End of Season Media Availability - Management ( 10 PST)

[Nick Lang]

When Rutherford weighs in, it's usual to soften up 'Canuck Nation' for the 'inevitable'. Like when he said one of either Miller or Pettersson 'had to go'. And then when it became obvious that it was going to be Miller--he warned the fans and the media that the return might be 'underwhelming'.

So when he says that with Quinn Hughes, 'it won't be about money, but rather the opportunity to 'play with his brothers', he's only preparing fans for the worst.

Two more years (or maybe less) in VanCity, he'll be joining his brothers in Jersey; or the infinitesimal chance that Rutherford acquires the Hughes boys from the Devils and he stays put.

I know Rutherford is being excoriated in Vancouver and around the league. And the Hockey Writers website is trying to whip up a frenzy over 'tampering'.

As for me, I find Rutherford's candor to be a refreshing change in this market. Fans and the media deserve 'the truth'--whether it's 'good, bad or ugly'.

There is also the third option here which no one seems to be able to comprehend. As far as I know Quinn has never said he needs to be playing with his brothers in two years time. He is a hockey player first, a Norris trophy winner, and a hart candidate (or at least he should be). Playing with his brothers I'm sure is not his only concern and he may very well sign in Vancouver with the understanding that if we don't make waves he will ask to be moved. I think this whole narrative of the Devils in two years is quite pre-mature and selling #43 short.

 

[Canucker]

I agree that Rutherford is trying to thread the needle. Sometimes the message gets confused.

For example, the idea that Pettersson is not dialed in as a professional athlete even though he posted a 102 point season before they tried to "reprogram him" is just... well, it makes it seem like these guys are dinosaurs. He could earn his paycheck just doing that and he wouldn't need to change a thing.

They value too much the things that don't matter, imo. They also overvalue their own perception of the game. Like does it matter that Pettersson works out how they want, is aggressive on the ice like JT, all while producing like a 2nd liner? Is that change worth it? Or, could their method be wrong and they have a worse player because of it? The results speak.

Hughes is an anomaly. He plays a non-standard style, even to them, but he's so committed and effective that they can't question it. He is above their criticism. If that's where Pettersson has to get to get them to back off, I just don't know...

You could be right, its hard to say not knowing all the intimate details of how EP actually approaches the game...maybe they think he's leaving some talent untapped and want to try and extract it? But management and coaches are kind of in lockstep about EP and think there are some bad habits around his preparation...but its hard to outright dismiss after his lackluster play for the better part of the last 2 seasons. Personally I think they wanted him to add some muscle mass last off-season and be it because of his knee, or his genetics, or his training habits it didn't happen and they let him know it...but thats just my opinion.

 

[Raistlin]

OK. What JR should have said is something to the effect: "Pettersson and Miller have a wonderful relationship. There is no dysfunction in the room; and we're not trading either guy".

Or, Quinn Hughes loves it in Vancouver and wants to finish his career here.....and all the speculation to the contrary about him wanting to play with his brothers, is just media fluff".

Don't worry, be happy. Apparently that's enough of a sop for some on these Boards, who love it when the President of Hockey OPs offers them 'soothers' instead of the ' hard truth'.

As Jack Nicolson put in "A Few Good Men'--"You can't handle the truth!"

fans have evolved on how we want to consume our pastime.

some here want our PoHo to act as the MC in sports theatre. to say "truth", get clicks and be entertained with the circus, survey the media frenzy going over drive, enough fodder for the whole off-season. This is modern fan immersion perhaps, the self is at the center, the goal is to get satisfaction from immediate answers.

some here wants to see an operation function. wants the franchise player to be comfortable, content that their experience is to be that of an outside spectator, the goal is to observe an improving product over the long term.

there is no right or wrong way towards being a fan. just interesting how we have different preferences.

 

[Canucker]

Yes, it is something everyone already understands. Yes, Quinn has been asked about it before. So why bring it up again unprompted to re-kindle this circus of a topic, and force Quinn into more uncomfortable conversations?

