Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

SillyRabbit

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Could it be his two hot seasons were a mirage or lightning in a bottle?

Maybe Allvin has buyer’s remorse and is quickly trying to convince the rest of the league to bid for him in order to get out from under the cap commitment?

I see a range of outcomes: Eichel to Gomez
Pettersson’s best seasons were spread years apart so it leans more towards him having the skill and ability but lacking in consistency.

At his best he can create plays out of thin air, and dominate the ice.

Allvin and Rutherford almost certainly have buyers remorse but it’s still better than if they had let him walk for nothing. Trading a star player who’s locked up long term has more value than one who’s about to be a UFA.

And for me personally, I’m a lot more confident that Pettersson can return to form with a different team and change of scenery than if he stayed in Vancouver.
 

Bobby9

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I heard around the rink yesterday that it may not be just one isolated issue that [Pettersson’s] dealing with that it got to a point that he felt he had to step away here for a handful of games.

So he stepped away for personal reasons too?
 

ReHabs

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Pettersson’s best seasons were spread years apart so it leans more towards him having the skill and ability but lacking in consistency.

At his best he can create plays out of thin air, and dominate the ice.

Allvin and Rutherford almost certainly have buyers remorse but it’s still better than if they had let him walk for nothing. Trading a star player who’s locked up long term has more value than one who’s about to be a UFA.

And for me personally, I’m a lot more confident that Pettersson can return to form with a different team and change of scenery than if he stayed in Vancouver.
His two best seasons seem to be the ones that went back to back preceding the current one. What is his “return to form” look like, in your opinion?

And if you’d humour me:

1) putting aside the trade cost, where would he fit in the Habs rebuild roster (so, include Demidov etc, coming on)

2) what do you think is the fair trade cost for him?

VAN is in a strange spot with cap hits, OEL’s buyout penalty sucks and means you gotta be even more vigilant for cap savings.

I heard around the rink yesterday that it may not be just one isolated issue that [Pettersson’s] dealing with that it got to a point that he felt he had to step away here for a handful of games.

So he stepped away for personal reasons too?
This reads as a confluence of physical issues. So like a shoulder and a hip.
 
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Bobby9

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What is his “return to form” look like, in your opinion?

And if you’d humour me:

1) putting aside the trade cost, where would he fit in the Habs rebuild roster (so, include Demidov etc, coming on)

2) what do you think is the fair trade cost for him?

VAN is in a strange spot with cap hits, OEL’s buyout penalty sucks and means you gotta be even more vigilant for cap savings.
Suzuki and Reinbacher
 

racerjoe

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When calling Pettersson weak and not Miller, your response is Miller is weak for the last 2 goals...


When saying Pettersson hasn't produced in 6 games, but somehow Pettersson is still out playing him in your eyes, and purposely leaving out Miller's 6th game to make your comment look better for some reason to defend Pettersson still.


No I didn't miss anything, because your previous replies were trying to defend Pettersson still while he was struggling.


Now I will acknowledge throughout this topic you have brought up some points about Pettersson not playing great and needs to be better, but you also seemed to try some excuses for his off season training from a couple seasons ago with his wrist injury, but what about the off season the following year? You were still trying to defend him in those quotes I quoted you for some bizarre reason. It just seems you're going back and forth to defend both stances for some reason and that really makes no sense at all.

You have still missed most of it…

Also I did five games cause sites easily give you the previous five games, where you have to dig much farther to find that 6th game.
 

SillyRabbit

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His two best seasons seem to be the ones that went back to back preceding the current one. What is his “return to form” look like, in your opinion?

And if you’d humour me:

1) putting aside the trade cost, where would he fit in the Habs rebuild roster (so, include Demidov etc, coming on)

2) what do you think is the fair trade cost for him?

VAN is in a strange spot with cap hits, OEL’s buyout penalty sucks and means you gotta be even more vigilant for cap savings.


This reads as a confluence of physical issues. So like a shoulder and a hip.
His best seasons were 2020 and 2023.

2023 being a borderline top 5C in the world and really showing what he was capable of.

