fans have the right to voice their displeasure. As long as they're not out there screaming grossly inappropriate or offensive things in the process, it's fine. Booing is fine. You don't wanna get booed? Play better.
That said, if the players want to do the thumbs down "protest" as a small thing because they're frustrated, I wouldn't be against it even though I think it's childish. For me the line is crossed when Baez uses the interview to pointedly tell the fans that it's their fault and they should just cheer for the team and be fans "the right way". This is shades of that JP Arencibia nonsense where he got all huffy at Sportsnet for not indoctrinating the fans to how awesome he is because he was playing through injuries even though it hurt the team and he had some HRs and RBIs even though he was failing to reach base at a literally historic pace (had he not fallen like <5 PAs short of qualifying for seasonal average stats leaderboards)
but the owner releasing a statement that says "they shouldn't do that and I'm going to come down on anyone who does" doesn't help either. I absolutely think he should talk to them about it and probably put a stop to vocal clapbacks at the fans. The Mets are a business and their brand matters. Players metaphorically flipping off the fanbase hurts the brand and theoretically hurts the bottom line. Image matters in business and employees that damage the image of a brand are and should be subject to discipline and sanctions for doing so. Because as much as people might want to go "but free speech!" 1) this is not what free speech laws and rights were designed or intended for and 2) free speech regulations do not apply to private companies. A privately owned and operated company can restrict speech of people it engages in professional relationships with (customers, employees, sub-contractors, etc) within the confines of their business operations. That includes the Mets telling a Mets player doing an interview in his Mets uniform while at his place of work and speaking to the media in a capacity related to his employment by the Mets (ie about baseball). But with that in mind the owner shouldn't have released a statement saying they won't allow such comments and are going to come down on the players for doing so. He should've released a statement saying that he disagreed with the players' take on things, that such opinions do not represent the Mets or their brand or other employees, and then dealt with the internal aspects of the situation privately. Go have your meeting with the players and tell them to stop being whingy little babies and stop sucking. But do it in-house.
Instead this just becomes a giant mess where nobody looks good.
Cloned
Begging for Bega
- Aug 25, 2003
- 82,367
- 73,518
Id throw 2006 in the conversation too. That pitching staff was great including bj ryan as closer. But 87 wins wasnt even close to getting it done
phillipmike
Registered User
- Oct 27, 2009
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Why is he only designated hitting tonight and not playing outfield too? Is it like last time and he's really not ready and will last one or two games.
The most ridiculous thing about this is that Javy Baez has been there for like 5 minutes and played like dog shit as their big deadline acquisition.
If Pete Alonso or someone who's been there for a bit wants to make a statement about the fans ... it's still iffy, but at least he's done something in the uniform and has some credibility. But to arrive there and in less than a month be publicly ripping the fans while you're rocking a .258 OBP is both childish and downright stupid. What a moron.
Kurtz
Registered User
- Jul 17, 2005
- 10,544
- 7,817
Makes more sense to take the risk now at the end of the season.
2006 was worse for me. 87-75 but Josh Towers and Ty Taubenheim combined to go 3-15 that year.
Rest of the team played to a 95 win pace which would have been tied for the wild card and the 3rd best record in the AL.
Monday with Mitchell: Atkins believes Jays still have time to make a run - TSN.ca
TORONTO — Time is without a doubt ticking on the Toronto Blue Jays’ wild-card hopes, but the general manager is still confident there’s enough sand left in the hourglass.
With 33 games to go heading into Monday night’s series opener against the lowly Baltimore Orioles, the Jays’ post-season odds, per FanGraphs’ estimation, sat at just 7.6 per cent.
GM Ross Atkins, however, is optimistic.
“We feel good about the team, we feel good about the shape of the organization and feel that we have enough season left to really make a good run,” Atkins said from the Blue Jays dugout Monday afternoon. “We have yet to have all things clicking at once. Even in that 9-2 stretch (to begin the month of August), it was really our pitching that kind of carried us through that. We’ve yet to have a time where all things have been happening for this team and very confident that it’s in our future and, certainly, hopeful it starts soon.”
The O’s haven’t put up many fights this season, so they’re a good tonic for what ails the offensively-challenged Jays these days.
But the big series on this homestand is the upcoming weekend three-gamer with the Oakland A’s, a team in the exact same position — on the fringes of the wild-card race and facing an uphill battle — as Atkins’ club.
Twenty-two wins from here on out would get the Jays to 90 wins on the season, but that’s the absolute minimum it’s going to take in the American League.
It’s much more likely to take 92 or 93 wins to earn the second wild-card berth, leaving the Jays facing a stretch where they truly need to go 25-8 to have a chance.
If the Jays are going to get red hot like that, an offence that has averaged just 2.7 runs over its last 10 games will have to find its previous form.
“It’s just so magnified, I think, with where we are in the standings, how well they have performed offensively all year,” Atkins said of his team’s offensive struggles. “We’ve had so many big individual performances and in many cases a lot of really good team performance from an offensive standpoint. It’s a combination of guys just hitting a little bit of a lull, which does happen, and if we had the answer to why that’s occurring then it would be occurring less.”
TORONTO — Time is without a doubt ticking on the Toronto Blue Jays’ wild-card hopes, but the general manager is still confident there’s enough sand left in the hourglass.
With 33 games to go heading into Monday night’s series opener against the lowly Baltimore Orioles, the Jays’ post-season odds, per FanGraphs’ estimation, sat at just 7.6 per cent.
GM Ross Atkins, however, is optimistic.
