Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[mriswith]

Not understanding math would mean that I had actually seen the average velocity numbers. Where are you getting those? They aren't on the official NHL Edge stats webpage that I use.

Yes they are. Scroll down.

He's basically stopped doing PP one-time slappers which he used to fire high/wide constantly, to everyone's frustration. We know the team is trying for high-percentage shots and whether that change is coach or player-enforced I have no idea but it would definitely skew the numbers.

This is a super weak response and I am left seriously wondering if you've even been watching the games this season. It's been nothing but muffins this season and the one time he took a vintage wrist shot, he was out several games for injury literally minutes later.

 

[MS]

Yes they are. Scroll down.


This is a super weak response and I am left seriously wondering if you've even been watching the games this season. It's been nothing but muffins this season and the one time he took a vintage wrist shot, he was out several games for injury literally minutes later.

So they are. Useful.

I've watched 40/42 games, for the record.

What even is your narrative here? His poor play/poor shots are supposedly due to his knee tendonitis, but shooting a puck ... caused him an upper body injury? And that's somehow connected?

What I see from Pettersson re: shooting is that he's using his slapshot way less. I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's that he's hurt, or that the coaches have said not to and to focus on higher-percentage shots (we do see him ridiculous over-passing to set up 'perfect' plays when he does get in good situations), or that he's lost confidence in his slapshot, that he isn't getting into positions to use it, or if the PP just isn't designed the same way for it to be used as a weapon. Or some combination. Using your slapshot less will cause your average velocity to drop. When he's used his slapshot, it looks pretty normal to me. Velocity is normal.

And again, the notion that knee tendonitis would ruin his shot velocity when the wrist injury blamed for his 21-22 struggles had zero effect doesn't really line up or make sense.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

What I find strange is that Petterson actually went to management and said he wanted to stay, after all that happened.

This is the same guy that for years want the team to prove to him they are worthy of him, that even during the out of the blue division winning season has to be "threatened" with a trade to extend (all the while looking like he was miserable because somebody forced nearly $100m onto him).
It makes no sense to me, now that he has a "get out of jail free" card, he refuse to play it? Like sure he might get traded to Buffalo, but at least he won't get bullied there and, at least for this season, it's not like he is leaving a winning team anyways.

He had always made "playing for a winning team" such a key issue, yet now he has a chance to goto a better team potentially (that handshake deal with the team surely will give him some say), and he has already secured his bag, suddenly playing for a winner isn't so important anymore? I don't get this guy.

I really hope that Reddit guy is right and tendinitis takes a year to heal, because we are like right at the 1 year anniversary and we desperately need him to play at least like a $8m player, even if he can't get to the $11.6m level. I hate seeing these 2 (Petey and Miller) wasting a Hart worthy season from Hughes because they don't like each other.

 

[mriswith]

So they are. Useful.

I've watched 40/42 games, for the record.

What even is your narrative here? His poor play/poor shots are supposedly due to his knee tendonitis, but shooting a puck ... caused him an upper body injury? And that's somehow connected?

What I see from Pettersson re: shooting is that he's using his slapshot way less. I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's that he's hurt, or that the coaches have said not to and to focus on higher-percentage shots (we do see him ridiculous over-passing to set up 'perfect' plays when he does get in good situations), or that he's lost confidence in his slapshot, that he isn't getting into positions to use it, or if the PP just isn't designed the same way for it to be used as a weapon. Or some combination. Using your slapshot less will cause your average velocity to drop. When he's used his slapshot, it looks pretty normal to me. Velocity is normal.

And again, the notion that knee tendonitis would ruin his shot velocity when the wrist injury blamed for his 21-22 struggles had zero effect doesn't really line up or make sense.

What is my narrative? As I've told you many times now, unlike you I do not have a dogmatic opinion on the exact cause of his ongoing issues and I'm not trying to build a narrative,

Building a narrative is how you watch a player drop from the 91st percentile to the 50th percentile in shot velocity and end up posting "Absolute drivel!!! Zero sense!! His shot is just fine!!!" And believe the player shooting constant muffins was really in the 94th percentile for velocity of NHL'ers this year.

