Emphasis on drafting speed and skill paying off for New York Rangers

[Mikos87]

When Chris Kreider was drafted it was pretty much known that he was not going to be an NHL player for a while. That there was a good chance that players picked after him would play in the NHL before him was part of the deal.

The same with Dylan McIlrath. Pretty much understood that he would need a few years before he made it. McIlrath and Kreider were both players that were going to need more time to develop than a good many of the players drafted around them.

I don't really give a rat's ass about Tarasenko or Fowler. They play for other teams. Kreider took his time but finally he's fitting the team and looking like a stud--his highest potential upside--legit 1st line LW looks within his reach. McIlrath has been making progress as well. I don't worry about him too much--a guy that big and nasty who can skate is going to play. He won't be like Fowler but what the hell. It takes all kinds to make a good defense.

Anyway to Fowler and Clark figuring DZ was going to be the Rangers point man. DZ had a fairly spectacular rookie season. There was no reason at that point in time not to think he was for real--37 points as a 19 year old rookie d-man--easy to project he'd be in the 50's now. It didn't happen but it's hindsight to say the Rangers ****ed up not taking Fowler because DZ's game was going to plateau by the time he hit 22.

And he's still better than Fowler.

 

[darko]

listen and understand.

i made a decision on the pick immediately after we made it. bad pick.

what he becomes doesnt change my decision. irrelevant.

a bad pick is a bad pick. then and today.

there were better players available that made more sense for us and would have helped us sooner and fit our needs better. and i was right.

capice ?

So if McIlrath becomes a top pairing D-man or a meaner version of Beuk you'd still think it's a bad pick?

I reckon you are one of those people who'd love to see McI fail so that you can turn around and gloat at how right you were all this time.

 

[Matt4776]

Only 13 right wingers scored more goals than Callahan last season...... he is easily a second liner on a contender.

I don't think he is playing great this year, but when he is 100% he is without a doubt at least a second liner on a contender.... He had the same amount of points as Hossa who was the second line RW on the Stanley cup winning Blackhawks last season.

26 right wingers scored more ES goals than Callahan. When it comes to points, he's a lot lower than that.

Beyond points though, Callahan does not play well with skilled players. He just doesn't. Getting third line minutes+elite PP/PK time would be the best way to take advantage of his skill set and prolong his career.

 

[Thirty One]

26 right wingers scored more ES goals than Callahan.

30 teams, so that would make him a ____ line RW?

 

[Ail]

30 teams, so that would make him a ____ line RW?

Fourth!

 

[darko]

Fourth!

Spare forward.

 

[Thirty One]

Spare forward.

You forgot to say on a legitimate contender. If you add that at the end, you can make any baseless claims you want!

Example: Dan Girardi is a third pairing defenseman on a legitimate contender.

 

[Jim Ramsay]

26 right wingers scored more ES goals than Callahan. When it comes to points, he's a lot lower than that.

Beyond points though, Callahan does not play well with skilled players. He just doesn't. Getting third line minutes+elite PP/PK time would be the best way to take advantage of his skill set and prolong his career.

so if there are 30 teams, and he is 27th in even strength goals scored for a RW that would still make him at least a SECOND liner ... but it seems like there are a lot of people that feel he isn't a second liner, so I'll just 'agree to disagree' with people about this.

 

[offdacrossbar]

So if McIlrath becomes a top pairing D-man or a meaner version of Beuk you'd still think it's a bad pick?

I reckon you are one of those people who'd love to see McI fail so that you can turn around and gloat at how right you were all this time.

Nope. Can you read ?

I already spoke to that very thing. I want him to succeed. I'm a ny rangers fan since 1977. Enough with that.

If if if...... That's what you have. If. I'll give you an if.... I'm not even sure that Mac will play to the level that all of you expect from him. He's still a long ways away and not helping us today one iota. Thats the if I'm worried about.

I wanted us to draft players who I felt would help us. Quickly. Fowler has elite wheels. That's not debatable. He was able to step in and go and inspite of having to learn on the job, he's now a very accomplished nhl dman. Tarasenko stepped right in and was in the race for Calder until he was concussed. He's exactly what he was touted to be. A 21 yr old Russian bulldog who scores goals.

Years later we need exactly the kind of help a cam fowler or a vlad tarasenko could offer. Both purely offensive players. One a young sniper and the other a mobile, offensive damn and low and behold we need both right now. Today.

I would take either of them right now today over a mcilrath even if he was starting the next game for us.

 

[Ail]

You forgot to say on a legitimate contender. If you add that at the end, you can make any baseless claims you want!

Example: Dan Girardi is a third pairing defenseman on a legitimate contender.

Yeah well he is not even a bench warmer on an Olympic roster so he is basically waiver fodder. However in a trade he can easily land valuable assets.

 

[Bullseyes]

Only 13 right wingers scored more goals than Callahan last season...... he is easily a second liner on a contender.

I don't think he is playing great this year, but when he is 100% he is without a doubt at least a second liner on a contender.... He had the same amount of points as Hossa who was the second line RW on the Stanley cup winning Blackhawks last season.

