Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[F A N]

Miller has always gotten the plum treatment - best wingers and majority of Hughes shifts.

This is not true. I don't know why this keeps getting stated.

Last season, Hughes played just shy of 26 minutes more with Miller than he did with Petey. Two seasons ago, Quinn played with Petey slightly more. Objectively, it's very much close to equal.

As for wingers, two seasons ago. Petey was certainly better with Kuzmenko than Boeser (who Miller played with). Last season, Petey played with Mik and Hog mostly. Hog was better with Petey than Miller. Last season Miller was tied to Boeser. Miller's other frequent wingers were PDG (he's closer to being the worst winger) and Suter.

If you're saying that Miller has the best wingers, you're really just talking about Boeser. Again, two seasons ago, Kuzmenko was certainly beter than Boeser alongside Petey. Last season, Boeser was by far the best winger but after that, aside from Garland, the next best winger was Hoglander (who played with Petey more than Miller). This season, Miller is again playing mostly with Boeser but Petey has been playing with DeBrusk. In fact, this season, Garland, Debrusk, Sherwood have spent more time with Petey than they did with Miller. Suter spent more time with Miller but he's mostly been playing C. Objectively, Boeser, aside, Petey has been playing with the best wingers this season.

 

[poler]

Here is TOI this season compared to other players. Notice since miller was gone for 10 games so Petterson had more time with Hughes during that.

 

[Hodgy]

The linemates argument has largely being acknowledged on here. As have been the merits of an injury being partly responsible for Petey’s poor play. And certainly it can be debated further, but at the end of the day and based on my quick math, you have an 11.6 million dollar player that’s been scoring at a .69 ppg pace since February 20th of last year (inclusive of playoffs).

So, sure, there are going to be external factors hurting his production. I get that, and he’s not some exceptional case in that regard. Look at the players Draisaitl plays with at even strength.

But if it was all about linemates then you’d have expected to see Pettersson look good on the power play….but he hasn’t. He looks much the same as at even strength.

Unless there is some debilitating injury, which seems unlikely given what Pettersson, Allvin and Tocchett have said, there really is no “full” excuse for Pettersson. And even if he was quite setiusiy injured, it’s still pretty concerning as you’d like to see your top player perform regardless of the circumstances when he’s been deemed healthy enough to play (e.g., Drasaitl last playoffs who was extremely effective against us while llsying through what looked like a pretty debilitating injury).

Of course, as I’ve mentioned a bunch of times, the. Vancouver fan base, at large, has actually been extremely supportive of Pettersson through his struggles. So it’s odd, to me, how overly defensive some posters have gotten on here about his treatment.

 

[wetcoast]

This is not true. I don't know why this keeps getting stated.

Last season, Hughes played just shy of 26 minutes more with Miller than he did with Petey. Two seasons ago, Quinn played with Petey slightly more. Objectively, it's very much close to equal.

As for wingers, two seasons ago. Petey was certainly better with Kuzmenko than Boeser (who Miller played with). Last season, Petey played with Mik and Hog mostly. Hog was better with Petey than Miller. Last season Miller was tied to Boeser. Miller's other frequent wingers were PDG (he's closer to being the worst winger) and Suter.

If you're saying that Miller has the best wingers, you're really just talking about Boeser. Again, two seasons ago, Kuzmenko was certainly beter than Boeser alongside Petey. Last season, Boeser was by far the best winger but after that, aside from Garland, the next best winger was Hoglander (who played with Petey more than Miller). This season, Miller is again playing mostly with Boeser but Petey has been playing with DeBrusk. In fact, this season, Garland, Debrusk, Sherwood have spent more time with Petey than they did with Miller. Suter spent more time with Miller but he's mostly been playing C. Objectively, Boeser, aside, Petey has been playing with the best wingers this season.

Man if anyone is using Kuzmenko in any "better" supporting player argument.........

Petey has his problems to be sure but he also hasn't had great players to play with either.

