End of Season Media Availability - Management ( 10 PST)

[Raistlin]

Beyond tampering, Rutherford did Hughes a disservice with comment about brothers

The Vancouver Canucks’ president of hockey operations may have committed some light tampering, while also throwing his captain under the bus.

www.vancouverisawesome.com

this guy completely sums up what JR did yesterday, and why based on what happens everytime he tries to communicate and fails, its high time for him to retire.

 

[sting101]

Zadorov X
Miller X
Tocchet X
Foote X
Boeser X
Garland
Demko
Hughes

Didnt expect Willander but maybe need to add him to the list

Don't worry guys we will still have the great leadership and play of Pettersson and Hronek to carry the torch for the team.

And Aquilini JR to....... Make cAnucks Great Again

What a gong show

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

You know when you are talking with someone who is aging and they start to:

• Have no filter
• Repeat themselves
• Go on and on

This is where Rutherford is at right now.

And for the Nucks and their fans, that is not a good thing.

Get him out of office yesterday. Allvin can take over in the interim while they search for a suitable replacement. He's long over the hill and could actively start reaching Benning territory if he costs us picks

 

[sting101]

Even if Rutherford does get fined, there’s a bigger issue: he opened a big can of worms for his captain. By telling the media that Hughes wants to play with his brothers, it will undoubtedly raise questions for Hughes in the coming months.

Hughes has said before that playing with his brothers would be “really cool.”

“Of course, everyone wants to play with their brothers in the NHL. That’s the dream,” said Hughes to The Athletic’s Thomas Drance back in 2021. “You ask the Tkachuks or the Staals, they actually did it.”

But Hughes immediately followed that up by expressing his commitment to the Canucks.

“I like Vancouver a lot and that’s why I signed for six years. I’m really grateful to the Aquilini family, they’ve taken care of me and my family, too,” said Hughes. “I like it here, so we’ll see how it goes. I’m committed here long term. I love it here and I want to win here. There’s something about the team that drafts you. You want to do well for them. I feel like I owe them my best, so that’s what I’m going to do.”

That was long before Hughes was named captain of the Canucks and, in the years since, Hughes has repeatedly emphasized his commitment to staying in Vancouver.

While fans might have speculated about Hughes leaving in free agency in two years when his contract is up, there was no tangible reason to suspect that he wanted to be anywhere other than Vancouver. And then Rutherford provided one.

That immediately led to headlines like, “Canucks GM: Quinn Hughes wants to play with Devils stars.”

In other words, Rutherford provided fuel for the "he wants out" fire. You can bet that the next time Hughes speaks to the media, he’s going to be asked about Rutherford’s comments, forcing him to reiterate once again that he loves Vancouver and will never leave, like he’s the boyfriend of an insecure partner.

At a time when Hughes has said all he wants is to get away from the game, shut off his phone, and relax — especially after a season that was so tumultuous — the drama won't let him be.

Really, the responsibility is on Rutherford and Allvin to build a Cup-contending team to keep Hughes in Vancouver rather than pie-in-the-sky ideas of acquiring his brothers. And it would be helpful if they avoided repeatedly putting their star players in uncomfortable positions with their comments.

Yep what a joke

 

[I am toxic]

People need to understand what a "truism" is

Saying the sky is blue is a truism

When I tell you the sky is blue, I am not being honest. It's a truism. Like, 1+1=2. I am not giving up something honest. I am not engaging in honest debate, trying to convey useful information

I am just deflecting attention from where you stepped in the shit I didn't pick up after my dog

Next week we will discuss "transparency" - no, it has nothing to do with mom's and dad's who have selected non-binary gender roles

But when someone tells you that's as clear as mud mixed with shit, well that's the opposite of transparency, like the "clarification"* on Petey's knee

* the air quotes mean that I mean the opposite of clarification. Pretty mean, huh

 

[DFAC]

You guys see honesty with Rutherford - I see a guy who has no restraint and just says whatever he wants without thinking of consequences.

I'm sure other GMs are loving all his "honesty". Zero leverage.

 

[Nick Lang]

There has already been a worrying trend developing where he disappears for unnaturally long stretches of time due to a variety of issues. All three coaches have been puzzled by his long stretches of weak play to the point they have cut his ice time drastically without being to explain his drop off in play.

I do believe undoubtedly he gets by on a large amount of talent, but from all the evidence around us including Quinn Hughes words my conclusion is that...