Callahan played more games. Hossa is also a far superior defensive player than Callahan.

Callahan is an average 2nd liner. Definitely not a 3rd liner or 1st liner.

I find him overrated by Ranger fans. Good player, but he'll probably be overpaid on his contract and I hope it's not by the Rangers.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Nope. Can you read ?

I already spoke to that very thing. I want him to succeed. I'm a ny rangers fan since 1977. Enough with that.

If if if...... That's what you have. If. I'll give you an if.... I'm not even sure that Mac will play to the level that all of you expect from him. He's still a long ways away and not helping us today one iota. Thats the if I'm worried about.

I wanted us to draft players who I felt would help us. Quickly. Fowler has elite wheels. That's not debatable. He was able to step in and go and inspite of having to learn on the job, he's now a very accomplished nhl dman. Tarasenko stepped right in and was in the race for Calder until he was concussed. He's exactly what he was touted to be. A 21 yr old Russian bulldog who scores goals.

Years later we need exactly the kind of help a cam fowler or a vlad tarasenko could offer. Both purely offensive players. One a young sniper and the other a mobile, offensive damn and low and behold we need both right now. Today.

I would take either of them right now today over a mcilrath even if he was starting the next game for us.

But if Mac ends up playing up to that level, would you still say it was a bad pick?

Listen, I agree with you in that I would have preferred to pick Tarasenko, but what's done is done. I can only hope Mac develops in that player we all hope he can be.

 

[ecemleafs]

Only 13 right wingers scored more goals than Callahan last season...... he is easily a second liner on a contender.

I don't think he is playing great this year, but when he is 100% he is without a doubt at least a second liner on a contender.... He had the same amount of points as Hossa who was the second line RW on the Stanley cup winning Blackhawks last season.

Callahan was 28th in ES points among RW last season. He was 31st in 2011/2012. He was 38th in 2010/2011. This year hes got 4 ESP in 16 games. Its not like we have a lot of talent at LW and C to compensate for this lack of production.

 

[haveandare]

Nope. Can you read ?

I already spoke to that very thing. I want him to succeed. I'm a ny rangers fan since 1977. Enough with that.

If if if...... That's what you have. If. I'll give you an if.... I'm not even sure that Mac will play to the level that all of you expect from him. He's still a long ways away and not helping us today one iota. Thats the if I'm worried about.

I wanted us to draft players who I felt would help us. Quickly. Fowler has elite wheels. That's not debatable. He was able to step in and go and inspite of having to learn on the job, he's now a very accomplished nhl dman. Tarasenko stepped right in and was in the race for Calder until he was concussed. He's exactly what he was touted to be. A 21 yr old Russian bulldog who scores goals.

Years later we need exactly the kind of help a cam fowler or a vlad tarasenko could offer. Both purely offensive players. One a young sniper and the other a mobile, offensive damn and low and behold we need both right now. Today.

I would take either of them right now today over a mcilrath even if he was starting the next game for us.

You're saying your mind is made no matter what. How does that not come packaged with an assumption that he'll never be something really special? I'm not saying he will be, but I'm pointing out that you're talking "if" also - it's just a negative "if." Also, you keep describing his AHL play as "punching people," not playing stable first line minutes and giving those who watch the team the impression that he'll be in the NHL next year. If you minimize everything good he does, or just don't pay any attention to his game, any player can look mediocre.

Secondly, has it occurred to you that these players might play the way they do at least in part because of the teams that they're on? Like, maybe the Ducks give Fowler more room and more creative offensive players to be on the ice with and that's part of why he's had success with them? Maybe STL has offensive depth for days and that helps a rookie winger play his best? It seems to me that you're mentally cutting and pasting players from one team to another and assuming that they'd develop exactly the same in completely different circumstances.

 

[Jim Ramsay]

Callahan was 28th in ES points among RW last season. He was 31st in 2011/2012. He was 38th in 2010/2011. This year hes got 4 ESP in 16 games. Its not like we have a lot of talent at LW and C to compensate for this lack of production.

Yes...and these rankings of his would be terrible if I was saying that he was a First line RW, but I'm not, if you look at those rankings those are perfectly good for someone that is a SECOND line winger. I'll just move on from this....


and I already did acknowledge that he isn't playing great this year.

 

[SA16]

But if Mac ends up playing up to that level, would you still say it was a bad pick?

Listen, I agree with you in that I would have preferred to pick Tarasenko, but what's done is done. I can only hope Mac develops in that player we all hope he can be.

Meh I'd define good or bad pick more based on where you took the player vs. where he was expected to go at the time and not so much on whether or not it worked out. For example if Dallas took Jaime Benn in the first round, despite how well it's worked out, I would consider that a bad pick since clearly nobody else considered him worthy of that spot and they could have taken someone else and got him later. If (extreme example), say, the Penguins took Kopitar with the first pick over Crosby I would consider that a bad pick even though Kopitar worked out great because if that is the guy they wanted they could have traded down, picked up more assets, and got him

 

[eco's bones]

How you define a player is by his career. The Rangers drafted Mcilrath with Beukeboom at least somewhat in mind. Beukeboom was not a star but he was good enough to allow his main defense partner to accentuate on his talent. There is value in that. Beukeboom was a very effective player for many years--most of which were played with the Rangers. If McIlrath can make his own mark as a Ranger as positively as Beukeboom did he will be a good pick.

