Eller's Arbitration

[Winter Eclipse]

There is a big difference between failing to negotiate and failing to reach an agreement in a certain time frame. There are many little things in each file that would cause it.

For sure. But to be fair, if you enter a negotiation with a time limit already established, then not reaching an agreement within that span is till a failure; the time limit is part of the initial conditions.

In this case for Eller, I would guess (as there was no rumours or leaks out there) that MB valued Eller as a 3rd C, and Eller wanted to reach the higher end of the pay scale of that position with an added little plus for some top 6 potential. He likely offered him Sutter type money (2-2.5M).

Well like you said, this is a complete guess. It's entirely possible that MB actually values Eller at 1.6 and made him a "take it or leave it" offer at that number.

But more to the point, my contention is with the idea that the 1.65 number, and going to arbitration in general, is some negotiation tactic on the part of Bergevin, leaving aside the fact that he's not even the one who elected to go to arbitration.

Third-party arbitration is, in general, a form of conflict resolution; it's effectively saying "we can't reach an agreement on our own, so a neutral party needs to do it for us".

I mean, the CBA itself uses the word "dispute" when referring to Salary Arbitration [p.59 - Section 12.5 Procedural Issues - Part (a) and Part (b)]

Part (a)
An election by a Player or a Club of salary arbitration made in accordance with
the provisions herein, shall give to the Salary Arbitrator jurisdiction in the dispute with respect to the other party also.

Part (b)
Only the dispute with respect to the terms of one (1) SPC shall be considered in any one hearing

The only time it uses the word "negotiation" is under Inadmissible Evidence.

So no, I don't consider going to arbitration to be the continuation of negotiations by other means (to paraphrase) as much as I consider it a contractual dispute arising from failed negotiations, and it would seem the CBA supports that view.

And finally, I find the whole obsession with not only defending, but lauding everything MB does to be bizarre. It's reached the point where fans are actually calling what I thought was a fan favorite player a selfish, overhyped jerk who still has a lot to prove, and then congratulate themselves for doing so with a ridiculous "team over player" mantra, as if the team is some monolithic entity that can exist in the absence of, you know, actual players. Oh, and if you don't agree with that philosophy, you can GTFO cause you're not a real fan as per a handful of Robert Billings' on the Habs board.

The arbitration numbers point there as it's normal for the player/management to high/low ball and arbtration number in hopes that the arbitrator gets to their number.

Sure, I'm just saying it's not part of normal negotiations to go to arbitration in the first place.

Yup, when it come to hiring multi millionnaires employees, we know who to get advice from now

I dunno, I actually couldn't follow some of the more technical negotiation techniques he outlined

 

[RC51]

Eller is now 25, he still puts up minor numbers. 3rd line center.
can be replaced by dozens of other players in the NHL. What he has failed to do so far is show he can UP his game to near 2nd line center quality. He is a big, good speed, good shot, but he is not a tough guy at all, he players much smaller then his size, does NOt win 1/1 battles.
Habs clearly want to give his a bit more room to finally up his game, but not a long term and NOT 3 mill per. I would sign him at 2mil MAX for two years with NO NO Movement clause. I would look him over until the next trade deadline and if he is STILL NOT better then trade him.

 

[Fozz]

Eller is now 25, he still puts up minor numbers. 3rd line center.
can be replaced by dozens of other players in the NHL. What he has failed to do so far is show he can UP his game to near 2nd line center quality. He is a big, good speed, good shot, but he is not a tough guy at all, he players much smaller then his size, does NOt win 1/1 battles.
Habs clearly want to give his a bit more room to finally up his game, but not a long term and NOT 3 mill per. I would sign him at 2mil MAX for two years with NO NO Movement clause. I would look him over until the next trade deadline and if he is STILL NOT better then trade him.

I value Eller more than you do, albeit only slightly, because of what he's been able to show when he's had good stretches. The problem with him is consistency. Being very good 20% of the time doesn't make you very good, as some people here seem to think.

As for the way his contract is being handled. I couldn't care less. Even if his feelings are hurt in the process, it shouldn't matter at all. Chances are that it would serve as motivation for him to get better.

 

[Price is Wright]

Being very good 20% of the time doesn't make you very good, as some people here seem to think.

Are we talking about Lars Eller or Benoit Pouliot?

 

[Milhouse40]

I value Eller more than you do, albeit only slightly, because of what he's been able to show when he's had good stretches. The problem with him is consistency. Being very good 20% of the time doesn't make you very good, as some people here seem to think.

