End of Season Media Availability - Management ( 10 PST)

[Hodgy]

But we don't qualify our opinions by saying I am not an NHL scout (they will have more information talking to players coaches and families seeing players live than any of us) an NHL GM, or whatever else we talk about here. Any subject will have things that we just don't know. The Medical field shouldn't be different and in fact I would argue should be more open.

Again, the qualifications are way different and farther reaching for a medical team. I get what you are saying, and I have conceded that we don't have all the information to, for example, criticize a management team, or a player's performance, but that doesn't mean its the same as for a medical team. And its definitely not more open. Medical information is extremely guarded and team's disclose the absolute bare minimum. Basically no one really knows the extent of any injury other than the very minimal disclosure provided by the team. It just isn't a fair parallel - I'd be way more comfortable criticizing a player's performance over an 82 game season, or a manager's decision to sign that player, than criticizing a medical team's handling of an injury when I have no medical expertise or access to any of the injury records like MRIs, or xrays, or physical inspections, etc., and frankly, I'm quite surprised you are even challenging this. Again, my initial stance seems very reasonable and not something people should really take issue with.

There are people here who will have seen many similar cases either to friends family or even their own clients. Not only that, but we can look up previous cases, we can look up other NHL players, there is still a lot of information that is at our fingertips.

For sure, and I welcome all of these posts. I myself, for example, have/had patellar tendinitis! And I think these posts do have value. But like, just because I have patellar tendinitis, doesn't mean I am in a reasonable position, for example, to evaluate how the Canucks medical team handled Pettersson's injury.

I have no problem then going but sure there is still information we are missing that we do not know. But I personally at least and I assume others are the same, are willing to change my opinion as more information becomes available.

I'd be more inclined to just reserve judgment in the case of concluding whether the Canucks' medical team is incompetent or not for the reasons I have given.

By the way, where is your avatar picture from? I've always wondered.

 

[Hodgy]

You're right. I had in him in mind but wrote Willes for some reason.

Gallagher is the best. I loved listing to him back on the Team 1040, or reading his articles.

IIRC, he was on 650 or something a year or so ago and didn't hold back. He's even better now since he's retired and gives zero f***s at all.

If I am being fair to the media - and I called Scott Rintoul out on twitter for this (was my only tweet, ever) - they are bias and not objective because there job depends on, to a degree, access to the team and various sources, and I don't really blame someone for not risking their livelihood to report "truthfully" or "objectively" on a f***ing game. It is what it is. I'd feel differently if these media members were actual journalists reporting on actual news.

 

[bossram]

Gallagher is the best. I loved listing to him back on the Team 1040, or reading his articles.

IIRC, he was on 650 or something a year or so ago and didn't hold back. He's even better now since he's retired and gives zero f***s at all.

If I am being fair to the media - and I called Scott Rintoul out on twitter for this (was my only tweet, ever) - they are bias and not objective because there job depends on, to a degree, access to the team and various sources, and I don't really blame someone for not risking their livelihood to report "truthfully" or "objectively" on a f***ing game. It is what it is. I'd feel differently if these media members were actual journalists reporting on actual news.

It's more about the team's conduct though. Back in the day these guys were critical but didn't have to fear losing access.

Now, CMAC is pulling access if you don't toe the party line too much, limiting access to players, and even in extreme cases is completely pulling credentials.

 

[racerjoe]

Again, the qualifications are way different and farther reaching for a medical team. I get what you are saying, and I have conceded that we don't have all the information to, for example, criticize a management team, or a player's performance, but that doesn't mean its the same as for a medical team. And its definitely not more open. Medical information is extremely guarded and team's disclose the absolute bare minimum. Basically no one really knows the extent of any injury other than the very minimal disclosure provided by the team. It just isn't a fair parallel - I'd be way more comfortable criticizing a player's performance over an 82 game season, or a manager's decision to sign that player, than criticizing a medical team's handling of an injury when I have no medical expertise or access to any of the injury records like MRIs, or xrays, or physical inspections, etc., and frankly, I'm quite surprised you are even challenging this. Again, my initial stance seems very reasonable and not something people should really take issue with.


