Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[Jay26]

I've been hard on Pettersson for awhile but I truly do feel for him the more I piece together about this. We're right to expect lots from him and it's absolutely fair to say that he shouldn't get tons of excuses.

That being said, I do know all too well how some people are wired differently. It may be that, as good a hockey player as Pettersson is, he's just not the locker room type guy that's generally required in professional team sports. This part of it isn't is his fault. It's just who he is.

I don't know, maybe I'm now jumping to the other side of the issue and going from being harsh to a bleeding heart, but when another gritty hockey player even suggests that Miller is being too hard on him it makes me think that this all must be a living hell for Pettersson. One thing I have said from the very beginning is I don't believe for a second Petey doesn't give a shit. He's genuinely going through a struggle, but a different kind.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I think there's this kernel of wisdom that kicks loose when my shit really hits the fan. I think there's a reason your body just starts to hit a wall at 28 that makes you appreciate what little you still have left to give. Good to be on the winning side of life for a change after all these years my boys.

As Gord Downie said, there's nuthin' uglier than a man meeting his stride or whatever

I think this generation of fans is going to be the best. They will get to experience all the highs and lows Canucks fandom has to offer in such a short period of time. It will age them, miserably. But you'll get your Cup fellas. Something special musta been in the water in 2010. I truly believe as long as the Sedins are with the organization, the best things will happen.

MMW Vancouver will be the hub of Canada.

 

[Jay26]

I do maintain though that there's no excuse for Pettersson not to be in better shape. Somehow he's got to figure out the motivation and the commitment, and the desire even, to get stronger and better built for the rigors of hockey. Mental stuff is one thing - for some of us it's an eternal struggle that isn't always completely in our control. But you're a very rich professional athlete with all the means to improve yourself. You've got to pick one of those means and do it.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I do maintain though that there's no excuse for Pettersson not to be in better shape. Somehow he's got to figure out the motivation and the commitment, and the desire even, to get stronger and better built for the rigors of hockey. Mental stuff is one thing - for some of us it's an eternal struggle that isn't always completely in our control. But you're a very rich professional athlete with all the means to improve yourself. You've got to pick one of those means and do it.

Remember to trace your mental breadcrumbs backwards as well. I feel for him, but his agent is about to be fired I think. Or was he already? I don't really give too many shits about that sorta thing anymore.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Patrick Johnston on whether Pettersson has been playing through an injury / tendonitis or not (12:53).

 

[pitseleh]

One angle that can’t be discounted is that Pettersson’s fall could be in part just the rebound after catching lightning in a bottle.

22/23 is a clear aberration in his record and it came at even strength with (1) an 85% IPP compared to a career average closer to 70, (2) higher than average on-ice SH%, and (3) worse defensive results under run and gun Boudreau than he gets now. The scoring has decreased as those numbers have come back down and his defensive results have improved.

If you just adjust his 22/23 season to an 11% on ice shooting percentage and a 70% IPP, Pettersson drops to about 80 points that season. You’d have a bigger drop if you account for playing lower event hockey.

Then his whole career would look pretty similar and this season in the range of normal.

 

[VanJack]

That interview and comments from Brad Richardson put a new perspective on things for me.

I would seem the problems between Pettersson and Miller go back to the days of J.T's arrival in Vancouver four seasons ago.

Beginning to understand why these two guys have 'reached a crossroads' in the room. One of them has to go.

 

[Lawzy]

Anyone advocating for trading Pettersson deserves all the misery that comes with being a Canucks fan.

 

[mriswith]

One angle that can’t be discounted is that Pettersson’s fall could be in part just the rebound after catching lightning in a bottle.

22/23 is a clear aberration in his record and it came at even strength with (1) an 85% IPP compared to a career average closer to 70, (2) higher than average on-ice SH%, and (3) worse defensive results under run and gun Boudreau than he gets now. The scoring has decreased as those numbers have come back down and his defensive results have improved.

If you just adjust his 22/23 season to an 11% on ice shooting percentage and a 70% IPP, Pettersson drops to about 80 points that season. You’d have a bigger drop if you account for playing lower event hockey.

Then his whole career would look pretty similar and this season in the range of normal.

I'm not saying your point here is wrong; however, any explanation trying to merge his current play with the rest of his career has to account for his complete loss of top end speed and loss of his shot.

It isn't just that the results are different, it's also that two major aspects of his game are gone. The top end speed he had for 5 years is gone and the wrister and slapper he used to love and would use all the time never happen anymore.

