Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

racerjoe

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Jun 3, 2012
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I think the reasons why nobody is asking these questions are 1) we don't have the medical information, and no matter how much we ask the team will never disclose it (and they shouldn't disclose it to the public under any circumstances anyways), and 2) I think most people don't want to know the answer, IF this is something permanent. If it does get reveal somehow that this is Petey's new level going forward, it would essentially cripple the franchise. It has been 10 months and counting (including 3 months off in the summer), and almost a full season's worth of games already, since EP was consistently an elite player in this league, I think there is a level of fear buried within our subconscious that this might be the player he is going forward, and we aren't ready to accept it?

Well at least #2 is true for me, I don't know if it applies to anybody else. I so badly want him to bounce back, and even though he is getting better and there are signs of it, I'm not seeing the elite plays at a consistent level to believe he is on the verge of being "back" nor am I 100% convince it will happen eventually.

I think it has taken so long, because he absolutely should have taken time off during last season. I really do blame the medical staff for this. He clearly wasn’t playing well with the injury. It clearly cut down off season training time and he had to change the way he trained and played.

I think he can feel fine and not be 100%, these aren’t linked things in these type of situations
 

Bobby9

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Feb 10, 2019
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I know I'm not going to change your mind, but he is/was definitely injured. Whether he is STILL injured is up for debate, but based on his skating I would say yes, at least to start the season.
Why would the team let the "franchise" player play injured?

I think it has taken so long, because he absolutely should have taken time off during last season. I really do blame the medical staff for this. He clearly wasn’t playing well with the injury. It clearly cut down off season training time and he had to change the way he trained and played.

I think he can feel fine and not be 100%, these aren’t linked things in these type of situations
All of this is something you have made up.
 

Vector

Moderator
Feb 2, 2007
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Miller and Pettersson’s Dynamic
  • Not a media fabrication
  • Has gone back as far as to when Travis Green was coaching
  • Bruce Boudreau has said in radio issues that there are issues between the two
  • Management team, owner, agents, and players all know about it
  • Online trolls that hate Miller are feeding into this
  • Every guy in the dressing room needs to be pulling in the same direction
  • Boudreau thought the relationship between Miller & Pettersson was rectified but it’s apparently not
  • Dhaliwal does not understand why both signed long-term deals if they dislike each other
  • Not every gets along in a dressing room
  • Have to do your job, though; need to play for the crest on the front of the jersey
  • Need to play for everyone on your team whether you like them or not
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
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This is the key to me thinking it's not a big deal - they both re-signed long term knowing the other would be here.

My first thought as well, but then you have Miller leaving the team, and Tocchet splitting them up on the PP...

It could be a situation where one player isn't willing to concede the environment to the other.
 
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sandwichbird2023

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Aug 4, 2004
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This is the key to me thinking it's not a big deal - they both re-signed long term knowing the other would be here.
Re-signing here was in their best interest though, at least financially speaking. There is no guarantee that Miller would've got a better contract in UFA, if the lowball trade offers leading up to it was any indication, he wasn't that highly valued by other GMs at the time. As for Petey, sure it sucks to work with a guy you don't like, but then where are you going to lock in $96m, especially if you know your knee is bothering you and could affect your leverage in future negotiations.

Just because they both extended here, doesn't mean that they don't still have major issues with each other.

Why would the team let the "franchise" player play injured?
Because, based on the past, letting injured players play seems to be the standard of this medical team? Also misdiagnosing ailment is a recurring theme here as well, so maybe they know he is hurt but don't think he is injured? I don't know, but I don't trust this medical team very much.
 