For sure, and I welcome all of these posts. I myself, for example, have/had patellar tendinitis! And I think these posts do have value. But like, just because I have patellar tendinitis, doesn't mean I am in a reasonable position, for example, to evaluate how the Canucks medical team handled Pettersson's injury.


I'd be more inclined to just reserve judgment in the case of concluding whether the Canucks' medical team is incompetent or not for the reasons I have given.

By the way, where is your avatar picture from? I've always wondered.

I think where we differ for medical is we hear that Pettersson has as you said patellar tendinitis (funny enough I get that semi often from Volleyball), online there is infinite information about this. We can google it see how to treat it, and a timeline. A lot of time we can even figure out how serious it was because of the timeline. If it does take too long we can note it.

I say note it, only because as I said before I think you will always have one offs, and stuff can go wrong even if you do everything right.

But I use that as one data point... then I look at Demko... I google that and look into it, there is another data point. Then I look at Hughes, and in the real time you had people questioning his return then sure enough... he makes it worse, so there is another.

Again I would agree one offs will happen and I would not suggest bad practice from that. Hell I have a doctor friend who had a client in his exam have a freak accident. Wouldn't suggest it was his fault. But one the second third and fourth pile up... I ask questions.

The avatar is a contestant from the TV show so you think you can dance Courtney Galiano

 

[4th line culture]

I think where we differ for medical is we hear that Pettersson has as you said patellar tendinitis (funny enough I get that semi often from Volleyball), online there is infinite information about this. We can google it see how to treat it, and a timeline. A lot of time we can even figure out how serious it was because of the timeline. If it does take too long we can note it.

I say note it, only because as I said before I think you will always have one offs, and stuff can go wrong even if you do everything right.

But I use that as one data point... then I look at Demko... I google that and look into it, there is another data point. Then I look at Hughes, and in the real time you had people questioning his return then sure enough... he makes it worse, so there is another.

Again I would agree one offs will happen and I would not suggest bad practice from that. Hell I have a doctor friend who had a client in his exam have a freak accident. Wouldn't suggest it was his fault. But one the second third and fourth pile up... I ask questions.

The avatar is a contestant from the TV show so you think you can dance Courtney Galiano

Add in Dickinson playing with a broken hand and only finding out after going to Chicago

 

[Britton]

It's more about the team's conduct though. Back in the day these guys were critical but didn't have to fear losing access.

Now, CMAC is pulling access if you don't toe the party line too much, limiting access to players, and even in extreme cases is completely pulling credentials.

We started to see this right around when Benning came in, I imagine it was aquaman setting the tone at that time. The media was much more critical of Gillis than they were of Benning despite Gillis being miles better of a GM than Benning. Ironically the guys who were known as the most critical over the years were the least critical of Gilllis, and the guys who were the most critical of Gillis mostly became shills for the Benning era. Imac and Willis in particular were leading the charge to get Gillis fired but defended Benning at every opportunity early on.

 

[thecupismine]

I’d accept honesty as an explanation if management were forthright about their role in this season’s failings. Mike Gillis was honest in that way.

Basically their entire explanation for what went wrong was Pettersson. There was an issue with two players that bled into the dressing room - Miller worked hard to fix it, and they love the guy, but it didn’t work out. Pettersson didn’t come in prepared. He wouldn’t play two way hockey. Sorry, but you’re dumb if you think that’s the entire reason the season went off the rails, and even dumber if you kept him around if he could single-handedly cause that to happen.

The Hughes-brothers thing was just dumb. Maybe it’s nothing but if Hughes is on the fence about staying, it’s not going to help and might hurt.

I see Gillis' name and I just get sad. Greatest era in Canucks history, rumors that he wanted Larkin with that Virtanen pick way back, made the proactive move to get Horvat to rebuild, etc. I miss the team being so ahead of the curve on acquiring guys who produce at ES at ridiculously low prices (Chris Higgins comes to mind).

I'm hoping the blame the players thing doesn't seep into their decision making this summer, and they understand where they're at fault. At the very least they've acknowledged they are weak up front, even if they didn't really understand how shit they were on the back-end to start the year (not super suprising if you look at Rutherford's history of building blue lines - they've usually been patch work that somehow work while the forward groups have been very strong).