In fact this entire EP argument going back a year now started with you convincing everyone it was 100% in his head and me absolutely convinced that there's no way that's all there was to it and I find it amazing that a year later we got a public statement from the player confirming injury to the point of still screwing with his offseason, we have edge data showing that the top end of his skating and shooting is gone and apparently you're still totally convinced in the same opinion you had a year ago before all the new info came out.

I don't know why it's happening. I've never said it's okay either, he needs to figure it out. I just don't believe a player can completely lose the top end of two previously dominant physical attributes purely because of a lack of effort/compete while that player is defensively engaged, blocking shots and diving to break up plays. Even the stretches this year where people think he "turned it on" his physical attributes still looked the same, which is precisely why I posted in the middle of his heater with Miller out that I didn't expect it to last, and that has turned out to be backed up by the edge data.

 

[Icebreakers]

What I find strange is that Petterson actually went to management and said he wanted to stay, after all that happened.

This is the same guy that for years want the team to prove to him they are worthy of him, that even during the out of the blue division winning season has to be "threatened" with a trade to extend (all the while looking like he was miserable because somebody forced nearly $100m onto him).
It makes no sense to me, now that he has a "get out of jail free" card, he refuse to play it? Like sure he might get traded to Buffalo, but at least he won't get bullied there and, at least for this season, it's not like he is leaving a winning team anyways.

He had always made "playing for a winning team" such a key issue, yet now he has a chance to goto a better team potentially (that handshake deal with the team surely will give him some say), and he has already secured his bag, suddenly playing for a winner isn't so important anymore? I don't get this guy.

I really hope that Reddit guy is right and tendinitis takes a year to heal, because we are like right at the 1 year anniversary and we desperately need him to play at least like a $8m player, even if he can't get to the $11.6m level. I hate seeing these 2 (Petey and Miller) wasting a Hart worthy season from Hughes because they don't like each other.

Cause he knows hes not good anymore. If he goes to a "good" team hes gonna screw their chances up with his contract lol which will bring more negativity and pressure from the media.

 

[SoupNazi]

BE CIVIL!

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Pettersson spent two years basically telegraphing a Dubois/Tkachuk exit because he thought the team wasn't good enough for him and then even when we were suddenly 1st in the league only signed when they basically had to blackmail him with a trade threat. Calling him loyal is ... certainly something.

I like Miller but I certainly wouldn't ever pretend that he doesn't have major flaws or periods of poor play that are his own doing as a result of those flaws. But the pom-pom waiving some of you guys do for Pettersson is f***ing unbelievable. You guys are just inventing the reality that you want to exist with this player and are completely unable to accept that there might be significant flaws there no matter how many times he gets called out for them by the GM and coach.

You've basically created the divide on here with your constant Pettersson injury conspiracy theory campaigning.

Blaming other people of "inventing the reality they want to live in" when they refuse to live in the reality you've invented is really something else.

 

[pitseleh]

The PP has to run through Pettersson. I know Miller is dynamite at it, but Pettersson never really developed this side of his game due to being an elite shooter. They let someone else make the plays. (He also delays too much)

The Kuzmenko revelation is interesting. I've long suspected that Pettersson is used to going east-west with his playmaking. The north-south emphasis this system has is a detriment to that ability. Then again, if they're able to get a 'skill' player that can play in this structure, I think that would greatly benefit Pettersson.

- The Hughes deployment
- PP runs through him on the half wall
- A skilled winger to make short passes with.

That's the recipe to get him back, beyond what else ails him.

A bit more: Pettersson is at 2.4 P/60 in his career at ES when not playing with Kuzmenko. 3.7 with (screwed up the rounding before).

If Pettersson had two more even strength points this year he’d be at his career average production without Kuzmenko.

Even in 22/23 and 23/24, when not playing with either Hughes or Kuzmenko, Petterson only ran a 43% CF%, comparable to his numbers away from Hughes this year.