Tinhorn1

Registered User
Aug 7, 2007
1,184
513


Miller and Pettersson’s Dynamic
  • Not a media fabrication
  • Has gone back as far as to when Travis Green was coaching
  • Bruce Boudreau has said in radio issues that there are issues between the two
  • Management team, owner, agents, and players all know about it
  • Online trolls that hate Miller are feeding into this
  • Every guy in the dressing room needs to be pulling in the same direction
  • Boudreau thought the relationship between Miller & Pettersson was rectified but it’s apparently not
  • Dhaliwal does not understand why both signed long-term deals if they dislike each other
  • Not every gets along in a dressing room
  • Have to do your job, though; need to play for the crest on the front of the jersey
  • Need to play for everyone on your team whether you like them or not

Man, if this stuff is true, then why the hell would Tocchet recruit Miller to get Pettersson going a whole back? I already thought that whole thing was gross/weird (and pretty irregular, according to Bieksa?), but now I'm just mystified.
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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Man, if this stuff is true, then why the hell would Tocchet recruit Miller to get Pettersson going a whole back? I already thought that whole thing was gross/weird (and pretty irregular, according to Bieksa?), but now I'm just mystified.


He recruited Miller to get Pettersson going, specifically, or just allowed the leaders in the room to lead?
 
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PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
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Man, if this stuff is true, then why the hell would Tocchet recruit Miller to get Pettersson going a whole back? I already thought that whole thing was gross/weird (and pretty irregular, according to Bieksa?), but now I'm just mystified.
I dont think Tocchet likes Pettersson either.

I mean the bullshit move he did in the season ending presser when EP says his knee is bothering him?
 

Wisp

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Nov 14, 2010
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Tocchet trusts Pettersson to shelter Derharnais among other weaker defense pairs, so I think not liking him might be overblown. Meanwhile he dare not play those pairs with Miller lol. He definitely overloves and overplays Miller though.

As for the alleged drama, JT always has and will always be volatile. Trading Pettersson isn't going to change that. "JT needed a reset," wasn't too long ago and I don't have too much faith that won't escalate (because JT will always be volatile). Plan accordingly.
 

Hodgy

Registered User
Feb 23, 2012
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This argument about ancient history of EP only exists because literally no one remembers what was happening several years ago. It's 100% narrative.

You are right that our recollection of events, or memories, often differ from the actual events. That's why it is settled evidence law to prefer past contemporaneous evidence on an event or subject over the present recollection of a person of that event. or subject.

Luckily for us, we have a ton of contemporaneous eye witness evidence on this subject so we don't have to go based on memories (like your memory, for example). In fact, in this thread (Player Discussion - Had Pettersson Regressed?) and on December 11, 2021 I posted the following:

"Pettersson’s skating is the real issue. He can’t create and time and space. Hopefully he gets back on track."

So, I certainly haven't created this narrative as you are suggesting. This is a view I have always held. And not just myself. The following are ten other eye witness accounts from posters questioning his skating from the time of his last slump:

-He's not skating. There was a play in one of the Ducks Games where he was forechecking and Getzlaf had the puck. Instead of skating and catching that old f*** he instead started reaching with his stick and Getzlaf blew by him

-Effort on that EN goal says it all. Just giving zero f***s out there.

-He's weak on his skates and doesn't seem as fast.

-His speed/hustle that was so evident in year 1 is gone

-The passing, the skating, the turnovers it's just all bad.

-He just doesn't move his feet at all. He just glides around.

-Physically speaking, the issue seems to be that a gentle breeze knocks him over, and he seems to have substituted skating with coasting around.

-Kid can't even skate or make 10 foot passes.

-he's not a fast skater, he's not a strong skater

-EP has completely checked out on a physical level. He is just going through the motions, he is the epitome of being easy to play against. Maybe someone should point that out to him?

-If EP can't be bothered to actually move his legs when he's on the ice, I have no problem with seeing what the trade market is like, although it's hard to imagine getting good value for a player who falls to the ice once per shift.

And I could find a ton more of these as I only searched one thread and didn't bother looking in each GTD, or post GTD.

So the idea that "Pettersson skated poorly in his last slump" is 100% narrative is entirely wrong and demonstrably false base on the above.

It was one of many things I said… to show that there is a lot of ways a wrist injury could have effected his skating,
I don't think you have reasonably shown that his wrist injury could have significantly affected his skating. And I don't really get the Hronek comparison other than to suggest that he could have had a different lower body injury at the time....but like I said, any play at any time could have an injury, and I think that's beyond debate.

and or been more of an injury than you just claiming it’s a minor injury with no evidence.

This is not a good way to think.