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[Kryten]

Even if we entertain the idea of Petey not getting Hughes minutes or better linemates, the fact remains that he has struggled to maintain any lasting chemistry with anyone. Theres a reason Miller and Boeser are paired up. Petey and whoever will gel for a while and then completely fall apart

 

[poler]

Even if we entertain the idea of Petey not getting Hughes minutes or better linemates, the fact remains that he has struggled to maintain any lasting chemistry with anyone. Theres a reason Miller and Boeser are paired up. Petey and whoever will gel for a while and then completely fall apart

Just like the ten games when miller was out Petey had 15 points in 10 games was definitely falling apart

 

[Kryten]

Just like the ten games when miller was out Petey had 15 points in 10 games was definitely falling apart

Yea which is why this whole thing is frustrating. Everyone knows how good he can be

 

[rypper]

Pettersson dragged around the broken body of Illya Mikheyev and rotating cast of ahl players on the other wing but tell me more about how he's had as good linemates as Miller.

 

[Hodgy]

Even if we entertain the idea of Petey not getting Hughes minutes or better linemates, the fact remains that he has struggled to maintain any lasting chemistry with anyone. Theres a reason Miller and Boeser are paired up. Petey and whoever will gel for a while and then completely fall apart

He’s also been poor on the power play where he plays with the teams other top players.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

This place is full of shit and excuses. EP has always been given the priority linemates.

After getting bodyslammed as a rookie, the team traded a 1st for JT TO PLAY WITH EP, take the draws and mash any faces that touched the golden boy. EP played himself off that line. Team goes out and gets Kuz, who was by far our best winger. Then Debrusk gets his big deal and starts with EP. Any player with a hot hand gets put on the EP line, and pulled as soon as they go cold. Sherwood, Hogs, Garland etc.

Now many want to pretend they didn't want JT's entire line that started last year traded. There isn't a soul that would have taken Boeser/Hogs/PDG/Suter over Kuz/Mikheyev

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Man if anyone is using Kuzmenko in any "better" supporting player argument.........

Petey has his problems to be sure but he also hasn't had great players to play with either.

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Within the same salary range as Petey, Pastrnak also doesn't get the best linemates either, yet he just keep on producing. When Stone was out, Eichel makes it work with lesser wingers. Nylander is playing with Kampf as his center right now. MacKinnon is currently not playing with Rantanen 5 on 5 right now either. McDavid and Draisatl has been separated at even strength for over a month now. Etc etc.

I mean yes, usually players paid $10m+ also has elite linemates, but they still find a way to produce even when they are not. That's what separates the elites ($10m+ players) vs the very good players, they find a way to produce no matter what. If Petey wants to be paid and recognize as one of the best, he can't just fall back on "but I need good linemates" excuse.

 

[mriswith]

No one is saying linemates are 100% an explanation. Something else is majorly wrong with EP and literally everyone agrees with this. Don't straw man this into something it's not.

Boeser is our best winger and yes, getting Boeser stapled to your wing on the ice is a lot better than both wings being a useless Mik/Hog/Lafferty. Kuz being a major upgrade on that bunch speaks volumes seeing as his career has been in free fall trending to out of the league soon after getting split from EP

The situation last year for EP was unique, many other superstars play with bad players but none of them spend the majority of a season with two 4th line calibre wings stapled to them and get deprioritized for their top d pairing. There is an oceanic gap between having one good winger and one bad winger, and having two bad wingers.

And yes, slumping EP with garbage wingers was still able to drive play and win his matchups without Hughes, whereas Miller with better wingers lost his matchups without Hughes.

That was true last year and is still true this year, although EP's wingers are much better this year. Slumping EP can drive play without Hughes and Miller can't and EP farming other teams while Miller was out speaks volumes.

I'm not going to rehash this now one year old argument yet again and especially not with anyone who was willing to argue for months on a topic and then in the end claim they never disagreed in the first place.

 

[Hodgy]

No one is saying linemates are 100% an explanation. Something else is majorly wrong with EP and literally everyone agrees with this. Don't straw man this into something it's not.