Just say they want to re-sign Quinn (of course) and that they'll do everything they can to retain him. That's all anyone was expecting them to say.

As I've said before, it's in keeping with JR's MO of stirring up the pot with topics that steer away from management's roster-building mistakes. In January/February he went on a self-aggrandizing media tour pretty much to just throw Petey under the bus and absolve himself of any responsibility. This is what he does.

He's already sowing the seeds to the media/public: "We couldn't have re-signed Quinn, he wanted to leave!"

I don't think he really needed to "steer" the conversation, the media seemed fixated on the Miller/EP drama. And the seeds have already been sowed about QH leaving, its all about "doing whatever they need to do to keep Quinn happy" in the media, I think management understands that as well and will try to do whatever they can to keep him happy, but it doesn't guarantee a positive outcome...and I'm not sure how management gets blamed if QH does bolt to NJ?

 

[Hodgy]

So then can't our criticisms of the medical staff be the same way?

Yes, it can. But basically no one is qualifying their criticism in that way. And the lack of information is a far greater concern for criticism of the medical team vs. management for the reasons I have given.

 

[racerjoe]

Yes, it can. But basically no one is qualifying their criticism in that way. And the lack of information is a far greater concern for criticism of the medical team vs. management for the reasons I have given.

I disagree... I think on both we lack information. I have absolutely changed my mind on things as more information comes out as I think anyone should.

However we don't know equal amounts for both. we might even have more information for injuries based on previous cases. But again I fully admit we don't have a full outlook for either.

 

[me2]

When Rutherford weighs in, it's usual to soften up 'Canuck Nation' for the 'inevitable'. Like when he said one of either Miller or Pettersson 'had to go'. And then when it became obvious that it was going to be Miller--he warned the fans and the media that the return might be 'underwhelming'.

So when he says that with Quinn Hughes, 'it won't be about money, but rather the opportunity to 'play with his brothers', he's only preparing fans for the worst.

Two more years (or maybe less) in VanCity, he'll be joining his brothers in Jersey; or the infinitesimal chance that Rutherford acquires the Hughes boys from the Devils and he stays put.

I know Rutherford is being excoriated in Vancouver and around the league. And the Hockey Writers website is trying to whip up a frenzy over 'tampering'.

As for me, I find Rutherford's candor to be a refreshing change in this market. Fans and the media deserve 'the truth'--whether it's 'good, bad or ugly'.

Let's wait and see if there is a tampering penalty is.

 

[racerjoe]

Let's wait and see if there is a tampering penalty is.

Didn't it just get announced there wasn't going to be one?

 

[me2]

Didn't it just get announced there wasn't going to be one?

That's good news. League takes pitty on us.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You could be right, its hard to say not knowing all the intimate details of how EP actually approaches the game...maybe they think he's leaving some talent untapped and want to try and extract it? But management and coaches are kind of in lockstep about EP and think there are some bad habits around his preparation...but its hard to outright dismiss after his lackluster play for the better part of the last 2 seasons. Personally I think they wanted him to add some muscle mass last off-season and be it because of his knee, or his genetics, or his training habits it didn't happen and they let him know it...but thats just my opinion.

It's hard to dismiss now, after he has failed in the last 1.5 seasons. At a time when he has been most influenced by management and coach.

What type of workout, or what lack of professionalism, could he have had to produce 102 points, I wonder?

 

[pitseleh]

I’d accept honesty as an explanation if management were forthright about their role in this season’s failings. Mike Gillis was honest in that way.

Basically their entire explanation for what went wrong was Pettersson. There was an issue with two players that bled into the dressing room - Miller worked hard to fix it, and they love the guy, but it didn’t work out. Pettersson didn’t come in prepared. He wouldn’t play two way hockey. Sorry, but you’re dumb if you think that’s the entire reason the season went off the rails, and even dumber if you kept him around if he could single-handedly cause that to happen.