Again, I think you both are getting lost in how major or minor the wrist injury was. And again, if the known injury at the time was a lower body injury then I would agree with both of you that the severity of the injury was crucial, but we aren't talking a lower body injury. We are talking a wrist injury that Pettersson missed no games or training for, as far as we know, making it unreasonable or farfetched to suggest, in my view, that it was a significant or material cause in his poor skating.
 

racerjoe

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
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Vancouver
And you have shown less, except a bunch of posts from random posters… I mean we both know there are many posters here I would never trust what they say, and wouldn’t bother replying, not to mention accounts I don’t respond to because they are trolls. They also say completely random things about his skating and balance. It’s not like they all say speed, they say effort, falling down, and so on. While I know my memory has been wrong, judging from those quotes, it’s not the same.

His current problem is a lack of power and speed, we see this from the skating speed numbers and shot numbers.

I think his injuries has probably hindered his training, how not sure, but both in different ways.

Last season you were adamant he wasn’t hurt… well he was.
 

Tinhorn1

Registered User
Aug 7, 2007
1,184
513
He recruited Miller to get Pettersson going, specifically, or just allowed the leaders in the room to lead?
Yeah, good point. Friedman name-checked Miller and Hughes in his radio spot, I believe, so they stuck in my mind. It could be media getting it wrong, though. Hope so!
 

bandwagonesque

Practically a late 1st
Mar 5, 2014
7,649
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Pettersson always positions himself well and is good for about 3-4 plays a game that are efficient, clever but in isolation fairly trivial. And that's it, he's completely invisible otherwise. He's basically a pretty good third defenceman.
 

Orr4Norris

Registered User
Mar 2, 2018
877
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Bruce always seemed more a Petey guy.

Tocchet always a JT guy.

Maybe they struggle to coexist when things are not all sunshine and roses?

Could explain why this core has always been Jekyll and Hyde. They are tiring though. Tough to actually like this group (other than Hughes and Demko)
 

bandwagonesque

Practically a late 1st
Mar 5, 2014
7,649
6,083


Miller and Pettersson’s Dynamic
  • Not a media fabrication
  • Has gone back as far as to when Travis Green was coaching
  • Bruce Boudreau has said in radio issues that there are issues between the two
  • Management team, owner, agents, and players all know about it
  • Online trolls that hate Miller are feeding into this
  • Every guy in the dressing room needs to be pulling in the same direction
  • Boudreau thought the relationship between Miller & Pettersson was rectified but it’s apparently not
  • Dhaliwal does not understand why both signed long-term deals if they dislike each other
  • Not every gets along in a dressing room
  • Have to do your job, though; need to play for the crest on the front of the jersey
  • Need to play for everyone on your team whether you like them or not

He spends the first 45 seconds of the clip literally shouting at fans to stop claiming it's a media fabrication, and actually sounds angry, but ... how does he think it's gotten to the point that fans assume this?
 

theguardianII

Registered User
Jan 30, 2020
3,785
1,893


Miller and Pettersson’s Dynamic
  • Not a media fabrication
  • Has gone back as far as to when Travis Green was coaching
  • Bruce Boudreau has said in radio issues that there are issues between the two
  • Management team, owner, agents, and players all know about it
  • Online trolls that hate Miller are feeding into this
  • Every guy in the dressing room needs to be pulling in the same direction
  • Boudreau thought the relationship between Miller & Pettersson was rectified but it’s apparently not
  • Dhaliwal does not understand why both signed long-term deals if they dislike each other
  • Not every gets along in a dressing room
  • Have to do your job, though; need to play for the crest on the front of the jersey
  • Need to play for everyone on your team whether you like them or not

If you and your wife don't get along it often can results in a divorce over 55% of the time.
These guys spend days together.
At home the social media puts a magnifying glass on their effectiveness and performance.

Long term deals signed for the money and POSSIBLE promises of future trades.
For Pettersson maybe there was too much pressure applied, no "team" guy wants to blamed for a team collapse. The team was rolling along quite well. After Tocchet changed the system to a more defensive structure. I remember posting I thought it was in preparation of the playoffs.