Boeser is our best winger and yes, getting Boeser stapled to your wing on the ice is a lot better than both wings being a useless Mik/Hog/Lafferty. Kuz being a major upgrade on that bunch speaks volumes seeing as his career has been in free fall trending to out of the league soon after getting split from EP

The situation last year for EP was unique, many other superstars play with bad players but none of them spend the majority of a season with two 4th line calibre wings stapled to them and get deprioritized for their top d pairing. There is an oceanic gap between having one good winger and one bad winger, and having two bad wingers.

And yes, slumping EP with garbage wingers was still able to drive play and win his matchups without Hughes, whereas Miller with better wingers lost his matchups without Hughes.

That was true last year and is still true this year, although EP's wingers are much better this year. Slumping EP can drive play without Hughes and Miller can't and EP farming other teams while Miller was out speaks volumes.

I'm not going to rehash this now one year old argument yet again and especially not with anyone who was willing to argue for months on a topic and then in the end claim they never disagreed in the first place.

I like to debate the minutiae and critique the evidence and weigh it. For me, most of our debate was finding our differences and debating those. We share many fundamental beliefs but we certainly are not 100% aligned. My issue is that my views are often not accurately represented and I’m probably overly sensitive to that. I’m happy to move on. Ultimately I think we both like Pettersson and appreciate that there are lots of issues with him right now.

 

[geebster]

This place is full of shit and excuses. EP has always been given the priority linemates.

After getting bodyslammed as a rookie, the team traded a 1st for JT TO PLAY WITH EP, take the draws and mash any faces that touched the golden boy. EP played himself off that line. Team goes out and gets Kuz, who was by far our best winger. Then Debrusk gets his big deal and starts with EP. Any player with a hot hand gets put on the EP line, and pulled as soon as they go cold. Sherwood, Hogs, Garland etc.

Now many want to pretend they didn't want JT's entire line that started last year traded. There isn't a soul that would have taken Boeser/Hogs/PDG/Suter over Kuz/Mikheyev

I would absolutely take all 4 over Kuz and Mikheyev last year. The year before that I'd take Kuz but Mikheyev was useless compared go Boeser and Hoglander even then. I'd have taken Suter if we had him over Mikheyev that year.

You can't mix time frames. Hoglander this year is worse than Kuz or Mikheyev but he sure as heck wasn't last year. Boeser had 40 last year. Miller gets our teams best winger and the world's best defenseman and has consistently done so for 1.5 seasons now. Petey does a heck of a lot more than JT does in terms of 200 ft game so it's overall a good plan and JT is also often hard matched against the top line and so is Hughes so it lines up and makes sense.

The issue is this year when we see that Petey goes 1.5 points per game, we win most of our games... then Miller comes back and plays bad but is given priority anyways. Starts OT over and over even if he's losing his assignments and giving up shorthanded goals and OT winners left and right... that seems like a problem. I've maintained that they should've played Miller less til his conditioning improved and he got his game back and let Petey continue to play with Hughes etc. Too late now though, Miller needs to step up and take games over in their absence. With this F thats a very tough call.

I don't want JT to get more criticism. But it is odd that he gets so little. Guy has skipped 2 months (once in Preseason and once in season), been a direct reason for multiple losses, and was part of a childish feud on top of it. If Petey skipped a month for reasons we don't know and came back slow and losing defensive assignments in OT etc... people would have stuff to say about it. We need more consistency from Petey, we need to get him some sports psych or whatever it takes. Clearly JT yelling at him and being hard on him or the media or fan criticism hasn't fixed anything. Mackinnon was trending to be a pretty similar player til he got sports psych and worked on his mental game. Petey can be a legit superstar if we can get him there and its worth the effort, not only because of the potential pay off but also because you sure as heck won't win that trade.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

I would absolutely take all 4 over Kuz and Mikheyev last year. The year before that I'd take Kuz but Mikheyev was useless compared go Boeser and Hoglander even then. I'd have taken Suter if we had him over Mikheyev that year.