The Hughes-brothers thing was just dumb. Maybe it’s nothing but if Hughes is on the fence about staying, it’s not going to help and might hurt.

 

[credulous]

I agree with that. Some of the reporters should have asked about the actual roster construction and transactions that management made.

Of course, the Petey/Miller feud pretty much was the topic of the season and it's not surprising it sucked up the most oxygen. Going further, JR also made sure to milk that topic as much as possible for the purpose of deflecting any blame about roster construction away from management and more onto the feud causing issues all year.

for all the criticism the media get here they are the tamest housecats when actually given an opportunity to do their jobs

i would have loved someone to ask about whether they thought their roster on october 1st was actually good enough or if they planned to "go all in" at the deadline or even to ask why the team and it's billionaire property developer needs a partner to foot some or all of the bill for a fairly modest facility but instead we just got softball after softball about whether things went the way they would have liked. of course they didn't; what a stupid question

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

for all the criticism the media get here they are the tamest housecats when actually given an opportunity to do their jobs

i would have loved someone to ask about whether they thought their roster on october 1st was actually good enough or if they planned to "go all in" at the deadline or even to ask why the team and it's billionaire property developer needs a partner to foot some or all of the bill for a fairly modest facility but instead we just got softball after softball about whether things went the way they would have liked. of course they didn't; what a stupid question

It’s mainly because if anyone has the balls to ask hard questions, they get banned.

 

[bossram]

for all the criticism the media get here they are the tamest housecats when actually given an opportunity to do their jobs

i would have loved someone to ask about whether they thought their roster on october 1st was actually good enough or if they planned to "go all in" at the deadline or even to ask why the team and it's billionaire property developer needs a partner to foot some or all of the bill for a fairly modest facility but instead we just got softball after softball about whether things went the way they would have liked. of course they didn't; what a stupid question

Bolded is why the team constantly crying about "media negativity" or whatever is so pathetic. The media covering the team today provides Charmin soft coverage. Literally any positive development is amplified like they've suddenly made it back on the path to the yellow brick road. Back in the days of Botch and Willes (and before JPat was excommunicated by CMac), the team actually had to answer real questions.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

You guys see honesty with Rutherford - I see a guy who has no restraint and just says whatever he wants without thinking of consequences.

I'm sure other GMs are loving all his "honesty". Zero leverage.

Awful negotiating tactic.

 

[racerjoe]

I’d accept honesty as an explanation if management were forthright about their role in this season’s failings. Mike Gillis was honest in that way.

Basically their entire explanation for what went wrong was Pettersson. There was an issue with two players that bled into the dressing room - Miller worked hard to fix it, and they love the guy, but it didn’t work out. Pettersson didn’t come in prepared. He wouldn’t play two way hockey. Sorry, but you’re dumb if you think that’s the entire reason the season went off the rails, and even dumber if you kept him around if he could single-handedly cause that to happen.

The Hughes-brothers thing was just dumb. Maybe it’s nothing but if Hughes is on the fence about staying, it’s not going to help and might hurt.

This is also wrong by them... Petey is really good defensively, was before this management group and will be after, and that was not even what fell a part for him this season where he was bad.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I have to say that the fish rots from the head and I think that the mixed messaging is a result of them having to be the meat shield for an incompetent and entirely dysfuctional ownership group.

With that said, I can't say I like how often they keep going to the well of using media pressure.

The unbearably awkward thing with Boudreau was one thing, it needed to happen and it was clear they were shaming our dog shit ownership into doing the right thing.

But to keep going to the same well.

--

I also wonder if, much like Trump's opinion of his subordinates was often driven by what the pundits on fox news were saying ( cause that's how an intelligent person runs a country, right?), perhaps there's a similar pressure on our braintrust.

Like it's not enough to talk to him directly, they need to give themselves outs in the media because our owners use that discourse as a guide? Just a thought I had.
-

I will say that it feels like there is a lack of accountability in our management and perhaps coaching structure.