As for trade packages, I’d check out this thread:


Seems like Carolina fans are open to re-offering the Necas, Kotkaniemi, Morrow and a 1st package that was originally declined by Vancouver prior to Pettersson re-signing.
 

ReHabs

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Seems like Carolina fans are open to re-offering the Necas, Kotkaniemi, Morrow and a 1st package that was originally declined by Vancouver prior to Pettersson re-signing.
I was thinking along the lines of Evans + Slafkvosky but I could be completely off

Evans will be in high demand come the deadline. Playoff experience, C, PKer, red hot form, 28…

Very interesting discussion. Thanks for indulging me
 
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Tinhorn1

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It sure would be nice if you could trust what a single person says in all of this. Pettersson is so guarded and reticent he hardly says anything of any value, and sometimes he contradicts himself. Management and coaching say things or make decisions with great confidence that later turn out to be total nonsense or just infuriatingly wrong (Miller/Hughes/Demko/Pearson, etc.). It puts you in a tough spot when you're trying to form an opinion.

I will say that I do have doubts that Pettersson will ever have the body or conditioning to weather the rigours of the NHL grind. Doesn't seem like a natural athlete at all in a physical sense. Whether that's due to being a lazy sack, I don't know. I doubt it, but you never know. I don't really trust Pettersson exactly, and I don't trust Tocchet or Allvin either, like I say. And with good reason for the latter two.

On a related note, seems like this team is once again going to be a grinder's paradise, given the coaching staff's preferences and obvious biases (on defense, for example). I hate teams like that, but go team, I guess. And at the end of the day Tocchet can only play the absolute crap Allvin has provided him on D, so there's that. Maybe Allvin wasn't up for the mental challenge last summer. Hope he's got his head on straight and is training harder. As he calls out all of his star players, maybe he can match that energy on the trade front and provide them with a defenseman who can pass them the puck instead of chipping it out all day every day.
 

mriswith

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Like this: Rutherford also says "he didn’t know if the possibility of a trade ignited Pettersson’s willingness to sign a new deal."...? No, let's just ignore the POH's implication about the player... "An incredible amount of hubris" indeed.




Now it's 'believe the aligned GM-Coach-JT Miller' triumvirate over the player who said he had to work around a nagging injury in the offseason. The same management that was in danger of a Tanner Pearson grievance due to medical malpractice.

The same coach who to this day is getting called out by JPat about overplaying Demko toward his latest injury. Management put it back on the player by implying he was over-training.

And now Hughes goes down and Tocchet is again getting called out for playing him while he may have been injured.

There is zero chance management-coach are above reproach with regards to injuries. Zero. At best, it's a gray area where nothing definitive can result from a lack of information.
It's also not a serious analysis of the team when it omits any mention of the defense, which is 95% of the problem with the team right now, and coincidentally also 95% of the fault for the d lies with Allvin. It's clearly gamesmanship.

The EP and Miller drama has done a remarkable job of keeping the fire away from PA's feet after a disaster of a summer on the back end and narrowly missing an even more massive crisis in goal when no one else offered Lankinen a contract by Sept 21, without which the season would have been over in October.
 

Vector

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Red Wings fan coming in peace.

1) If there's a better thread for this, please let me know and I'll redirect the conversation there.
2) I'm genuinely not trying to kick a hornet's nest here. I understand the roller coaster fans are on, and that ideally the front office just shuts up and makes good decisions while the players stay in Vancouver and succeed.

Having said all that, if things continue to snowball and the Canucks do honestly entertain trading Pettersson, what would be some realistic pieces they would want in return?

You're not going to steal Celebrini or Bedard, but you're not going to be insulted with another team's garbage either. So rather than specific names, let's keep it to general positions and tiers - something like, a 1C/2C, plus a top 4 defenseman, plus a first round pick. That at least makes it possible for an honest attempt at trade discussion, instead of everybody talking past one another.

Again, I'm not dancing on any graves. Just curious about what teams might be a fit, both for Pettersson and for the right assets in return if this thing goes fully pear-shaped. Thanks and good luck.