Pettersson ran a 51% CF% with Kuzmenko but without Hughes, so he was better in that way. But a lot of his production during that period was SH% driven - Pettersson’s career on ice SH % is 10.9%, but that breaks down to 10.2% without Kuzmenko, 14.1% with. At 10.2% instead of 14.1% on ice SH%, his P/60 with Kuzmenko would have dropped to 2.7, much closer to his career norms.

Pettersson has ultimately never generated a ton of offensive volume at ES. Would require some pretty big changes in results to improve there. The question has to be whether his run with Kuzmenko was just lightning in a bottle or if there is some way to get him back to converting at a higher rate.

The PP of course is a different story.

 

[theguardianII]

A bit more: Pettersson is at 2.4 P/60 in his career at ES when not playing with Kuzmenko. 3.7 with (screwed up the rounding before).

If Pettersson had two more even strength points this year he’d be at his career average production without Kuzmenko.

Even in 22/23 and 23/24, when not playing with either Hughes or Kuzmenko, Petterson only ran a 43% CF%, comparable to his numbers away from Hughes this year.

Pettersson ran a 51% CF% with Kuzmenko but without Hughes, so he was better in that way. But a lot of his production during that period was SH% driven - Pettersson’s career on ice SH % is 10.9%, but that breaks down to 10.2% without Kuzmenko, 14.1% with. At 10.2% instead of 14.1% on ice SH%, his P/60 with Kuzmenko would have dropped to 2.7, much closer to his career norms.

Pettersson has ultimately never generated a ton of offensive volume at ES. Would require some pretty big changes in results to improve there. The question has to be whether his run with Kuzmenko was just lightning in a bottle or if there is some way to get him back to converting at a higher rate.

The PP of course is a different story.

Sometimes a pair click, something Tocchet said he wanted, but not Kuzmenko.

Allvin says Pettersson will learn to play the right way? The right way or Tocchet's way?

In the league since 2018 almost 7 years ago, not a rookie, 446 NHL games 441 points and Allvin doesn't think Petey knows how to play.

Allvin talks about EP taking the next step, well under Tocchet that next step was backwards, a step back.

Allvin says they are committed, does that mean confined, contracted or resolved?

With JTM a time out to reset, but EP and now all the players have to step it up, they HAVE to, they are not allowed to be like Miller and need a reset. Must perform at 110%.

Lately EP is getting kudos for blocking shots, playing defence but not for what he was good at and he is getting 11.6 million to be a defensive player. Doesn't the team have like 7 of those already?

Tocchet took a 100 pt player and made him into a 65 pt player. Well you know Petey is trying to play as the coach wants even if he can't, he still tries.

AND the latest hot news spread via heresay, Someone in the front office supposedly heard that EP said he didn't want to be traded or he wanted to stay. Third hand without context or confirmation that EP even said that. Once out in the media they just source each other without ever quoting the players. And at that what would the player say after signing a huge contract?

 

[VancouverJagger]

I think the majority of the problem clearly is in between PEttersson's ears.........negativity and constant berating has the exact opposite effect of inspiring him.......right or wrong he shrivels up when faced with this sort of treatment. Look at whom he was most productive with - Boudreau......who showered him with praise.

Seems like he needs that encouragement to play better............doesn't appear like that is gonna happen with JTM here. Makes you wonder if Tocchet is the right coach for him as well.

 

[andora]

Yes, ignore every bit of intel out there. Seems reasonable.

Pettersson has been playing badly for a year. May still continue to play poorly for the rest of the year. Maybe more. Do you really think him saying he wants to stay long-term on a losing club saves his face? For 8 years no less? He's going to get crucified regardless.

The best thing for Pettersson to do is to get out of the pressure cooker, away from the management and medical staff that doesn't respect his injuries, nagging or otherwise, or his stoic/reserved personality. Yet, he doesn't do it.

The guy actually choosing to vacate is the overt, old school, wear your heart on your sleeve 'leader' Miller... Where is the loyalty from this People's Champion? Why does he go?

I'm not ignoring anything, however i don't run with it to make definitive statements like 'the guy actually choosing to leave'.

unless you either know him or work for the club

 

[Ernie]

Player Discussion Post in thread 'Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil'

Dec 16, 2024

The Canucks don't have a 2nd defence pair, full stop.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. The numbers and the eye test do not lie.