The fact that immediately after he took that one vintage wrist shot his last game, the kind of shot he never does anymore, and then immediately one or two shifts later he's out with an upper body injury after nothing else happened on ice is incredibly suspect.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is not true. I don't know why this keeps getting stated.

Last season, Hughes played just shy of 26 minutes more with Miller than he did with Petey. Two seasons ago, Quinn played with Petey slightly more. Objectively, it's very much close to equal.

As for wingers, two seasons ago. Petey was certainly better with Kuzmenko than Boeser (who Miller played with). Last season, Petey played with Mik and Hog mostly. Hog was better with Petey than Miller. Last season Miller was tied to Boeser. Miller's other frequent wingers were PDG (he's closer to being the worst winger) and Suter.

If you're saying that Miller has the best wingers, you're really just talking about Boeser. Again, two seasons ago, Kuzmenko was certainly beter than Boeser alongside Petey. Last season, Boeser was by far the best winger but after that, aside from Garland, the next best winger was Hoglander (who played with Petey more than Miller). This season, Miller is again playing mostly with Boeser but Petey has been playing with DeBrusk. In fact, this season, Garland, Debrusk, Sherwood have spent more time with Petey than they did with Miller. Suter spent more time with Miller but he's mostly been playing C. Objectively, Boeser, aside, Petey has been playing with the best wingers this season.

Can you give exact minutes.

 

[Nucker101]

Can you give exact minutes.

at 5v5 last year according to Natural Stat Trick:

 

[me2]

I’ll bet Hughes can’t wait to get out of here.

Almost a lock if they team trades Pete and implodes, Boeser walks, Miller goes into a sulk and wants out.

That's one possible scenario if trade doesn't work out. Sucks to be management right now because they need Pete playing and playing well.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

The fact that immediately after he took that one vintage wrist shot his last game, the kind of shot he never does anymore, and then immediately one or two shifts later he's out with an upper body injury after nothing else happened on ice is incredibly suspect.

Geez so on top of the knee tendinitis that robbed him of his speed for almost a whole year, now he can't even take a shot without injuring himself!? Is he turning into a Sami Salo on forward!?

My god, this is only the first of a 8 year $11.6m contract! What a cursed franchise.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

at 5v5 last year according to Natural Stat Trick:

View attachment 954684

Thanks.

Im unable to find the with / without website. Where the heckin heck is it?

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Love the arguments being made that 'Petey had Kuzmenko on his line coming off of a 39 goal year, Miller only had Boeser".

Yes, Kuzmenko had that year BECAUSE of Petey. Or do you think that a young Mario Lemieux was lucky to have Warren Young on his line, and Gretzky was lucky to have Blair Macdonald on his line?

I do think that DeBrusk is one good winger for Petey, but he needs another guy who thinks the game in a european, creative way. Kuzmenko hasn't shown much since he left Petey's wing, but he thought the game in a similar way. Doesn't need to be a 10 million dollar player, but it would be nice to see someone who tries to create and utilize space in a similar way.

Let's not forget he also turned water into wine in the form of Goldobin once upon a time and played well (briefly) with Baertschi too.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I do maintain though that there's no excuse for Pettersson not to be in better shape. Somehow he's got to figure out the motivation and the commitment, and the desire even, to get stronger and better built for the rigors of hockey. Mental stuff is one thing - for some of us it's an eternal struggle that isn't always completely in our control. But you're a very rich professional athlete with all the means to improve yourself. You've got to pick one of those means and do it.

He probably already has the motivation and the commitment and the desire.

Its very unlikely that he doesnt.

 

[pitseleh]

I'm not saying your point here is wrong; however, any explanation trying to merge his current play with the rest of his career has to account for his complete loss of top end speed and loss of his shot.

It isn't just that the results are different, it's also that two major aspects of his game are gone. The top end speed he had for 5 years is gone and the wrister and slapper he used to love and would use all the time never happen anymore.

The fact that immediately after he took that one vintage wrist shot his last game, the kind of shot he never does anymore, and then immediately one or two shifts later he's out with an upper body injury after nothing else happened on ice is incredibly suspect.

I agree on the speed aspect. I think there’s enough in the data to say something is different, whether due to injury or inability to train in the offseason.