Like, Tocchet has a Jack Adams year, the next year goes badly, and now we're needing to beg him to stay because things were 'hard' this year?
All things being equal, do we even want to align ourselves with someone who is a bad year away from jumping ship?

Our management goes on and on about Petey and how he's the big problem.

I mean, you signed him to that big deal, how are you so powerless over a 26 year old Swedish hockey player?

There are aspects that feel a bit dinosaurish in how they approach things.

Like, the old coaching idea from my youth that the coach would come in and just berate everybody into doing things his way.

Well, modern players (and youth) don't respond to that (which is a good sign of an evolving society). So maybe they need to learn what makes Petey tick instead of insisting on him turning into a North American outlier in Sidney Crosby.

Maybe instead of telling everyone to shut the f*** up and do what they want, they need to focus on WHY there is such disharmony in the dressing room, and why it feels like so many players have been working at cross purposes.

It feels like some of this is a failure of leadership.

They're camoflaged by how utterly pathetic Benning was. Like, if you have a teacher who's terrible at working with dyslexic kids, you're not gonna notice that if the previous teacher kept showing up to work without pants. You're just going to be grateful the teacher seems like a functional adult.

So some accountability and curiousity would be a good thing.

I think it's really unlikely that Petey is just suddenly bad, nor do I think our team is in a bad place, unless we make those things so.

If someone keeps trying to jam Petey the round peg into the square hole, it's not going to work.

If they keep dodging blame for the way they built the team, or perhaps not bringing in the right professional help, and the impacts that those had then it's not going to work.
-

I guess if I was going doomer, my concern would be that the stuff around Tocchet leaving is camouflage for him saying, 'I have options and this place is unfixably dysfunctional due to ownership' because that's the sort of thing that a coach could never say and would need to talk around.

Could also conceivably explain keeping our UFAs when it seemed like we might trade them.
Though I will say I think some of that is hindsight bias.

At the time of the deadline we didn't know that.

1. Petey and Chytil would be hurt.

And,

2. St Louis would go on an unprecedented run.

And even then we STILL were like 6 points out. I mean, if St Louis goes like 9-3 instead of 12-0 then that's us on the last day of the season playing for a playoff spot.

-
Anyhow, everything that could go wrong did and we were STILL almost a playoff team which is worlds better than we were two years ago.

Also, we can't control any of this so perhaps stop going the doomer hair's on fire route and try to either find joy in the journey or get off the ride.

 

[Hodgy]

Bolded is why the team constantly crying about "media negativity" or whatever is so pathetic. The media covering the team today provides Charmin soft coverage. Literally any positive development is amplified like they've suddenly made it back on the path to the yellow brick road. Back in the days of Botch and Willes (and before JPat was excommunicated by CMac), the team actually had to answer real questions.

Tony Gallager comes to mind as well.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yes, it can. But basically no one is qualifying their criticism in that way. And the lack of information is a far greater concern for criticism of the medical team vs. management for the reasons I have given.

It is a given.

We are always working with limited information.

Every scouting report a random poster here posts is garbage.

Every analysis of should something be a penalty or not is shit on these forums.


Why we need to hold this one subject to a higher criteria?

 

[bossram]

Tony Gallager comes to mind as well.

You're right. I had in him in mind but wrote Willes for some reason.

 

[JT Milker]

Awful negotiating tactic.

That press conference will have zero impact on trades, contracts, etc. It’s a show for the fans.

 

[Hodgy]

It is a given.

It isn't a given. There are a number of posters on here that have absolutely said the Canucks medical team sucks just based on the injuries Canuck players have had and their healing times, and they aren't qualifying this opinion in any way as far as I recall.

We are always working with limited information.

Every scouting report a random poster here posts is garbage.

Every analysis of should something be a penalty or not is shit on these forums.


Why we need to hold this one subject to a higher criteria?