The bottom two pairs are the worst that I have seen as a Canucks fan, and that's saying something.

Of course they're bad.

But they aren't an excuse for an $11 million player to be this bad. Again, Conor Garland plays a lower percentage of his ES TOI with Hughes than Pettersson does but he's somehow found a way to look fantastic this year.

Pettersson also played a roughly similar % of his TOI with Hughes back in 22-23 when he scored 100 points, and...

• MS

• 

We were having a discussion. You lost your shit, started resorting to personal attacks and accusing me of being a liar about all kinds of stuff when you in fact were the person posting wildly inaccurate stuff about Conor Garland. I backed up my claims. You posted a meme, put laughing emojis on everything, put your tail between your legs and left.

Are you actually calling this single sentence the biggest meltdown in the history of HFBoards?

Dude, you just starting dropping f-bombs all over the map. And you know this, because you clearly spent an hour at 12am digging up posts. Like, you absolutely know you are arguing in bad faith and have been from the beginning but just keep doubling down because you don't want to lose face to strangers on the internet.

Like, your recollection of that exchange isn't even remotely what actually happened. Again, weird.

Amusingly, you're inventing things again because you can look through that whole discussion and I never once remotely said 'his 24-25 data was as bad as 2022'. I said the top speed was also way down in 21-22 (it was) and that the speed bursts were down in a ratio we don't know relative to 1st half/2nd half (they were).

You absolutely said that his Edge data was bad in 2021-2022 like it is this year and therefore it proves he doesn't have an injury this year. In fact, it was the opposite. You can't throw in an imaginary splice to somehow retroactively justify your outright fabrication.

Top speed is irrelevant compared to speed bursts and anyone who knows the game knows it. It's a video game state.

On the Pettersson thing I actually did sort that later. There are a few people here who PM me inside stuff from time to time and it came from one of them who has a friend who works for the team. After several years I knew I had heard similar stuff before but got that confused with a media report. The poster in question is one of the more prominent/credible people here but the report is 3rd hand. Take it for what you will, which I assume will be continuing to insist I lied.

LOL. This is beyond ridiculous. Which prominent poster? What does their friend do? Don't make me post the IASIP meme again. You sure it wasn't Pettersson's BBQ salesman?

I'm pretty comfortable here. You're the one 'stroking out'.

Every post you make here shows a ridiculous level of anger. I'm just chilling.

 

[arttk]

As new/more info come out, I think it’s important for us to to update our priors. @MS you could be right that at some point Petey might not wanted to stick around but that has obviously changed.
He’s stated that he always wanted to stay after signing the contract, he actually signed the damn contract and also he’s also told the team that he wants to stay in the current environment.
If you still think he doesn’t want you, then you are just purposely giving more weight to gossips that is not grounded by action because you want to believe your own narrative.

 

[sting101]

Sure dude, anyone who has watched this thread has seen you unravel multiple times and it's pretty obvious it's about to happen again. 3..2..1.. until you start making shit up again.

What has he made up? You mean like the theory that everyone is sick of Miller you posted?

 

[MS]

Dude, you just starting dropping f-bombs all over the map. And you know this, because you clearly spent an hour at 12am digging up posts. Like, you absolutely know you are arguing in bad faith and have been from the beginning but just keep doubling down because you don't want to lose face to strangers on the internet.

Dude, we were both here at 12 am.

I did a pretty simple search, read through it a couple times to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering anything (and I wasn't) and then posted the link. It took 10 minutes.

And yes, when some idiot accuses me of being a liar I'll take the time to prove them wrong. I'm pretty sure most people would do the same.

That argument is pretty self-explanatory to anyone reading it. You flipped out and accused me of being a liar. I pretty conclusively showed I wasn't. You went all weird and left.

You absolutely said that his Edge data was bad in 2021-2022 like it is this year and therefore it proves he doesn't have an injury this year. In fact, it was the opposite. You can't throw in an imaginary splice to somehow retroactively justify your outright fabrication.