No, EP has not shown he has been able to put in the work necessary to be the best version he can be especially when he has to push through the "hard".


Again, how can people watch Quinn and his dedication to improvement in his weakest areas year after year after year and still say Petey is fine.

Do you disagree that if Petey had Quinn's work ethic that he would be a top 5-10 player in the NHL? Or do you think Petey is working adequately hard to improve his game and it's just bad luck/psychological he has not been able to get stronger on his skates or that his shot has gotten progressively worse over the last number of years?

I think this post is largely full of ape poop. Seriously, who in the NHL aside from maybe MacKinnon, Crosby, and McDavid, put in the dedication Hughes does? To compare EP in this regard is silly and useless. Yes, his preparation has now been called out. Obviously it's not a strength and the issue is fully on the table. All NHL players improve on facets of their game as they progress. He's 26 years old and certainly has the ability to do it. If everybody in the league had Quinn's work ethic, they would all be better. Well yeah ... no duh.

JR… your honesty might be an ideal trait for running a mom-and-pop shop in places like Carolina or Pittsburgh.

Unfortunately, you are now running a business in a much larger market under intense media scrutiny.

Learn to communicate with more care and strategy or just retire if you’ll continue to have trouble keeping filter on your mouth.

It really feels like people are totally blowing stuff out of proportion here like some are wont to do. It's a no account team wrap up from a hockey team in Western Canada. Like who really cares what their team president muses about. Nobody, that's who. I found it all pretty much what I expected. Nothing new at all really. Just a state of address of the team going into the off-season of which nothing new was really said. People love to panic and call NHL management teams down around here.

yeah i don't get it either. everything rutherford says is self serving. he's not honest and transparent he's a snake oil salesman painting a narrative

Personally I found it honest and exactly what I would have said, and I appreciate the transparency. He could have glossed over the Miller issue in many different ways. Instead he acknowledged that Miller was central to our plans and a very good player who is extremely hard to replace in this league. He also admitted it was completely unexpected and obviously a huge obstacle on the ice. He was also 100% honest when asked about Hughes. Everything he said was true. I would rather that than a bunch of smoke blown up our collective asses.

I honestly don't know what some people expect. People just like patting themselves on the back here about how much smarter they are than all the league professionals.

 

[VanJack]

Even if Rutherford does get fined, there’s a bigger issue: he opened a big can of worms for his captain. By telling the media that Hughes wants to play with his brothers, it will undoubtedly raise questions for Hughes in the coming months.

Hughes has said before that playing with his brothers would be “really cool.”

“Of course, everyone wants to play with their brothers in the NHL. That’s the dream,” said Hughes to The Athletic’s Thomas Drance back in 2021. “You ask the Tkachuks or the Staals, they actually did it.”

But Hughes immediately followed that up by expressing his commitment to the Canucks.

“I like Vancouver a lot and that’s why I signed for six years. I’m really grateful to the Aquilini family, they’ve taken care of me and my family, too,” said Hughes. “I like it here, so we’ll see how it goes. I’m committed here long term. I love it here and I want to win here. There’s something about the team that drafts you. You want to do well for them. I feel like I owe them my best, so that’s what I’m going to do.”

That was long before Hughes was named captain of the Canucks and, in the years since, Hughes has repeatedly emphasized his commitment to staying in Vancouver.

While fans might have speculated about Hughes leaving in free agency in two years when his contract is up, there was no tangible reason to suspect that he wanted to be anywhere other than Vancouver. And then Rutherford provided one.

That immediately led to headlines like, “Canucks GM: Quinn Hughes wants to play with Devils stars.”

In other words, Rutherford provided fuel for the "he wants out" fire. You can bet that the next time Hughes speaks to the media, he’s going to be asked about Rutherford’s comments, forcing him to reiterate once again that he loves Vancouver and will never leave, like he’s the boyfriend of an insecure partner.

At a time when Hughes has said all he wants is to get away from the game, shut off his phone, and relax — especially after a season that was so tumultuous — the drama won't let him be.

Really, the responsibility is on Rutherford and Allvin to build a Cup-contending team to keep Hughes in Vancouver rather than pie-in-the-sky ideas of acquiring his brothers. And it would be helpful if they avoided repeatedly putting their star players in uncomfortable positions with their comments.