You can't mix time frames. Hoglander this year is worse than Kuz or Mikheyev but he sure as heck wasn't last year. Boeser had 40 last year. Miller gets our teams best winger and the world's best defenseman and has consistently done so for 1.5 seasons now. Petey does a heck of a lot more than JT does in terms of 200 ft game so it's overall a good plan and JT is also often hard matched against the top line and so is Hughes so it lines up and makes sense.

The issue is this year when we see that Petey goes 1.5 points per game, we win most of our games... then Miller comes back and plays bad but is given priority anyways. Starts OT over and over even if he's losing his assignments and giving up shorthanded goals and OT winners left and right... that seems like a problem. I've maintained that they should've played Miller less til his conditioning improved and he got his game back and let Petey continue to play with Hughes etc. Too late now though, Miller needs to step up and take games over in their absence. With this F thats a very tough call.

I don't want JT to get more criticism. But it is odd that he gets so little. Guy has skipped 2 months (once in Preseason and once in season), been a direct reason for multiple losses, and was part of a childish feud on top of it. If Petey skipped a month for reasons we don't know and came back slow and losing defensive assignments in OT etc... people would have stuff to say about it. We need more consistency from Petey, we need to get him some sports psych or whatever it takes. Clearly JT yelling at him and being hard on him or the media or fan criticism hasn't fixed anything. Mackinnon was trending to be a pretty similar player til he got sports psych and worked on his mental game. Petey can be a legit superstar if we can get him there and its worth the effort, not only because of the potential pay off but also because you sure as heck won't win that trade.

But you are using hindsight, and end of the year totals to change your choices.

The team, every year, goes out, and spends $/assets specifically on players to help EP. Every season. Kuz was coming off a 39g season, Mik was a 20+ goal paced guy the previous 2 years. This is what he was given to work with, and it was unanimously seen as the best pair on the team.

Miller was given Boeser coming off a 18g season, and Hogs who spent the previous year in the AHL. This board wanted ALL 3 traded that offseason.

One line played well, the other didn't.

Hot hands are rotated through EP's line, to get HIM going, while slumping players rotate through JT's line, to get THEM going, including EP. There's a big difference.

JT has top 10 scoring finishes, both with a 46p and 40g Boeser, and with a 68p and 90p Hughes. EP has been hugely reliant on others in comparison, and has needed everything to go right to perform as well.

 

[Jay26]

We're still arguing about linemates and stuff when the first hand evidence (most recently from Brad Richardson) points to Pettersson's problems being personal, rather than his surroundings. The issue is clearly Miller has been over the top tough on him, but that also implies there's something to be tough on him for. Fitness? Mental? Commitment? These are the issues. Pettersson is more than capable of figuring out the hockey of it all otherwise (like, say, less than ideal linemates or not much time with Hughes).

 

[SillyRabbit]

We're still arguing about linemates and stuff when the first hand evidence (most recently from Brad Richardson) points to Pettersson's problems being personal, rather than his surroundings. The issue is clearly Miller has been over the top tough on him, but that also implies there's something to be tough on him for. Fitness? Mental? Commitment? These are the issues. Pettersson is more than capable of figuring out the hockey of it all otherwise (like, say, less than ideal linemates or not much time with Hughes).

Pettersson was dominant as rookie and Hughes wasn’t even on the team.

He didn’t need Hughes to create plays for him, he did it himself.

 

[beachcomber]

I’ll bet Hughes can’t wait to get out of here.

 

[wetcoast]

Within the same salary range as Petey, Pastrnak also doesn't get the best linemates either, yet he just keep on producing. When Stone was out, Eichel makes it work with lesser wingers. Nylander is playing with Kampf as his center right now. MacKinnon is currently not playing with Rantanen 5 on 5 right now either. McDavid and Draisatl has been separated at even strength for over a month now. Etc etc.

I mean yes, usually players paid $10m+ also has elite linemates, but they still find a way to produce even when they are not. That's what separates the elites ($10m+ players) vs the very good players, they find a way to produce no matter what. If Petey wants to be paid and recognize as one of the best, he can't just fall back on "but I need good linemates" excuse.