It's a really hard question to answer because the closest comparable would be the Mike Richards and Jeff Carter trades. So your estimation of what the Canucks would want in return is accurate just hard to nail down. I'd imagine any player coming back would have to be both young and proven. I don't think the draft pick compensation is much of a factor; fans will clamor for it but management has clearly shown that draft picks are trade currency.
 

Hodgy

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Like this: Rutherford also says "he didn’t know if the possibility of a trade ignited Pettersson’s willingness to sign a new deal."...? No, let's just ignore the POH's implication about the player... "An incredible amount of hubris" indeed.
While one can speculate as to whether management leaked trade rumours to pressure Pettersson to sign, at least their is logic in speculating that trade rumours may pressure Pettersson to sign. There is no logic in thinking that Allvin, knowing Pettersson’s poor play is predominantly caused by injury, is going to publicly call out Pettersson and that this public call out will lead to Pettersson playing better. The public call out only makes sense if Allvin thinks Pettersson’s poor play is not predominately caused by injury.

Now it's 'believe the aligned GM-Coach-JT Miller' triumvirate over the player who said he had to work around a nagging injury in the offseason.
I don’t think you have to disregard Petey’s comments about training around the injury. Alvin can still think that Pettersson’s play was not predominately caused by injury but accept that he has or had a nagging, minor injury.

The same management that was in danger of a Tanner Pearson grievance due to medical malpractice.
I didn’t realize management were medical practitioners that could commit medical malpractice. lol. But yes, they obviously take advice from medical practitioners, and it’s possible they are getting terrible advice, and are taking that advice and ignoring, presumably, Pettersson’s own account to the contrary, and are then so confident in said advice over Pettersson’s account that they are going to blast Pettersson in the media notwithstanding that he’s the single most important asset in their organization, and an asset the signed long term to a monster contract. So it’s possible, but it seems far fetched to me. I could see them potentially favouring the medical advice over Petey’s account (although even that is a bit of a stretch) but to go out and publicly blast your most important asset is something entirely different.
The same coach who to this day is getting called out by JPat about overplaying Demko toward his latest injury. Management put it back on the player by implying he was over-training.
I think we are mostly talking about Allvin here. I just brought up Tocchet’s comments because they are largely consistent with Allvin’s comments.
There is zero chance management-coach are above reproach with regards to injuries. Zero. At best, it's a gray area where nothing definitive can result from a lack of information.
Nothing definitive can ever result from a lack of information. Clearly the Canucks haven’t always dealt with injuries correctly. But there are two things at play here. First, there is the issue as to whether they have got good or bad medical advice. And second, the issue of them blasting Petey publicly. I’m more concerned about the latter issue, and I find it far fetched to believe that they are receiving bad medical advice, and are disregarding, presumably, Petey’s own account to the contrary, and then going on to rely on said advice over Petey’s account to the contrary in publicly blasting Petey, who is their most valuable asset that they locked up long term.

But also, keep in mind the context of my response that you replied to. I was calling out the OP who suggested that anyone who can’t see that Pettersson’s bad play is due to injury is “deliberately, wilfully, and in bad faith blind”. I’m not making any wild declarations here, either way, because as you point out we have limited information. But the idea that Pettersson’s clearly a result of injury, or anything that that effect, is completely at odds with Allvin’s comments.
 

mriswith

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Hi guys trying to do some reading and research. I saw some graphic showing a harsh change between his production and fancy stats before and after a certain date in the 23-24 season. The decline started prior to his penning of the contract extension.

Does anyone know where I can read more analysis of this seemingly massive change and what are some theories to the cause of the change?

I glanced at a post speculating it was post-concussion. Anyone care to help?
There's two major deficits. He's lost his speed and his shot and visually that is the entire problem with him.

His skating dropped off a cliff in January last year when he developed a knee injury and he hasn't skated with the speed he'd had in all of his previous 5 seasons since then. The skating issue last year was conclusively the knee injury and it was not fully resolved when this season started so it's most likely still the problem now. Our mgmt group clearly didn't learn anything from how they botched handling Mikheyev.