His edge numbers were down in 21-22 in terms of both top speed and speed bursts. This is an absolute fact. It's indisputable. But you accused me of being a liar for saying this, and continue to totally misquote me to continue on with your deluded belief that I'm lying.

Like, this is nuts. The numbers are the numbers. They're down. I said they were down. That is correct. But you're saying it's an 'outright fabrication'.

Top speed is irrelevant compared to speed bursts and anyone who knows the game knows it. It's a video game state.

Again, the speed bursts are inconclusive. If we had a game-by-game we could actually take something from it. We don't.

If he was speed-bursting at his 22-23 rate in the 2nd half of 21-22 when his play did a 180, that means that his bursts in the first half were way down.

LOL. This is beyond ridiculous. Which prominent poster? What does their friend do? Don't make me post the IASIP meme again. You sure it wasn't Pettersson's BBQ salesman?

I've asked them to confirm. Up to them. Take it for what you will.

Every post you make here shows a ridiculous level of anger. I'm just chilling.

I'm trying to talk about hockey.

You're literally following me around having a tantrum because you don't like the things I'm saying.

What have I said in this discussion that shows any level of anger? I'm just bewildered both by your behaviour and your interpretation of events.

 

[sting101]

You can post what you like. I can comment about what you're posting and the fact you are constantly blowing up this thread. If you don't like it, you could stop. Until then, I'll keep pointing it out. If you think that's weird, I could not possibly care less. It's definitely weird to be so incredibly angry all the time about this though.

Maybe address what he's posted vs trying to tell him he's overreacting and hyperventilating blowing up the thread or whatever?
You're the one that is making the thread a personal attack session not MS who frankly deserves some respect here. This is not some noob shit talking on HF Canucks out of high school.

As far as "BBQ salesman" i have some sources and shared some intel off the main streams. If you guys think Miller is the only one with some personality flaws you are out to lunch.

It's frankly unfathomable to me that after the GM Coach have COME OUT IN PUBLIC criticized him after BOESER and HUGHES the 2 biggest remaining core pieces and longest standing Canucks have interviews of "love and respect" and "leadership" for Miller (even after the 10 game absence) that the big bad wolf theory still exists and he's solely the problem

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm not ignoring anything, however i don't run with it to make definitive statements like 'the guy actually choosing to leave'.

unless you either know him or work for the club

How else would you interpret what has been shown? That he doesn't want to leave but has been entertaining trade calls from other teams? I'm genuinely curious here.

If they have asked him to leave and he does not want to go, he has an NTC he can invoke. Right? He can say, I'm not going anywhere. Correct?

At a certain point, refusing to infer anything is suspect. You end up being further away from the truth/are putting the blinders on.

 

[pitseleh]

Tocchet took a 100 pt player and made him into a 65 pt player. Well you know Petey is trying to play as the coach wants even if he can't, he still tries.

I think part of it is we have to accept that Tocchet’s approach and tendencies toward player selection means that the team’s hockey card stats are probably going to be lower than they otherwise would be (and that’s probably ok if it keeps pucks out of the Canucks’ net).

For instance, Miller broke 100 points last year, but to do so he needed a 20% SH%, a 15% on-ice SH% (by far the highest in the league amongst regular players), and elite PP production (6th in the league in PP points). I accept that because Tocchet’s system limits low quality shots for, the team will run higher SH%s than would normally be expected, but no one has ever sustained that level of outperformance. And Miller’s performance last year is about as good of an offensive performance as I can imagine under this coach.

Under more normal percentages that’s an 85-90 point season, which maybe should be the benchmark absent good percentages luck.

 

[sting101]

I think part of it is we have to accept that Tocchet’s approach and tendencies toward player selection means that the team’s hockey card stats are probably going to be lower than they otherwise would be (and that’s probably ok if it keeps pucks out of the Canucks’ net).