As for the way his contract is being handled. I couldn't care less. Even if his feelings are hurt in the process, it shouldn't matter at all. Chances are that it would serve as motivation for him to get better.

The consistency of Eller....
For the duration of Eller's Last contract (2 years including playoff), this is the 5on5 production of our 3 centers:

Desharnais : 0.43pts/game (64pts in 149 games)
Eller : 0.41pts/game (57pts in 141 games)
Plekanec : 0.38pts/game (56pts in 150 games)

Is Eller inconsistent? Yes mayby, but not anymore than Desharnais or Plekanec.
Of course, the others look more consistent because of the amount of Powerplay they get.

DD: +/- 420 minutes of PP = 25 points (about 1 point every 17 minutes)
Plek: +/- 328 minutes of PP= 30 points (about 1 point every 12 minutes)
Eller: +/- 126 minutes of PP = 8 points (about 1 point every 16 minutes)

In the last 2 seasons, all others centers were inconsistent....or they would've put up way better numbers than Eller.

 

[Habaneros]

good playoff numbers...big raise...

 

[InTheWrist]

How much will it cost to replace a player of Eller's attributes? Frankly, more than he'asking.

Either Bergevin offer Eller 13M over a 4 year contract or 2.5M on a 1 year deal and get it sorted.

I believe most teams in the league,with the exception 4 or 5 teams ( a question of no need rather than worth) will gladly have Eller on their payroll at 3.1M hit.

 

[Fozz]

The consistency of Eller....
For the duration of Eller's Last contract (2 years including playoff), this is the 5on5 production of our 3 centers:

Desharnais : 0.43pts/game (64pts in 149 games)
Eller : 0.41pts/game (57pts in 141 games)
Plekanec : 0.38pts/game (56pts in 150 games)

Is Eller inconsistent? Yes mayby, but not anymore than Desharnais or Plekanec.
Of course, the others look more consistent because of the amount of Powerplay they get.

DD: +/- 420 minutes of PP = 25 points (about 1 point every 17 minutes)
Plek: +/- 328 minutes of PP= 30 points (about 1 point every 12 minutes)
Eller: +/- 126 minutes of PP = 8 points (about 1 point every 16 minutes)

In the last 2 seasons, all others centers were inconsistent....or they would've put up way better numbers than Eller.

Are those stats suppose to change my mind about Eller being inconsistent? Because they don't.

 

[Price is Wright]

Are those stats suppose to change my mind about Eller being inconsistent? Because they don't.

Everyone agreed he was inconsistent. Then the playoffs happened and suddenly those ideas are supposed to be forgotten. And here's some stats that say nothing about his shift to shift on ice play that we all saw all season long.

 

[417]

Like Briere, Desharnais, Emelin, Or Bourques contracts are any good? Bergevin signed 3 of them by the way.

Eller is worth more than 2.6m, it's not Monopoly money to suggest so.

Brière's contract was for 2 years...hardly an albatross incapable of being moved. (See trade for Parenteau)

Desharnais' contract...3.5M for a player capable of putting up 60pts, sure i'm not the biggest fan of the guy and he's not popular on this board, but find me better value around the NHL. I'm sure you can, but that list won't be very long.

Emelin's contract...well let's see, seemed kind of risky for a player coming off major knee surgery and who hadn't really proven anything. We'll be better placed to judge that deal based on his performance this year. It generally takes a full year to recover from that type of injury.

Bourque's contract...the Flames gave him that contract, not the Habs. And he was acquired by Pierre Gauthier. This has nothing to do with Bergevin

 

[Price is Wright]

Emelin was excellent in the post-season. If we get that Emelin this season, we're a happy team.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Emelin was excellent in the post-season. If we get that Emelin this season, we're a happy team.

I imagine the same would be said of Eller...

 

[Andy]

Desharnais' contract...3.5M for a player capable of putting up 60pts, sure i'm not the biggest fan of the guy and he's not popular on this board, but find me better value around the NHL. I'm sure you can, but that list won't be very long.

The complaint about DD's contract isn't the value per points, but the fact that he didn't deserve it when he signed, which is something players like Eller and Subban seem to need to do to get paid by MB.

DD was having a bad season in 2012-2013, hadn't proved anything as an nhler yet considering he had only played one full nhl season at that point and BAM, he gets 3.5x 4...just after MB said that Subban still had a lot to prove before he could commit to him.