 

[iFan]

Gillis and Gilman were such a great duo to have running the show. Our media turned on them because they wouldn’t leak info to them and gave them the cold shoulder. The local and national media bashed Gillis a lot. The world is much different today, you can easily bypass the media and talk directly to fans now.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It isn't a given. There are a number of posters on here that have absolutely said the Canucks medical team sucks just based on the injuries Canuck players have had and their healing times, and they aren't qualifying this opinion in any way as far as I recall.

Yes.

Based on the evidence we have avilable. And the opinion is that of a forum posting medical professional. Not every post needs trigger warnings.

Because the subject matter is way different. Its too reductive just to say that any opinion on here can be garbage (although you are correct). For example, there are posters on here who watch lots of our prospects play a ton of games, and while their opinions can be wrong on these prospects, they at least, on the face of it, have available to them most of the information necessary to judge these prospects (i.e., their on ice play). The same is not true for judging our medical staff. Again, most posters don't have the requisite medical knowledge or experience, and even if they do, they almost never have the essential information necessary to make a reasonable judgement (i.e., x-rays, MRIs, physical inspections, etc.), and even if both of the first two points are true, most posters don't even know what a reasonable or normal standard of care is for medical practitioners in this field.

Should every single one of those posts start with "I am not a professional scout and I dont have access to all the information a professional scout would have."

The expected standard for a NHL teams medical department is to be way better than what the average is.

 

[F A N]

It's the logical choice. Don't force a coach that wants out to stay here because of a contractual obligation.

I don't disagree with this premise but then why negotiate a team option? Unless the option year is for so much money where Tocchet would very much like the option to be picked up, the team option is something the team negotiated. And if there is a significant payment going to Tocchet if the team option isn't picked up, it's even more irresponsible not to pick up the option. The Canucks could have easily rewarded Tocchet with a 1-2 year extension last summer and replaced that option year.

If Tocchet had another year left on his contract instead of a team option, would we be talking about mutually parting ways if Tocchet doesn't want to stay? It's possible but I don't think so? We'll more likely be talking about whether Tocchet would coach out the final year of his contract. How often do NHL head coaches under contract be allowed to leave for an opportunity elsewhere if the team wants him to stay? I can't think of a situation.

 

[me2]

Coaching and medical staff here do have a habit of playing injured players until the injury forces the player out.

 

[Hodgy]

I think where we differ for medical is we hear that Pettersson has as you said patellar tendinitis (funny enough I get that semi often from Volleyball), online there is infinite information about this. We can google it see how to treat it, and a timeline. A lot of time we can even figure out how serious it was because of the timeline. If it does take too long we can note it.

I say note it, only because as I said before I think you will always have one offs, and stuff can go wrong even if you do everything right.

But I use that as one data point... then I look at Demko... I google that and look into it, there is another data point. Then I look at Hughes, and in the real time you had people questioning his return then sure enough... he makes it worse, so there is another.

Again I would agree one offs will happen and I would not suggest bad practice from that. Hell I have a doctor friend who had a client in his exam have a freak accident. Wouldn't suggest it was his fault. But one the second third and fourth pile up... I ask questions.

The avatar is a contestant from the TV show so you think you can dance Courtney Galiano

I think its pretty dangerous though to draw any medical conclusions based on just Google research. Not saying that people shouldn't inform themselves, nor that people shouldn't discuss and speculate, only that drawing any concrete conclusions doesn't seem reasonable when you don't have all the facts nor are medically educated. I used the example previously, but the documentary "Zeitgeist" proved pretty conclusively that someone can absolutely convince tons of people that a totally bogus theory is true. In that case, it was the theory that 911 was an inside job. And it just shows that when people don't have access to all of the information, and don't have the requisite competency (in this case, engineering), they very easily draw terrible conclusions. Like, people were absolutely eating up the idea that jet fuel couldn't melt the structure of the twin towers, for example, and that's because these people have no f***ing competency in the subject. And, let's be real, like 95% plus of the posters on here are the same in that they have no competency in the medical field.

Yes.

Based on the evidence we have avilable. And the opinion is that of a forum posting medical professional. Not every post needs trigger warnings.

Should every single one of those posts start with "I am not a professional scout and I dont have access to all the information a professional scout would have."