He never really had his shot last season even when he was scoring at 110+ point pace before his skating dropped off a cliff and no one knows why the shot is gone, explanations on our board range from hip and knee injuries to not enough likes on instagram and a seething hatred of Vancouver. No one has a clue, there hasn't been a scrap of info other than guesses and wild speculation from anyone on why this part of his game is gone.

RE: Gomez, even when EP is "bad" he's still a very strong 2 way player that drives a positive goal differential and is an analytics darling, even when slumping and stuck with absolute garbage on both wings and d. Not the 40 goal 100+ point selke calibre centre that he is when he can actually skate and shoot, but the dropoff is mostly scoring. Miller is the one with the Gomez potential, when he's bad, he's bad and a distraction.

Red Wings fan coming in peace.

1) If there's a better thread for this, please let me know and I'll redirect the conversation there.
2) I'm genuinely not trying to kick a hornet's nest here. I understand the roller coaster fans are on, and that ideally the front office just shuts up and makes good decisions while the players stay in Vancouver and succeed.

Having said all that, if things continue to snowball and the Canucks do honestly entertain trading Pettersson, what would be some realistic pieces they would want in return?

You're not going to steal Celebrini or Bedard, but you're not going to be insulted with another team's garbage either. So rather than specific names, let's keep it to general positions and tiers - something like, a 1C/2C, plus a top 4 defenseman, plus a first round pick. That at least makes it possible for an honest attempt at trade discussion, instead of everybody talking past one another.

Again, I'm not dancing on any graves. Just curious about what teams might be a fit, both for Pettersson and for the right assets in return if this thing goes fully pear-shaped. Thanks and good luck.
Our own board won't agree on the answer to this. There's a huge range of opinions on EP and the rare times that it's actually happened every team that's traded an elite young 1C for a package pretty handily lost the trade, some of which make the all time lists of bad trades so the more pessimistic of opinions from our perspective is probably closer to reality if it happens.

Ideally a single, immensely valuable piece in return i.e. a true blue proven all situations #1d in a similar age range or a younger 1C that hasn't shown anything as good yet as EP at his best, but clearly has elite potential.

Most realistic is a top line roster piece, a teams best prospect and 1st, and historically we'll lose this trade by a mile,
 
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Bobby9

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I will say that I do have doubts that Pettersson will ever have the body or conditioning to weather the rigours of the NHL grind. Doesn't seem like a natural athlete at all in a physical sense. Whether that's due to being a lazy sack, I don't know. I doubt it, but you never know.
You are 100% correct. Many of us have been concerned about his build for years.

Him and Drai go in to a corner in the playoffs you know whos coming out with the puck and whos laying on their face
 
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BigFatCat999

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Yes, I’m one of the mini vultures from the fan base who would gladly take Elias off your hands, but I have to ask, please explain it to me like I am 10 years old, what the Sam hell happened?
 
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PuckMunchkin

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It's also not a serious analysis of the team when it omits any mention of the defense, which is 95% of the problem with the team right now, and coincidentally also 95% of the fault for the d lies with Allvin. It's clearly gamesmanship.

The EP and Miller drama has done a remarkable job of keeping the fire away from PA's feet after a disaster of a summer on the back end and narrowly missing an even more massive crisis in goal when no one else offered Lankinen a contract by Sept 21, without which the season would have been over in October.
They did and for more money but Lankinen chose us.

Just to keep this story straight.
 

M2Beezy

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Yes, I’m one of the mini vultures from the fan base who would gladly take Elias off your hands, but I have to ask, please explain it to me like I am 10 years old, what the Sam hell happened?
My neighbours cousins former dog walker who use to go to the same deli as one of the Zamboni maintenance guys at Rogers Arena said that what he heard is that Pettersson was upset Hughes was named captain and his heart has been elsewhere since. Again nothing is for sure but the source does seem reliable to me .......
 

Canuckle1970

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My neighbours cousins former dog walker who use to go to the same deli as one of the Zamboni maintenance guys at Rogers Arena said that what he heard is that Pettersson was upset Hughes was named captain and his heart has been elsewhere since. Again nothing is for sure but the source does seem reliable to me .......
Careful, M2B, some people might actually believe this.