MB has been inconsistent on his contracts. He willing to gamble on DD and Emelin, two players who hadn't proven squat when they signed their deals, but wasn't willing to gamble on Subban and now Eller? It's just weird the way he chooses to nickle and dime certain players because they haven't proven much, but then throw generous contracts to other players who hadn't proven much when they signed their deals.

MB justifies Subban's bridge by saying that there are no exceptions, everyone needs to prove their worth, but then makes exceptions on certain players he likes more. MB is inconsistent when it comes to contract negotiations.

Whitesnake had an excellent post about this in the Subban thread.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

For sure. But to be fair, if you enter a negotiation with a time limit already established, then not reaching an agreement within that span is till a failure; the time limit is part of the initial conditions.

Absolutely agree, it's a failure to get a negotiated settlement in place. It's just your last comment of "he apparently failed to negotiate" made it seem like he didn't even bother to pick up a phone.

Well like you said, this is a complete guess. It's entirely possible that MB actually values Eller at 1.6 and made him a "take it or leave it" offer at that number.

But more to the point, my contention is with the idea that the 1.65 number, and going to arbitration in general, is some negotiation tactic on the part of Bergevin, leaving aside the fact that he's not even the one who elected to go to arbitration.

Third-party arbitration is, in general, a form of conflict resolution; it's effectively saying "we can't reach an agreement on our own, so a neutral party needs to do it for us".

I mean, the CBA itself uses the word "dispute" when referring to Salary Arbitration [p.59 - Section 12.5 Procedural Issues - Part (a) and Part (b)]

Part (a)
An election by a Player or a Club of salary arbitration made in accordance with
the provisions herein, shall give to the Salary Arbitrator jurisdiction in the dispute with respect to the other party also.

Part (b)
Only the dispute with respect to the terms of one (1) SPC shall be considered in any one hearing

The only time it uses the word "negotiation" is under Inadmissible Evidence.

So no, I don't consider going to arbitration to be the continuation of negotiations by other means (to paraphrase) as much as I consider it a contractual dispute arising from failed negotiations, and it would seem the CBA supports that view.

I think we're gettting lost in the weeds a little bit here. This whole thing looks like each side trying to get more to their liking. So, going into this hearing (and there is still time to get a deal, O'Reilly made on literally as they were walking into his) there is still time to get a negotiated settlement.

Both sides will come in high/low "er" than what they actually want, hoping the arbitrator comes in closer to their comfort zone. I am sure numbers in between were tossed around by both sides.

It's really not as confrontational as it used to be. And again, I agree it's a failure for both sides. As I am sure both would much rather a negotiated settlement.

And finally, I find the whole obsession with not only defending, but lauding everything MB does to be bizarre. It's reached the point where fans are actually calling what I thought was a fan favorite player a selfish, overhyped jerk who still has a lot to prove, and then congratulate themselves for doing so with a ridiculous "team over player" mantra, as if the team is some monolithic entity that can exist in the absence of, you know, actual players. Oh, and if you don't agree with that philosophy, you can GTFO cause you're not a real fan as per a handful of Robert Billings' on the Habs board.

I believe you are confusing me feeling like I have an understanding of some background to MB's decision process with defending his actions. I can see why he does things, I can understand where he is coming from. I do feel that he has done some good (excellent in trades overall, ability to recognize mistakes and rectify them), some bad (Briere, Murray, Bouillion). Just as I can see why players, in this case Eller, would want what he wants, and chooses to do what he does. I don't view either side as being some cartoonishly heinous human being. They are likely both trying to get the most out of a situation, which is a normal uisiness practice And pro hockey is a buisness....except to us fans.


And I know you're going on a little tangent here with Subban. But I'll indulge.

At the end of the day, we are all guessing at the behind the scenes stuff. No one knows what is going on, or the why's.

If MB is outed as being some hard case that insults, demeans, lowballs and downright belittles players. I'll light a torch myself to help run him out of town.

But until that time, I prescribe to the notion that a GM will have a difficult time keeping or finding a new job by doing that, so even if it simply to protect his employment despite him being some kind of monstrously unethical human being, I'd believe self preservation would kick in and that would be enough to pull them back from the brink.


I'll try to stay close to the middle ground of looking at why either side would do what they do or want what they want.

Also, I'll do what you are doing, simply hope for the best outcome for my team.