The comparison was EP40 to JT and I posted the results from last year and I didn't check all of your stats but Mack has had Rantanen for over 60% of the time as ES this year.

Sure Petey needs to step up but the fact of the matter is that most players in his salary range don't get shafted with crappy linemates as much as he does.

 

[Bubbles]

We're still arguing about linemates and stuff when the first hand evidence (most recently from Brad Richardson) points to Pettersson's problems being personal, rather than his surroundings. The issue is clearly Miller has been over the top tough on him, but that also implies there's something to be tough on him for. Fitness? Mental? Commitment? These are the issues. Pettersson is more than capable of figuring out the hockey of it all otherwise (like, say, less than ideal linemates or not much time with Hughes).

When I think of an American yelling at a Swede, I'm reminded of how Torterella almost made Edler quit hockey all together. Richardson is a smart guy, and he's on point on how some guys don't respond to constant yelling and badgering.

I think Linden mentioned that in an interview a few years back. And I think Bieksa has come to the defense of Edler recently.

I'm sure Petey doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves, but there's also "over the line" stuff from Miller that is not helpful.

 

[rypper]

There's some real creative writing going on in this thread.

The team traded for Miller because they sucked and needed better players and it was a shortcut that paid off for Benning. They didn't specifically trade for him to protect Pettersson or play with him.

 

[Tinhorn1]

I keep on thinking of that PK shift right before Miller was benched and then took his extended leave. Petey's watching for the cross-crease pass. Miller's yelling at Petey to mind the guy behind him that he's already minding (and guarding a potential pass from reaching). Pettersson turns to look behind him at whatever Miller's yelling about. The pass goes through. The other team scores. I look at that and think, maybe Miller should just stfu.

On the other hand, sometimes Pettersson seems completely spaced out and you wonder where the hell his mind is at, and you could see why that would be frustrating. Two flawed people and players, most likely, who seem to bring out the worst in each other. For the record I think Pettersson would be better if given the alpha role, as evidenced by his play in Miller's absence, but that's just a hunch, and I can see why others would disagree.

Whatever the case, blame for this can likely be spread pretty widely, from both players, to the coaches, to management, and even to the PR department. Seriously, fire those last people first.

 

[logan5]

That run that Pettersson went o while JT was away may not have been a coincidence -

“I was in that dressing room with those guys. I love J.T.,” Richardson said. “But I even told him, I said ‘You’re too hard on this kid. You’re too hard on him. You’re saying exactly what I think, but he’s a kid that… when you’re on him [too much], he’s going to shut it down.’ I told him ‘Hey, you’re gonna lose this guy if you keep doing it.’ That’s what I said to him.

“J.T., he’s the man. But there is a lot of tension and something’s gonna give. I guarantee you. I’m not saying you gotta love every guy on your team [but] it helps. But something’s gonna give there.”

It sounds like JT has completely worn Pettersson down.

 

[nowhereman]

It's still difficult to speculate on exactly what's going on but there's enough bread crumbs to piece together what's happening. Petterson seems to have a mercurial personality and approach to the game that is very frustrating for his management, coaching staff and teammates. But Miller is being problematic, insofar as he's trying to deal with this in the worst possible way and can't seem to curb his confrontational approach. It seems like an oil and vinegar type thing that isn't going to solve itself. As I've said before, I don't think either player is an ideal figure to build your team around.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

It's still difficult to speculate on exactly what's going on but there's enough bread crumbs to piece together what's happening. Petterson seems to have a mercurial personality and approach to the game that is very frustrating for his management, coaching staff and teammates. But Miller is being problematic, insofar as he's trying to deal with this in the worst possible way and can't seem to curb his confrontational approach. It seems like an oil and vinegar type thing that isn't going to solve itself. As I've said before, I don't think either player is an ideal figure to build your team around.

It's a classic Vancouver trope, IMO. Gotta love it

Whoever is dealt I just hope their game picks up.