For instance, Miller broke 100 points last year, but to do so he needed a 20% SH%, a 15% on-ice SH% (by far the highest in the league amongst regular players), and elite PP production (6th in the league in PP points). I accept that because Tocchet’s system limits low quality shots for, the team will run higher SH%s than would normally be expected, but no one has ever sustained that level of outperformance. And Miller’s performance last year is about as good of an offensive performance as I can imagine under this coach.

Under more normal percentages that’s an 85-90 point season, which maybe should be the benchmark absent good percentages luck.

Love this data Pitseleh

Teams have clearly adjusted to our attack tendencies also now that the team is a threat and have studied how Tocchet wants to play. Add losses of Hronek Zadorov Cole and having to skate through lock down defensive postures with poor starts and here we are

 

[Bleach Clean]

Maybe address what he's posted vs trying to tell him he's overreacting and hyperventilating blowing up the thread or whatever?
You're the one that is making the thread a personal attack session not MS who frankly deserves some respect here. This is not some noob shit talking on HF Canucks out of high school.

As far as "BBQ salesman" i have some sources and if you guys think Miller is the only one with some personality flaws you are out to lunch.

It's frankly unfathomable to me that after the GM Coach have COME OUT IN PUBLIC criticized him after BOESER and HUGHES the 2 biggest remaining core pieces and longest standing Canucks have interviews of "love and respect" and "leadership" for Miller (even after the 10 game absence) that the big bad wolf theory still exists and he's solely the problem

How many media videos and rumours regarding Miller causing tension (Horvat/Pettersson/Others) would you need to see before understanding he is the main issue here? (I've got a few going back to when Horvat was here.)

Pettersson can be an introvert they are frustrated in trying to reach, but he's not the one who had to leave to recollect himself for 10 days. It's the difference between being A problem and THE problem.


Last: MS deserves no respect for the tact he has taken here. Both in terms in how he has engaged posters on the major issues with the team the past few years (particularly Ernie and Bossram), nor in his secret intel. You have a source? Post it. Otherwise, move along.

 

[sting101]

How many media videos and rumours regarding Miller causing tension (Horvat/Pettersson/Others) would you need to see before understanding he is the main issue here? (I've got a few going back to when Horvat was here.)

Pettersson can be an introvert they are frustrated in trying to reach, but he's not the one who had to leave to recollect himself for 10 days.


Last: MS deserves no respect for the tact he has taken here. Both in terms in how he has engaged posters on the major issues with the team the past few years (particularly Ernie and Bossram), nor in his secret intel. You have a source? Post it. Otherwise, move along.

No Man the main issue here is that even as outwardly alpha and graining as Miller can be Pettersson is the only core piece that has had such issue that it spilled over into being unable to play with each other. If you all were happy with the OEL Eriksson Virtanen entitlement retirement community than i can see why Miller being so outwardly driven to win would be offensive

Just because Pettersson says he wants to stay (and might just want to get the control he desires by doing so) doesn't make him some loyal soldier when he has been culpable.

As far as 10 games Pettersson has been missing for 80 games? If the players knew he was going through health issues more than the "off ice stuff" Hughes referenced in his interview why would they be defending and supporting Miller??

MS got some info from me. I'm not gonna devolve sources and you can throw shots if you want i dont care but i know a couple people connected and shared some info in private they told me to him before. I'm only saying anything because he's been getting lit up for it unfairly. Don't expect it from me in this type of setting....moving along

 

[Bleach Clean]

A bit more: Pettersson is at 2.4 P/60 in his career at ES when not playing with Kuzmenko. 3.7 with (screwed up the rounding before).

If Pettersson had two more even strength points this year he’d be at his career average production without Kuzmenko.

Even in 22/23 and 23/24, when not playing with either Hughes or Kuzmenko, Petterson only ran a 43% CF%, comparable to his numbers away from Hughes this year.

Pettersson ran a 51% CF% with Kuzmenko but without Hughes, so he was better in that way. But a lot of his production during that period was SH% driven - Pettersson’s career on ice SH % is 10.9%, but that breaks down to 10.2% without Kuzmenko, 14.1% with. At 10.2% instead of 14.1% on ice SH%, his P/60 with Kuzmenko would have dropped to 2.7, much closer to his career norms.