Yep what a joke

When Rutherford weighs in, it's usual to soften up 'Canuck Nation' for the 'inevitable'. Like when he said one of either Miller or Pettersson 'had to go'. And then when it became obvious that it was going to be Miller--he warned the fans and the media that the return might be 'underwhelming'.

So when he says that with Quinn Hughes, 'it won't be about money, but rather the opportunity to 'play with his brothers', he's only preparing fans for the worst.

Two more years (or maybe less) in VanCity, he'll be joining his brothers in Jersey; or the infinitesimal chance that Rutherford acquires the Hughes boys from the Devils and he stays put.

I know Rutherford is being excoriated in Vancouver and around the league. And the Hockey Writers website is trying to whip up a frenzy over 'tampering'.

As for me, I find Rutherford's candor to be a refreshing change in this market. Fans and the media deserve 'the truth'--whether it's 'good, bad or ugly'.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You guys see honesty with Rutherford - I see a guy who has no restraint and just says whatever he wants without thinking of consequences.

I'm sure other GMs are loving all his "honesty". Zero leverage.

Our team continues to be the laughing stock of the league, Rutherford needs to go. Wish he could take our dumbass owner with him.

 

[Raistlin]

I think this post is largely full of ape poop. Seriously, who in the NHL aside from maybe MacKinnon, Crosby, and McDavid, put in the dedication Hughes does? To compare EP in this regard is silly and useless. Yes, his preparation has now been called out. Obviously it's not a strength and the issue is fully on the table. All NHL players improve on facets of their game as they progress. He's 26 years old and certainly has the ability to do it. If everybody in the league had Quinn's work ethic, they would all be better. Well yeah ... no duh.



It really feels like people are totally blowing stuff out of proportion here like some are wont to do. It's a no account team wrap up from a hockey team in Western Canada. Like who really cares what their team president muses about. Nobody, that's who. I found it all pretty much what I expected. Nothing new at all really. Just a state of address of the team going into the off-season of which nothing new was really said. People love to panic and call NHL management teams down around here.



Personally I found it honest and exactly what I would have said, and I appreciate the transparency. He could have glossed over the Miller issue in many different ways. Instead he acknowledged that Miller was central to our plans and a very good player who is extremely hard to replace in this league. He also admitted it was completely unexpected and obviously a huge obstacle on the ice. He was also 100% honest when asked about Hughes. Everything he said was true. I would rather that than a bunch of smoke blown up our collective asses.

I honestly don't know what some people expect. People just like patting themselves on the back here about how much smarter they are than all the league professionals.

So you loaned money(your time) to a guy at the poker table (guy running a sports franchise). He decides he's playing with his cards facing up what the hey, do you,

Give him a nod and a thumbs up for his transparency?

Or

want him to win?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

JR certainly does love stirring up drama, and then later blaming the media for covering the things he said.

This is so true.

 

[Nucky]

You guys see honesty with Rutherford - I see a guy who has no restraint and just says whatever he wants without thinking of consequences.

I'm sure other GMs are loving all his "honesty". Zero leverage.

Exactly, Benning was "honest" too

 

[bossram]

This is so true.

JR: "Quinn wants to leave to play with his brothers, I can't control that"

Media: "Quinn, do you plan to play with your brothers after your contract ends?"

JR: "Why does the media keep asking Quinn about leaving???"

 

[VanJack]

OK. What JR should have said is something to the effect: "Pettersson and Miller have a wonderful relationship. There is no dysfunction in the room; and we're not trading either guy".

Or, Quinn Hughes loves it in Vancouver and wants to finish his career here.....and all the speculation to the contrary about him wanting to play with his brothers, is just media fluff".

Don't worry, be happy. Apparently that's enough of a sop for some on these Boards, who love it when the President of Hockey OPs offers them 'soothers' instead of the ' hard truth'.

As Jack Nicolson put in "A Few Good Men'--"You can't handle the truth!"

 

[Hodgy]

yeah i don't get it either. everything rutherford says is self serving. he's not honest and transparent he's a snake oil salesman painting a narrative

100%. Everything he said was in service of deflecting blame away from him.