The expected standard for a NHL teams medical department is to be way better than what the average is.

I just fundamentally disagree that a person, who is a dedicated hockey fan, who watches and follows the sport very closely, and who has a ton of publicly available data and information available to them regarding the sport, and who criticizes hockey players or managers of a hockey team, after watching and following these players for years and analyzing the available data, is very comparable to that same person criticizing a team's medical staff where that person has very little medical information available to them and lack the required expertise to even analyze that information. The situations obviously aren't analogous, and that's why I'd expect qualifications in one to be used far other than in the other. Not to say information qualifiers shouldn't sometimes be used when criticizing a player or manager, and in fact, they often are used. For example, if a GM doesn't sign a free agent, it is often acknowledged that the free agent may not have signed with that GM's team.

 

[racerjoe]

I think its pretty dangerous though to draw any medical conclusions based on just Google research. Not saying that people shouldn't inform themselves, nor that people shouldn't discuss and speculate, only that drawing any concrete conclusions doesn't seem reasonable when you don't have all the facts nor are medically educated. I used the example previously, but the documentary "Zeitgeist" proved pretty conclusively that someone can absolutely convince tons of people that a totally bogus theory is true. In that case, it was the theory that 911 was an inside job. And it just shows that when people don't have access to all of the information, and don't have the requisite competency (in this case, engineering), they very easily draw terrible conclusions. Like, people were absolutely eating up the idea that jet fuel couldn't melt the structure of the twin towers, for example, and that's because these people have no f***ing competency in the subject. And, let's be real, like 95% plus of the posters on here are the same in that they have no competency in the medical field.




I just fundamentally disagree that a person, who is a dedicated hockey fan, who watches and follows the sport very closely, and who has a ton of publicly available data and information available to them regarding the sport, and who criticizes hockey players or managers of a hockey team, after watching and following these players for years and analyzing the available data, is very comparable to that same person criticizing a team's medical staff where that person has very little medical information available to them and lack the required expertise to even analyze that information. The situations obviously aren't analogous, and that's why I'd expect qualifications in one to be used far other than in the other. Not to say information qualifiers shouldn't sometimes be used when criticizing a player or manager, and in fact, they often are used. For example, if a GM doesn't sign a free agent, it is often acknowledged that the free agent may not have signed with that GM's team.

I actually remember that documentary. I think there was a few out there very similar.

I would say in general that is correct, but I also think if you don't ask question and just assume what you are hearing is right because "experts" you get what we have in Russia with their media, or what certain presidents seem to be trying here as well.

Truth is we don't know anything in these discussions 100% but if you are not looking and going there is a lot of coincidences. We should be questioning them at this point for sure. And yes there is a chance we are wrong.

 

[lawrence]

I’m starting to get tired of this management team.

We go from 6 all stars ok….

Boeser Petey, miller, lindholm, heck we even had a 38 goal scorer in kuzmenko…. too heading into the the summer losing boeser for nothing, unlikely any names will sign with Vancouver our only good player upfront is Elias pettersson whois struggling, tochet not coming back, smyl is gone, Ian Clark not even our coach everything just sucks garbage now.

 

[I am toxic]

I’m starting to get tired of this management team.

We go from 6 all stars ok….

Boeser Petey, miller, lindholm, heck we even had a 38 goal scorer in kuzmenko…. too heading into the the summer losing boeser for nothing, unlikely any names will sign with Vancouver our only good player upfront is Elias pettersson whois struggling, tochet not coming back, smyl is gone, Ian Clark not even our coach everything just sucks garbage now.

Quinn Hughes

Checkmate

 

[4th line culture]

I’m starting to get tired of this management team.

We go from 6 all stars ok….

Boeser Petey, miller, lindholm, heck we even had a 38 goal scorer in kuzmenko…. too heading into the the summer losing boeser for nothing, unlikely any names will sign with Vancouver our only good player upfront is Elias pettersson whois struggling, tochet not coming back, smyl is gone, Ian Clark not even our coach everything just sucks garbage now.

With a big summer it'll all turn around

 

[David71]

jimmy rutherford is a ruthless kind of person whatever he says he will do it. man speaks the truth he will do the unthinkable this offseason weather fans LIKE IT OR NOT.