“We feel good about the team, we feel good about the shape of the organization and feel that we have enough season left to really make a good run,” Atkins said from the Blue Jays dugout Monday afternoon. “We have yet to have all things clicking at once. Even in that 9-2 stretch (to begin the month of August), it was really our pitching that kind of carried us through that. We’ve yet to have a time where all things have been happening for this team and very confident that it’s in our future and, certainly, hopeful it starts soon.”
The O’s haven’t put up many fights this season, so they’re a good tonic for what ails the offensively-challenged Jays these days.
But the big series on this homestand is the upcoming weekend three-gamer with the Oakland A’s, a team in the exact same position — on the fringes of the wild-card race and facing an uphill battle — as Atkins’ club.
Twenty-two wins from here on out would get the Jays to 90 wins on the season, but that’s the absolute minimum it’s going to take in the American League.
It’s much more likely to take 92 or 93 wins to earn the second wild-card berth, leaving the Jays facing a stretch where they truly need to go 25-8 to have a chance.
If the Jays are going to get red hot like that, an offence that has averaged just 2.7 runs over its last 10 games will have to find its previous form.
“It’s just so magnified, I think, with where we are in the standings, how well they have performed offensively all year,” Atkins said of his team’s offensive struggles. “We’ve had so many big individual performances and in many cases a lot of really good team performance from an offensive standpoint. It’s a combination of guys just hitting a little bit of a lull, which does happen, and if we had the answer to why that’s occurring then it would be occurring less.”
- May 3, 2021
- 9,178
- 9,174
Will someone please explain to me like I am five years old how Romano came in for the final two batters in the ninth inning, with a four run lead, and got a save? I know there are some bizarre saves possible, trust me, from trying to Google this. No understanding yet though. Thanks!
Morgs
#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Guys on base count as the pitcher who let them on runs if they score. So for whatever f***ed up reason they see it as a 2 run lead for Romano because if those guys scored they wouldn't be his runs.
Aka, if a guy is coming to "close" the game with runner(s) on, each one counts as a run.
phillipmike
Registered User
- Oct 27, 2009
- 12,981
- 9,178
Luckily the answer is the same whether you are 5 years old or 50;
Our manager is Charlie Montoyo.
Believe if the man on deck would bring the game to within 3, including those on base, it is a save opportunity.
- May 3, 2021
- 9,178
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Gotcha. I appreciate it. I was reading the scenario as those baserunners on before Romano came out to be only a potential loss for the previous pitcher.
Canada4Gold
Registered User
- Dec 22, 2010
- 43,235
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3 ways to get a save, as long as you’re not the pitcher getting the win obviously
1) pitch the final 3 innings of a game your teams wins
2) pitch the final inning and enter the game with a 3 run lead or less
3) enter the game with the tying run on base, at the plate or on deck and finish the game
number 3 applies here, 4 run lead but with 2 guys on base the guy on deck is the tying run.
I’m not entirely certain but I think the pitcher who gets the win could also get the save via the above in some weird circumstance where the pitcher goes out into the field after pitching earlier and then comes back into pitch again, but obviously not relevant here.
- May 3, 2021
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I was doing some reading the other day and found out it’s actually discretionary whether a win is handed out. I believe. The scorers can rule that the pitcher of record doesn’t actually automatically get a win. I mean they probably do in application, but it’s possible for the pitcher of record not having earned the win by scorer’s judgement.
Win (W) | Glossary
There is also a rarely used clause where an official scorer can deem a relief pitcher's appearance "brief and ineffective." (For example, if a reliever relinquished a one-run lead by allowing three runs, but was still in line for a win after his team scored four runs in the following inning -- that may qualify.) If that's the case, the scorer can award the win to a pitcher who followed that "brief and ineffective" pitcher. Which relief pitcher earns the win specifically is also up to the judgment of the official scorer.
Maybe you knew that but I found it interesting.
Canada4Gold
Registered User
- Dec 22, 2010
- 43,235
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I believe it’s only scorers discretion when the starter leaves the game with the lead but doesn’t pitch at least 5 innings and said lead is maintained the entire game. Because then he’s not eligible and the guy who replaced him entered with the lead so doesn’t get it that way either. Scorer gives the lead to whichever reliever they feel deserves it the most. Any other scenario it’s automatic
Canada4Gold
Registered User
- Dec 22, 2010
- 43,235
- 9,426
Saw your ninja edit. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that clause used. That situation is often referred to as vulturing a win. Though the specific situation I’m thinking of is often late in the game, you blow a save and then your team walks it off so no pitcher follows you to get the win. In the case where you’re the road team, blow it in the 8th and then your team takes the lead in the 9th and someone replaces you for the bottom I’d assume you get the win and the final pitcher gets the save, but I guess it’s not automatic.
I don’t really care too much about wins so perhaps it’s happened and I haven’t noticed but Ive never seen it
I don’t really care too much about wins so perhaps it’s happened and I haven’t noticed but Ive never seen it
- May 3, 2021
- 9,178
- 9,174
It’s just some weird fun stuff that at some point in our history was hashed out and agreed upon, and if we ever actually see it it’s like “Huh. Well how about that?”
Del Preston
Registered User
- Mar 8, 2013
- 63,171
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Save (SV) | Glossary | MLB.com
Definition
A save is awarded to the relief pitcher who finishes a game for the winning team, under certain circumstances. A pitcher cannot receive a save and a win in the same game.
A relief pitcher recording a save must preserve his team's lead while doing one of the following:
• Enter the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitch at least one inning.
• Enter the game with the tying run in the on-deck circle, at the plate or on the bases.
• Pitch at least three innings.
Origin
The term save was used by general managers in the 1950s, without specific parameters. It simply referred to a pitcher who entered the game with a lead and finished off a win -- regardless of score. Writer Jerome Holtzman was the first to give specific criteria to saves in the early 1960s. But saves didn't become an official stat until 1969.
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