I totally agree. But as I said in another post, a lot of how this whole new conference played out was because the media lack any balls to ask any questions which even suggest that management has made any errors. Like on roster construction, or trades, or lack of trading Boeser or Suter, or free agency. Zero questions of this sort. Its actually incredible that no one bothered to ask them about going into the season with four defensemen in your top six that couldn't really move the puck. Which is hilarious, because at the end of the day, the main reason for this media availability was to discuss management's performance, not how each player necessarily played. Like, we had a media availability for the players where you can ask them why they sucked or whatever questions you want to ask. Instead, the media lobbed a bunch of easy questions to JR and Alvin that had almost nothing to do with how they have performed in their roles, but had more to do with the players (e.g., questions about Miller and Pettersson). And sure, probably lots of the things they said about Miller or Pettersson were true, but absolutely, they were also going to be self-serving and deflect the blame on the players rather than their management of the players. Like, sure, Pettersson may not be preparing well enough, and he may not be practicing well enough, or training hard enough - those very well might all be correct, but if they are correct, then why did you sign him to a 100 million dollar contract? That's the question management should be getting.

As an aside, there was a hilarious irony where Alvin recognized that you have to change the messaging to Pettersson if he didn't "get it", but yet they have continued with the exact same public embarrassment messaging to Pettersson over the last year and a half or whatever and that obviously hasn't worked.

 

[Canucker]

JR: "Quinn wants to leave to play with his brothers, I can't control that"

Media: "Quinn, do you plan to play with your brothers after your contract ends?"

JR: "Why does the media keep asking Quinn about leaving???"

Not exactly what he said...“It may not boil down to money with. He said before he wants to play with his brothers, and that would be partly out of our control." and it was in the context of wanting to re-sign him and making sure they had space available to re-sign him, but if he wants to leave to play with his brothers, that is something out of his control...this information was pretty well known before JR made mention about it, so I'm not sure why everyone is having a tizzy over it? It's not like the question hasn't been posed to QH about his future in Vancouver, and the questions won't end until something happens, regardless of what JR says or doesn't say.

 

[Canucker]

I totally agree. But as I said in another post, a lot of how this whole new conference played out was because the media lack any balls to ask any questions which even suggest that management has made any errors. Like on roster construction, or trades, or lack of trading Boeser or Suter, or free agency. Zero questions of this sort. Its actually incredible that no one bothered to ask them about going into the season with four defensemen in your top six that couldn't really move the puck. Which is hilarious, because at the end of the day, the main reason for this media availability was to discuss management's performance, not how each player necessarily played. Like, we had a media availability for the players where you can ask them why they sucked or whatever questions you want to ask. Instead, the media lobbed a bunch of easy questions to JR and Alvin that had almost nothing to do with how they have performed in their roles, but had more to do with the players (e.g., questions about Miller and Pettersson). And sure, probably lots of the things they said about Miller or Pettersson were true, but absolutely, they were also going to be self-serving and deflect the blame on the players rather than their management of the players. Like, sure, Pettersson may not be preparing well enough, and he may not be practicing well enough, or training hard enough - those very well might all be correct, but if they are correct, then why did you sign him to a 100 million dollar contract? That's the question management should be getting.

As an aside, there was a hilarious irony where Alvin recognized that you have to change the messaging to Pettersson if he didn't "get it", but yet they have continued with the exact same public embarrassment messaging to Pettersson over the last year and a half or whatever and that obviously hasn't worked.

They just need to bring back the STH forum...if you want to see some direct, pointed questions thrown at management rather than the media, just get some long waited fans who've shelled out thousands and thousands of dollars over the years...put them in front of the paying public. Especially since prices are going up and product quality has gone down.

 

[Hodgy]

What kind of evidence would have to come out, that realisticly could come out, that would convince you that the medical staff is not up to par?

Part of that is the problem though. Evidence just may never come out for people to draw accurate and reasonable conclusions regarding the competency of our medical team. Again, I don't think I am saying anything contentious by saying that you need all of the following to draw accurate and reasonable conclusions regarding the competency of our medical team: requisite medical training or knowledge in the field; requisite information regarding the injuries (e.g., x-rays, MRIs, physical inspections, etc.); and an accurate understanding of the general standard of care of medical teams in general in the NHL. If you don't have those, then the conclusions you are drawing aren't going to be good ones in my opinion.

I don't mean to say that the Canucks medical team isn't incompetent, or that people can't discuss it. I'm just saying people need to recognize that we aren't really in a position to draw any meaningful conclusions. But that doesn't mean all commentary is invalid or anything. I love reading accounts from medical practitioners on here discussing their thoughts on particular injuries, etc.