How it should be decided who was better--Fowler, Tarasenko or McIlrath--will be what they accomplish or don't over the course of their careers. The players they play with--the teams they play on will add to or subtract from what they accomplish. It will not hurt Tarasenko for instance if he becomes a key player on a championship Blues team--a team which is very very good right now. He is in a really good situation. If for some reason Tarasenko does not live up to his potential or he has a career ending injury or one day decides he'd rather play in the KHL that's going to play a part in how people look at him.

Personally I don't think any of McIlrath, Fowler or Tarasenko are going to be inducted in the HOF one day--just my opinion.

 

[Matt4776]

30 teams, so that would make him a ____ line RW?

Way to completely ignore the second part of my post.

 

[Barnaby]

Meh I'd define good or bad pick more based on where you took the player vs. where he was expected to go at the time and not so much on whether or not it worked out. For example if Dallas took Jaime Benn in the first round, despite how well it's worked out, I would consider that a bad pick since clearly nobody else considered him worthy of that spot and they could have taken someone else and got him later. If (extreme example), say, the Penguins took Kopitar with the first pick over Crosby I would consider that a bad pick even though Kopitar worked out great because if that is the guy they wanted they could have traded down, picked up more assets, and got him

That's idiotic. If you realize how good that Benn would be, then you grab him in the 1st or 2nd because you want that player and you don't want to risk losing him. Perhaps 1 of the 29 other teams realized how good he was. You don't say "Let's take a lesser player, because he should be there later."

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick. If the Patriots realized how good that he would be, then they'd have been fools not to take him in the 1st round. Would that have been a bad pick, because maybe you'd have gotten him later? That's a ridiculous concept.

 

[Barnaby]

FYI - I was dying to get Tarasenko. I knew he was going to be a STUD.

I was also pining for Pouliot and Olesz who were both going to be franchise players ;-)

We will all be right, and we will all be wrong. Ultimately, I trust Clark, and Gorton. 15 years ago you'd have been just as well off throwing darts at a board, then listening to the teams scouts.

 

[Barnaby]

Just to throw it out there... but can you blame the Rangers for leaning against Russians?

Obviously the rest of the league did when Cherepanov slid so far...

After that debacle in the Russian league with Cherepanov's situation (RIP)- wouldn't you be more comfortable taking a good old USA or Canadian kid in a professional environment? It's not on the kid or the people of that country, but picking that high - you NEED to gain an asset. It's risk vs reward. Apparently the Rangers felt the risk.. Of all teams at that point... the Rangers make the most sense to pass...

 

[3rdlineglory]

Just to throw it out there... but can you blame the Rangers for leaning against Russians?

Obviously the rest of the league did when Cherepanov slid so far...

After that debacle in the Russian league with Cherepanov's situation (RIP)- wouldn't you be more comfortable taking a good old USA or Canadian kid in a professional environment? It's not on the kid or the people of that country, but picking that high - you NEED to gain an asset. It's risk vs reward. Apparently the Rangers felt the risk.. Of all teams at that point... the Rangers make the most sense to pass...

A fan may go about that line of thinking, but management wouldn't. Unless they want to get canned.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

Obviously, with the information we have today, we would all take Fowler and Tarasenko over McIlrath RIGHT NOW. That doesn't mean that they will end up being the better players.

Jacob Josefson was taken after Kreider. 2010-2011, he was already in the NHL while Kreider was having a good but not great year at BC. I think it's safe to assume that a lot of people would have traded Kreider for Josefson at that time. Now? Not so much. Same goes for Jordan Caron, Kyle Palmeiri, and Kyle Clifford. All of those players were taken after Kreider but reached the NHL first. It doesn't look like any of them will have better NHL careers. Still, if you go back to 2011, I'm sure plenty of posters would have called Kreider a poor pick because those guys were already in the NHL ahead of Kreider.

You can make a judgment about players 3 years after their draft year but player development isn't a static thing. Some players are ready for the NHL early but have lower peaks. Some guys take a while to blossom but end up being elite talents. I don't know what we're going to get out of McIlrath. But I want to see what he offers at the NHL level before I label him a bust. Fact of the matter is that no player from that draft is a bust yet (unless they're out of hockey already).

 

[darko]

But if Mac ends up playing up to that level, would you still say it was a bad pick?
.

Yes he would. Read the highlighted part of the post he made couple pages ago.

listen and understand.

i made a decision on the pick immediately after we made it. bad pick.

what he becomes doesnt change my decision. irrelevant.

a bad pick is a bad pick. then and today.

there were better players available that made more sense for us and would have helped us sooner and fit our needs better. and i was right.

capice ?

 

[darko]

Has Fowler really been that good this year? I've only watched him couple times. I know he was terrible last season.