Apparently, EP was offered the captaincy, but declined because of all the media responsibility that goes with being the "C". I did not hear if it was offered to Miller. If It had been, I'm pretty sure he would have taken the job.

They found the right guy in Hughes.
 

M2Beezy

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Careful, M2B, some people might actually believe this.

Apparently, EP was offered the captaincy, but declined because of all the media responsibility that goes with being the "C". I did not hear if it was offered to Miller. If It had been, I'm pretty sure he would have taken the job.

They found the right guy in Hughes.
Interesting you say that, my cousins neighbours uncle used to play cards with a guy who is a security guard outside Rogers Arena, and he confirmed that Pettersson was never offered the captaincy by Benning and Weisbrod but they kept delaying and delaying and ran out of time before Pettersson told them to pound sand so they offered it to Hughes. This person may or may not have been @AlainVigneaultsGum but the truth will come out eventually....
 
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Canuckle1970

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Interesting you say that, my cousins neighbours uncle used to play cards with a guy who is a security guard outside Rogers Arena, and he confirmed that Pettersson was never offered the captaincy by Benning and Weisbrod but they kept delaying and delaying and ran out of time before Pettersson told them to pound sand so they offered it to Hughes. This person may or may not have been @AlainVigneaultsGum but the truth will come out eventually....
:cool:
 
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poler

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I was reading in the other canucks forums that compared to other first line centers, Petterson gets the least amount of offensive zone faceoffs.

When miller was out for extended period of time he was 15 points in 10 games getting more offensive opportunities and more time playing with Hughes. I feel like Tocchet doesn’t like skilled cerebral players and he likes north south with heavy forechecking.

When miller came back he went back to his lower end offensive zone starts barely any time with Hughes. If anyone says ohh he’s getting paid 11.6 he should be producing no matter what and driving his own line. All first line players always very skilled line mates with a lot offensive opportunities with there top d man. When miller was out Petterson was performing to his contract with his points he got and was defensively responsible. Sure his skating speed isn’t the same as before.

Right before his injuring he got two nice top corner goals and I still believe in him. I just wish our coach will give him first line opportunity and not give it to miller all year.
 

mriswith

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I was reading in the other canucks forums that compared to other first line centers, Petterson gets the least amount of offensive zone faceoffs.

When miller was out for extended period of time he was 15 points in 10 games getting more offensive opportunities and more time playing with Hughes. I feel like Tocchet doesn’t like skilled cerebral players and he likes north south with heavy forechecking.

When miller came back he went back to his lower end offensive zone starts barely any time with Hughes. If anyone says ohh he’s getting paid 11.6 he should be producing no matter what and driving his own line. All first line players always very skilled line mates with a lot offensive opportunities with there top d man. When miller was out Petterson was performing to his contract with his points he got and was defensively responsible. Sure his skating speed isn’t the same as before.

Right before his injuring he got two nice top corner goals and I still believe in him. I just wish our coach will give him first line opportunity and not give it to miller all year.
Miller has always gotten the plum treatment - best wingers and majority of Hughes shifts.

EP's slump last season coincided with playing with two dumpsters on each wing and not getting the majority Hughes shifts.

No other player in the league has superstar expectations and gets that kind of situation on the ice. Not a single player in the league.

There is something wrong with him, he doesn't look like his old self, but you are accurate with what you're saying and it is perpetually brushed off and overlooked. If they swapped linemates and EP got the winger and Hughes treatment while Miller got stuck with two 4th line wingers and the rest of our d, perception of these two players would radically shift - even with EP playing as he currently is.
 

kanucks25

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Careful, M2B, some people might actually believe this.

Apparently, EP was offered the captaincy, but declined because of all the media responsibility that goes with being the "C". I did not hear if it was offered to Miller. If It had been, I'm pretty sure he would have taken the job.

They found the right guy in Hughes.
I'd be shocked if they ever considered Petey over Hughes in any serious manner.
 

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