I’m not sure I agree on the shot. His shot was fine last season. There hasn’t been any indication of a new injury in the last calendar year. His numbers are down a bit this year compared to the rest of the league but he also isn’t getting teed up on the PP in the same way as he used to so it shouldn’t be surprising his numbers are down a bit this year.

I think the physical stuff is affecting him but I don’t think it is enough to explain a (perceived) 90-100 point player turning into a ~60 point player over his last season’s worth of games, but it is a better explanation if he was otherwise a 70-80 point player.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I agree on the speed aspect. I think there’s enough in the data to say something is different, whether due to injury or inability to train in the offseason.

I’m not sure I agree on the shot. His shot was fine last season. There hasn’t been any indication of a new injury in the last calendar year. His numbers are down a bit this year compared to the rest of the league but he also isn’t getting teed up on the PP in the same way as he used to so it shouldn’t be surprising his numbers are down a bit this year.

I think the physical stuff is affecting him but I don’t think it is enough to explain a (perceived) 90-100 point player turning into a ~60 point player over his last season’s worth of games, but it is a better explanation if he was otherwise a 70-80 point player.

His top speed is the same as Elias Lindholms.

He used to be amongst the fastest 5%.

It changes every aspect of his game. Add to that our Ds complete inability to reliably move the puck and it explains so much.

 

[Bobby9]

I've been hard on Pettersson for awhile but I truly do feel for him the more I piece together about this. We're right to expect lots from him and it's absolutely fair to say that he shouldn't get tons of excuses.

That being said, I do know all too well how some people are wired differently. It may be that, as good a hockey player as Pettersson is, he's just not the locker room type guy that's generally required in professional team sports. This part of it isn't is his fault. It's just who he is.

I don't know, maybe I'm now jumping to the other side of the issue and going from being harsh to a bleeding heart, but when another gritty hockey player even suggests that Miller is being too hard on him it makes me think that this all must be a living hell for Pettersson. One thing I have said from the very beginning is I don't believe for a second Petey doesn't give a shit. He's genuinely going through a struggle, but a different kind.

Miller has called him out.
Allvin has called him out.
JR has called him out.
Tocchet has called him out.
Hell, he's even called himself out for playing poorly.


Is that not proof enough for you to see that the team has an idea of what they expect from him and he's unable to fill that role?

He's a fragile minded and fragile bodied player who needs to be coddled. At 11.6M thats totally unacceptable.

 

[Jyrki21]

I think there's this kernel of wisdom that kicks loose when my shit really hits the fan.

This can void the warranty on the fan, BTW -- just a heads-up.

 

[Breakers]

Miller has called him out.
Allvin has called him out.
JR has called him out.
Tocchet has called him out.
Hell, he's even called himself out for playing poorly.


Is that not proof enough for you to see that the team has an idea of what they expect from him and he's unable to fill that role?

He's a fragile minded and fragile bodied player who needs to be coddled. At 11.6M thats totally unacceptable.

I wouldnt say fragile bodied
missing 4 games in 3 seasons is pretty durable

fragile minded.... yup

 

[Nucker101]

Thanks.

Im unable to find the with / without website. Where the heckin heck is it?

I mainly use this one even though the interface looks like it’s 20 years old

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

This can void the warranty on the fan, BTW -- just a heads-up.

The warranty was never that great anyway. At least for me

 

[God]

Miller has called him out.
Allvin has called him out.
JR has called him out.
Tocchet has called him out.
Hell, he's even called himself out for playing poorly.


Is that not proof enough for you to see that the team has an idea of what they expect from him and he's unable to fill that role?

He's a fragile minded and fragile bodied player who needs to be coddled. At 11.6M thats totally unacceptable.

Obviously, we all want Pettersson to succeed. But being called out by this many levels of the team is concerning, and with PJ saying this isn't an injury issue, it's pretty obvious that the excuses over the last ~3k posts are wearing thin with the people in charge. Petey got the same contract as William Nylander, who is about to put up another 40 goal season. Mitch Marner got called out by his teammates last season and is about to put up another 100 points. We need EP to get over this.

 

[Bobby9]

Obviously, we all want Pettersson to succeed. But being called out by this many levels of the team is concerning, and with PJ saying this isn't an injury issue, it's pretty obvious that the excuses over the last ~3k posts are wearing thin with the people in charge. Petey got the same contract as William Nylander, who is about to put up another 40 goal season. Mitch Marner got called out by his teammates last season and is about to put up another 100 points. We need EP to get over this.

Yeah but whats the EDGE data say and who runs their medical department?