Pettersson has ultimately never generated a ton of offensive volume at ES. Would require some pretty big changes in results to improve there. The question has to be whether his run with Kuzmenko was just lightning in a bottle or if there is some way to get him back to converting at a higher rate.

The PP of course is a different story.

I have less concern for the PP because he will be promoted there should Miller leave. He will also get Hughes at ES.

He's running at a 54% Corsi percentage this year, but I'm assuming that's data mixed with some Hughes on ice time.

He had a 60.1 Shot Attempts For % with Hoglander and Boeser (81 minutes in 2023-24). Higher than his 54.8% with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev in 181.5 mins.

The question is, will he find offensive chemistry with another forward as he had done with Kuzmenko? To me, they've been looking for a Pettersson winger for some time and the best they've done is a net-crasher/tip producer in DeBrusk. They need a skilled playmaker to unlock his potential.

I think it's a worry, but that worry will also draw management's focus in addressing his linemates.

 

[arttk]

I think part of it is we have to accept that Tocchet’s approach and tendencies toward player selection means that the team’s hockey card stats are probably going to be lower than they otherwise would be (and that’s probably ok if it keeps pucks out of the Canucks’ net).

For instance, Miller broke 100 points last year, but to do so he needed a 20% SH%, a 15% on-ice SH% (by far the highest in the league amongst regular players), and elite PP production (6th in the league in PP points). I accept that because Tocchet’s system limits low quality shots for, the team will run higher SH%s than would normally be expected, but no one has ever sustained that level of outperformance. And Miller’s performance last year is about as good of an offensive performance as I can imagine under this coach.

Under more normal percentages that’s an 85-90 point season, which maybe should be the benchmark absent good percentages luck.

I don't think Tocchet wants to employ the current system as is. He tried to change the system to be more open and he went back on it not because it was too risky, he went back on it because he felt like the new players don't have the fundamentals drilled hard enough and probably because our D sucks at it. I imagine he has no issues reimplementing those changes once we get better D and the new players have the fundamentals drilled into their head.

 

[pitseleh]

I have less concern for the PP because he will be promoted there should Miller leave. He will also get Hughes at ES.

He's running at a 54% Corsi percentage this year, but I'm assuming that's data mixed with some Hughes on ice time.

He had a 60.1 Shot Attempts For % with Hoglander and Boeser (81 minutes in 2023-24). Higher than his 54.8% with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev in 181.5 mins.

The question is, will he find offensive chemistry with another forward as he had done with Kuzmenko? To me, they've been looking for a Pettersson winger for some time and the best they've done is a net-crasher/tip producer in DeBrusk. They need a skilled playmaker to unlock his potential.

I think it's a worry, but that worry will also draw management's focus in addressing his linemates.

I agree but it’s going to be quite a feat to both find a skilled winger to complement Pettersson and find a quality scorer to play behind him in the lineup. And without both of those I think it’s going to be a challenge to compete.

I don't think Tocchet wants to employ the current system as is. He tried to change the system to be more open and he went back on it not because it was too risky, he went back on it because he felt like the new players don't have the fundamentals drilled hard enough and probably because our D sucks at it. I imagine he has no issues reimplementing those changes once we get better D and the new players have the fundamentals drilled into their head.

I agree with that. The team has to play in a shell for half the game given the defence they have.

But I’m also not convinced that even if the team had more talent on defence that they’d have the rope to hit those top end offensive totals. We’ll see though.

 

[rypper]

Here's a take that isn't based in stats or facts, and is entirely anecdotal. Back when the team was in a will they/won't they between who to sign or trade with Miller and Horvat, I thought it should be Miller then, because Pettersson strikes me as the type of player who's better when he's the guy.

Of course Miller elevated his game and changed my opinion drastically. But I come back to it, I thought they should trade Miller so that the team could become EPs and everything would run through him (and Hughes) i think he excels in that position and having Miller there kind muddled it. He willingly took a backseat to the louder voice, bigger personality, etc.

If Miller goes maybe he'll adapt. Or he'll stay the same frustrating player he's been this season, outside of some glimmers.