After he answers this one, I'd like to know if we can critique GMs or coaches if we have never managed or coached at an NHL level?

Pretty obviously not analogous. I have set out above the three issues with an average hockey fan criticizing the Canucks medical team. Below I will set out why these are less of an issue for an average hockey fan to criticize that fan's management/coaching:

1. There isn't the same lack of information. Posters typically have no idea what tests or physical inspections have been done on a player, or what outside medical experts have been engaged or have recommended. But posters are able to literally watch every game the Canucks play and so have way more information available to them in terms of criticizing management / coaching. But sure, we don't have all information available to us, and in that sense, our criticism should be qualified to reflect that.

2. Sports management isn't a science, and we are fans of hockey, and watch hockey and read about hockey, and so forth, and have different levels of competency and understanding regarding hockey. Generally speaking, we aren't fans of sports medicine; we have zero base of knowledge or competency.

3. Many of us don't just follow the Canucks, but also follow and watch other teams. So we do have some context in terms of how other teams are doing relative to ours. The same degree of familiarity with other teams' medical staff just isn't there.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yeah, thats the rub when they do these press conferences answering questions...JR is trying to give an articulate and honest answer while also being guarded and not wanting to create an outright dramatic mess...he's straddling a line and occasionally crosses over enough to create messaging issues where people can misconstrue the message.

What I took from his comments about EP was that his commitment level just isn't where it needs to be...I'm pretty sure he didn't actually meant that EP wasn't good defensively, he pretty clearly is, but he's not as dialed in of a professional athlete as a Steve Yzerman was, or Sidney Crosby is...or even Quinn Hughes is. He may never be, it might not be in his character, doesn't mean he won't continue to be a very good player, but for him to be the guy who actually earns his $11+m/yr, he's got to keep raising the bar for himself. Personally, I think they are going to evaluate him and his work habits prior to the draft, or July 1st and make a decision on him based on what they're seeing/hearing.

I agree that Rutherford is trying to thread the needle. Sometimes the message gets confused.

For example, the idea that Pettersson is not dialed in as a professional athlete even though he posted a 102 point season before they tried to "reprogram him" is just... well, it makes it seem like these guys are dinosaurs. He could earn his paycheck just doing that and he wouldn't need to change a thing.

They value too much the things that don't matter, imo. They also overvalue their own perception of the game. Like does it matter that Pettersson works out how they want, is aggressive on the ice like JT, all while producing like a 2nd liner? Is that change worth it? Or, could their method be wrong and they have a worse player because of it? The results speak.

Hughes is an anomaly. He plays a non-standard style, even to them, but he's so committed and effective that they can't question it. He is above their criticism. If that's where Pettersson has to get to get them to back off, I just don't know...

 

[bossram]

I totally agree. But as I said in another post, a lot of how this whole new conference played out was because the media lack any balls to ask any questions which even suggest that management has made any errors. Like on roster construction, or trades, or lack of trading Boeser or Suter, or free agency. Zero questions of this sort. Its actually incredible that no one bothered to ask them about going into the season with four defensemen in your top six that couldn't really move the puck. Which is hilarious, because at the end of the day, the main reason for this media availability was to discuss management's performance, not how each player necessarily played. Like, we had a media availability for the players where you can ask them why they sucked or whatever questions you want to ask. Instead, the media lobbed a bunch of easy questions to JR and Alvin that had almost nothing to do with how they have performed in their roles, but had more to do with the players (e.g., questions about Miller and Pettersson). And sure, probably lots of the things they said about Miller or Pettersson were true, but absolutely, they were also going to be self-serving and deflect the blame on the players rather than their management of the players. Like, sure, Pettersson may not be preparing well enough, and he may not be practicing well enough, or training hard enough - those very well might all be correct, but if they are correct, then why did you sign him to a 100 million dollar contract? That's the question management should be getting.

As an aside, there was a hilarious irony where Alvin recognized that you have to change the messaging to Pettersson if he didn't "get it", but yet they have continued with the exact same public embarrassment messaging to Pettersson over the last year and a half or whatever and that obviously hasn't worked.

I agree with that. Some of the reporters should have asked about the actual roster construction and transactions that management made.

Of course, the Petey/Miller feud pretty much was the topic of the season and it's not surprising it sucked up the most oxygen. Going further, JR also made sure to milk that topic as much as possible for the purpose of deflecting any blame about roster construction away from management and more onto the feud causing issues all year.