 

[417]

The complaint about DD's contract isn't the value per points, but the fact that he didn't deserve it when he signed, which is something players like Eller and Subban seem to need to do to get paid by MB.

DD was having a bad season in 2012-2013, hadn't proved anything as an nhler yet considering he had only played one full nhl season at that point and BAM, he gets 3.5x 4...just after MB said that Subban still had a lot to prove before he could commit to him.

MB has been inconsistent on his contracts. He willing to gamble on DD and Emelin, two players who hadn't proven squat when they signed their deals, but wasn't willing to gamble on Subban and now Eller? It's just weird the way he chooses to nickle and dime certain players because they haven't proven much, but then throw generous contracts to other players who hadn't proven much when they signed their deals.

MB justifies Subban's bridge by saying that there are no exceptions, everyone needs to prove their worth, but then makes exceptions on certain players he likes more. MB is inconsistent when it comes to contract negotiations.

Whitesnake had an excellent post about this in the Subban thread.

Agreed on Desharnais and how he 'earned' that contract...wasn't a fan of that contract then, and i'm still not. Not because it's too much (although its definitely too long), but because of how it was handed out.

I think they probably overestimated a player who had overachieved everywhere up to that point. Certainly not one of Bergevin's best moments. But he's allowed to make mistakes, this one isn't a death blow.

Also, I completely disagree that he wasn't willing to gamble on Subban...that's EXACTLY what he did.

As for Eller...did I miss something? I mean, look up my post history, you'll see that i'm a big Eller fan. But the guy has a career high in points of 28, what's he done so far for him to get a significant raise at this point??? As far as i'm concerned, he's still got a lot to prove.

 

[missthenet]

Eller is now 25, he still puts up minor numbers. 3rd line center.
can be replaced by dozens of other players in the NHL. What he has failed to do so far is show he can UP his game to near 2nd line center quality. He is a big, good speed, good shot, but he is not a tough guy at all, he players much smaller then his size, does NOt win 1/1 battles.
Habs clearly want to give his a bit more room to finally up his game, but not a long term and NOT 3 mill per. I would sign him at 2mil MAX for two years with NO NO Movement clause. I would look him over until the next trade deadline and if he is STILL NOT better then trade him.

Eller does not get any opportunities with Therrien. He lead us in p loints as a forward in the last playoffs without powerplay time, The habs have screwed up more young guys than I can even count because they think they can make a guy be something he is not. Sure they have some success with the occasional guy but there are lots of names that could of had a better opportunity. I say give him as much power play time as DD with the same wingers and see who puts up more points. If DD is worth 3.5 million dollars as a one domensional player surely Eller deserves more that 1.65 million a year. He kills penalties, plays second and third line minutes, can skate, wins pick battles. He deserves more of an opportunity. I guarantee that if they end up losing or trading him he will fluorish under a more unbiased coach.

 

[Price is Wright]

I imagine the same would be said of Eller...

Absolutely.

Nobody is arguing that they think Eller is going to be inconsistent this season or that Eller sucks or that Eller is a flash in the pan. Everyone wants to see the 2012-2013 regular season/2013-2014 post-season Eller next year. But we have to see it before we're paying him $3M+ per season.

 

[Andy]

Agreed on Desharnais and how he 'earned' that contract...wasn't a fan of that contract then, and i'm still not. Not because it's too much (although its definitely too long), but because of how it was handed out.

I think they probably overestimated a player who had overachieved everywhere up to that point. Certainly not one of Bergevin's best moments. But he's allowed to make mistakes, this one isn't a death blow.

Also, I completely disagree that he wasn't willing to gamble on Subban...that's EXACTLY what he did.

As for Eller...did I miss something? I mean, look up my post history, you'll see that i'm a big Eller fan. But the guy has a career high in points of 28, what's he done so far for him to get a significant raise at this point??? As far as i'm concerned, he's still got a lot to prove.

I don't think Subban's low ball was a gamble at all. Subban was going to get paid bridge deal or not. 5x5 would have been the best deal for Subban, he was actually worth that value at the time and now the team would have him playing at a Norris level at a great contract. They would benefit from three years of savings. All the team did was ensure that Subban gets paid the big bucks earlier in his career now while potentially alienating a player. The team missed an opportunity to take advantage on savings.