Because the subject matter is way different. Its too reductive just to say that any opinion on here can be garbage (although you are correct). For example, there are posters on here who watch lots of our prospects play a ton of games, and while their opinions can be wrong on these prospects, they at least, on the face of it, have available to them most of the information necessary to judge these prospects (i.e., their on ice play). The same is not true for judging our medical staff. Again, most posters don't have the requisite medical knowledge or experience, and even if they do, they almost never have the essential information necessary to make a reasonable judgement (i.e., x-rays, MRIs, physical inspections, etc.), and even if both of the first two points are true, most posters don't even know what a reasonable or normal standard of care is for medical practitioners in this field.

 

[Hodgy]

So then can't our criticisms of the medical staff be the same way?

First off, posters aren't qualifying their criticisms of the medical staff in this way, as far as I recall. And second, sure, you can qualify any conclusions you may have about the medical staff, and I think that's fine, but I also think there just isn't the same difference in information between judging management, for example, and our medical team, plus there are the other two issues I raised (posters don't have the requisite medical knowledge or experience, or know what the reasonable standard of care, in general, for medical practitioners of this type because perfection absolutely isn't it), so qualifications on conclusions regarding a medical team are going to be far larger in scope and material than qualifications of a management team, and it gets to a point where the qualifications are so large and material that the conclusions themselves are not overly meaningful.

 

[racerjoe]

First off, posters aren't qualifying their criticisms of the medical staff in this way, as far as I recall. And second, sure, you can qualify any conclusions you may have about the medical staff, and I think that's fine, but I also think there just isn't the same difference in information between judging management, for example, and our medical team, plus there are the other two issues I raised (posters don't have the requisite medical knowledge or experience, or know what the reasonable standard of care, in general, for medical practitioners of this type because perfection absolutely isn't it), so qualifications on conclusions regarding a medical team are going to be far larger in scope and material than qualifications of a management team, and it gets to a point where the qualifications are so large and material that the conclusions themselves are not overly meaningful.

But we don't qualify our opinions by saying I am not an NHL scout (they will have more information talking to players coaches and families seeing players live than any of us) an NHL GM, or whatever else we talk about here. Any subject will have things that we just don't know. The Medical field shouldn't be different and in fact I would argue should be more open. There are people here who will have seen many similar cases either to friends family or even their own clients. Not only that, but we can look up previous cases, we can look up other NHL players, there is still a lot of information that is at our fingertips.

I have no problem then going but sure there is still information we are missing that we do not know. But I personally at least and I assume others are the same, are willing to change my opinion as more information becomes available.

 

[Nick Lang]

You could be right, its hard to say not knowing all the intimate details of how EP actually approaches the game...maybe they think he's leaving some talent untapped and want to try and extract it? But management and coaches are kind of in lockstep about EP and think there are some bad habits around his preparation...but its hard to outright dismiss after his lackluster play for the better part of the last 2 seasons. Personally I think they wanted him to add some muscle mass last off-season and be it because of his knee, or his genetics, or his training habits it didn't happen and they let him know it...but thats just my opinion.

To me it's a little more nuanced. Allvin is a hard ass and kind of expects the very best out of everyone. He's constantly challenging the players to be more professional, to have better focus and commitment, and to always be getting better. It's not wrong but it's hard to get buy in from everyone, especially young kids who have great life success without going to the elite upper echelon of NHL greats. Now in Petterson's case not only is he expecting him to be a great pro he wants him to be one of the very best top NHL players bringing it every game and ultimately being a top 10 player like a Sidney Crosby or Jack Eichel.

It's a tall order though. I don't think Petterson has bad habits in comparison to everyone else per se, just that management wants him to be heads and tails above everyone else and is trying to motivate that through a spotlight and direct challenge. Whether that's the way is an age old question. He's still fitter, faster, and has better endurance than most of the league as is, contrary to his paltry 58 points per 82 games, which has almost become a pathetic season in some people's minds.