 

[Hodgy]

I agree with that. Some of the reporters should have asked about the actual roster construction and transactions that management made.

Of course, the Petey/Miller feud pretty much was the topic of the season and it's not surprising it sucked up the most oxygen. Going further, JR also made sure to milk that topic as much as possible for the purpose of deflecting any blame about roster construction away from management and more onto the feud causing issues all year.

Ya, for sure, and he did what they have consistently been doing. But he didn't even have to deflect anything since there were no questions or comments to even deflect. Super easy for him, really.

 

[bossram]

Not exactly what he said...“It may not boil down to money with. He said before he wants to play with his brothers, and that would be partly out of our control." and it was in the context of wanting to re-sign him and making sure they had space available to re-sign him, but if he wants to leave to play with his brothers, that is something out of his control...this information was pretty well known before JR made mention about it, so I'm not sure why everyone is having a tizzy over it? It's not like the question hasn't been posed to QH about his future in Vancouver, and the questions won't end until something happens, regardless of what JR says or doesn't say.

Yes, it is something everyone already understands. Yes, Quinn has been asked about it before. So why bring it up again unprompted to re-kindle this circus of a topic, and force Quinn into more uncomfortable conversations?

Just say they want to re-sign Quinn (of course) and that they'll do everything they can to retain him. That's all anyone was expecting them to say.

As I've said before, it's in keeping with JR's MO of stirring up the pot with topics that steer away from management's roster-building mistakes. In January/February he went on a self-aggrandizing media tour pretty much to just throw Petey under the bus and absolve himself of any responsibility. This is what he does.

He's already sowing the seeds to the media/public: "We couldn't have re-signed Quinn, he wanted to leave!"

 

[racerjoe]

Part of that is the problem though. Evidence just may never come out for people to draw accurate and reasonable conclusions regarding the competency of our medical team. Again, I don't think I am saying anything contentious by saying that you need all of the following to draw accurate and reasonable conclusions regarding the competency of our medical team: requisite medical training or knowledge in the field; requisite information regarding the injuries (e.g., x-rays, MRIs, physical inspections, etc.); and an accurate understanding of the general standard of care of medical teams in general in the NHL. If you don't have those, then the conclusions you are drawing aren't going to be good ones in my opinion.

I don't mean to say that the Canucks medical team isn't incompetent, or that people can't discuss it. I'm just saying people need to recognize that we aren't really in a position to draw any meaningful conclusions. But that doesn't mean all commentary is invalid or anything. I love reading accounts from medical practitioners on here discussing their thoughts on particular injuries, etc.


Pretty obviously not analogous. I have set out above the three issues with an average hockey fan criticizing the Canucks medical team. Below I will set out why these are less of an issue for an average hockey fan to criticize that fan's management/coaching:

1. There isn't the same lack of information. Posters typically have no idea what tests or physical inspections have been done on a player, or what outside medical experts have been engaged or have recommended. But posters are able to literally watch every game the Canucks play and so have way more information available to them in terms of criticizing management / coaching. But sure, we don't have all information available to us, and in that sense, our criticism should be qualified to reflect that.

2. Sports management isn't a science, and we are fans of hockey, and watch hockey and read about hockey, and so forth, and have different levels of competency and understanding regarding hockey. Generally speaking, we aren't fans of sports medicine; we have zero base of knowledge or competency.

3. Many of us don't just follow the Canucks, but also follow and watch other teams. So we do have some context in terms of how other teams are doing relative to ours. The same degree of familiarity with other teams' medical staff just isn't there.

Don't we know just as little or as much about the GM's job, and what happened behind the scenes? Like do you know what happened with JT? No than you can't properly lay blame on anyone... oh you don't know the offers for Beoser... then can't make a comment on that non trade... and so on.

 

[Hodgy]

Don't we know just as little or as much about the GM's job, and what happened behind the scenes? Like do you know what happened with JT? No than you can't properly lay blame on anyone... oh you don't know the offers for Beoser... then can't make a comment on that non trade... and so on.

Like I said, we should qualify our criticisms of management on the basis that we don't have all of the available information.

 

[racerjoe]

Like I said, we should qualify our criticisms of management on the basis that we don't have all of the available information.

So then can't our criticisms of the medical staff be the same way?