Giving Eller a mid-term deal at 3.1 would be a gamble for MB. There is potential for the deal to fail if Eller plays like he did mid-last season, but if the Canadiens get playoff Eller on a consistent basis, 3.1 might look like excellent value.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

Agreed on Desharnais and how he 'earned' that contract...wasn't a fan of that contract then, and i'm still not. Not because it's too much (although its definitely too long), but because of how it was handed out.

I think they probably overestimated a player who had overachieved everywhere up to that point. Certainly not one of Bergevin's best moments. But he's allowed to make mistakes, this one isn't a death blow.

Also, I completely disagree that he wasn't willing to gamble on Subban...that's EXACTLY what he did.

As for Eller...did I miss something? I mean, look up my post history, you'll see that i'm a big Eller fan. But the guy has a career high in points of 28, what's he done so far for him to get a significant raise at this point??? As far as i'm concerned, he's still got a lot to prove.

Not a fan of the contract either. I think the who dynamic duo crap with Pacioretty is what got him that deal. Don't get me wrong getting two guys who together put up about 100-120 points per year for the cost of one Kessel is great and all. But.....meh.

I do wonder if he got this because ownership wanted that "gars de chez nous" check in the box too.

I see this as a minor issue in the grand scheme, as luckily, with a rising cap, and a couple of ok production seasons, we could trade him to a team desperate for a 2nd line C (looking at you Edmonton).


As for the difference in treatment. Well. I mentioned the language and hometown thing.


I am still not sold on management's reluctance to deal with Eller just yet, same as I am unwilling to push him under the bus for not signing.

 

[JoelWarlord]

It's unfortunate for Eller, he's the classic better than he looks on paper type of player. His possession numbers are good, he plays pretty tough minutes and does a good job at it. He hasn't got the PP time or the linemates, so unfortunately his counting stats aren't that great. The issue for him is that arbitration is mostly about numbers. Normally a numbers argument would be very strong for a guy like Eller (his underlying metrics show he's much better than his point total and "3rd line" status would suggest), but the only numbers admissible in arbitration are the standard stats released by the NHL and he's never broken 30 points.

It's just business. I'm sure team and player both know he's better than his points and lineup position would suggest but controlling cost like this is how we have the cap space to make trades like the one for Vanek that nobody else could afford.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

It's unfortunate for Eller, he's the classic better than he looks on paper type of player. His possession numbers are good, he plays pretty tough minutes and does a good job at it. He hasn't got the PP time or the linemates, so unfortunately his counting stats aren't that great. The issue for him is that arbitration is mostly about numbers. Normally a numbers argument would be very strong for a guy like Eller (his underlying metrics show he's much better than his point total and "3rd line" status would suggest), but the only numbers admissible in arbitration are the standard stats released by the NHL and he's never broken 30 points.

It's just business. I'm sure team and player both know he's better than his points and lineup position would suggest but controlling cost like this is how we have the cap space to make trades like the one for Vanek that nobody else could afford.

WTH are you doing?!?!?! Around these parts we MUST lose our minds and take wildly one sided views on everything. Didn't you get the PM when you joined?



Seriously, good post.

 

[JLP]

Still hoping for an 11th hour deal and an all-smiles joint presser

 

[Agnostic]

Almost none of these arbitration filings get to an arbitration ruling. The process is not Final Offer Arbitration like in MLB, so the numbers submitted don't need to be realisitic. I doubt MB expects to sign Eller for $1.6M , these public numbers are practically meaningless.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

Still hoping for an 11th hour deal and an all-smiles joint presser

joint presser at 4:20?

 

[BLONG7]

The consistency of Eller....
For the duration of Eller's Last contract (2 years including playoff), this is the 5on5 production of our 3 centers:

Desharnais : 0.43pts/game (64pts in 149 games)
Eller : 0.41pts/game (57pts in 141 games)
Plekanec : 0.38pts/game (56pts in 150 games)

Is Eller inconsistent? Yes mayby, but not anymore than Desharnais or Plekanec.
Of course, the others look more consistent because of the amount of Powerplay they get.

DD: +/- 420 minutes of PP = 25 points (about 1 point every 17 minutes)
Plek: +/- 328 minutes of PP= 30 points (about 1 point every 12 minutes)
Eller: +/- 126 minutes of PP = 8 points (about 1 point every 16 minutes)

In the last 2 seasons, all others centers were inconsistent....or they would've put up way better numbers than Eller.

Great work, this tells me that all 3 are consistant, but those are not great numbers at all, from all 3 not just Eller...
We haven't had a good centre since Koivu...we haven't had a good centre with size since Bobby Smith...