Most of this and more is well known behind the scenes, not everything used to be reported, Kassian's issues and others.
 

Hodgy

Registered User
Feb 23, 2012
4,954
5,211
And you have shown less, except a bunch of posts from random posters… I mean we both know there are many posters here I would never trust what they say, and wouldn’t bother replying, not to mention accounts I don’t respond to because they are trolls. They also say completely random things about his skating and balance. It’s not like they all say speed, they say effort, falling down, and so on. While I know my memory has been wrong, judging from those quotes, it’s not the same.

Wait, so you are going to prefer non-contemporaneous bias recollections from eleven different contemporaneous non-bias eye witness accounts? How many more contemporaneous eye witness accounts do you need? If you had twenty would that be enough? Because undoubtedly I could find them by searching the GTDs.

You have to realize that not accepting the current evidence is bizarre especially when no one else is submitting any other contemporaneous evidence to the contrary.


Last season you were adamant he wasn’t hurt… well he was.
Adamant? I believe I said that on a balance of probabilities I didn't think he had an injury that was causing his poor play. I've made many posts on the subject so may not have always been consistent, but this has been a consistent message.
 

racerjoe

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
12,500
6,345
Vancouver
Wait, so you are going to prefer non-contemporaneous bias recollections from eleven different contemporaneous non-bias eye witness accounts? How many more contemporaneous eye witness accounts do you need? If you had twenty would that be enough? Because undoubtedly I could find them by searching the GTDs.

You have to realize that not accepting the current evidence is bizarre especially when no one else is submitting any other contemporaneous evidence to the contrary.



Adamant? I believe I said that on a balance of probabilities I didn't think he had an injury that was causing his poor play. I've made many posts on the subject so may not have always been consistent, but this has been a consistent message.

Adamant as I you repeated and got in long debates like this one saying he wasn’t.

On balance I am going to trust myself over random posts… yes… that shouldn’t be controversial. Especially when it is on something like it is, and the eye witnesses are not saying he is slow, except for one or two…
 

Quinton Byfield

Registered User
Jul 25, 2021
396
954
Tocchet trusts Pettersson to shelter Derharnais among other weaker defense pairs, so I think not liking him might be overblown. Meanwhile he dare not play those pairs with Miller lol. He definitely overloves and overplays Miller though.

As for the alleged drama, JT always has and will always be volatile. Trading Pettersson isn't going to change that. "JT needed a reset," wasn't too long ago and I don't have too much faith that won't escalate (because JT will always be volatile). Plan accordingly.
Ok, plan accordingly means you trade Miller in your eyes? To appease Pete?

And what then, if we're judging by what we've seen, if EP continues to be oft injured, poor skater with a noticeably less threatening shot? When was the last time we've seen him completely take over the game and call game? Carry the team on his shoulders, and not just pick up a few points and look good on some post-game analytic graph?

What leadership qualities has he shown to be regarded in such a way that he gets to force a decision between one over another? Do you really see a 6'2 176lb poor skater with severe weight/height/strength imbalances to be the 1c, going up against the likes of MacKinnon or McDavids' of the world?

Stop with this inflammatory shit. People like you only feed the modern predatory nature of sports journalism. You lose any trade with Pete or Miller. The only way is through. You don't have to love everyone you work with. The common ground is that they both want to contribute to a winning team. That should be enough.

Quinn challenges himself to be better all the time, came back last off-season with a shot. To be able to skate even more minutes. Brock got challenged, he went out and scored 40. Miller became a matchup center last year (but yes, he's been poor this year).

The nature of the sport is to become great. I don't understand why people feel the need to coddle a grown ass 26 year old that is the 5th highest paid player in the league. It's time to accept the criticism and grow. We, Miller included, want the guy that was SHL Playoffs MVP, painted in f***ing gold. Not the wallflower today.
 

Wisp

Registered User
Nov 14, 2010
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Ok, plan accordingly means you trade Miller in your eyes? To appease Pete?
Let me stop you there. That's not what I said or even close to implying.

i'm saying inevitably you're going to be trading Miller to appease Miller regardless of what happens to Petey.

"Miller needs a reset" happened, that could quickly become "Miller needs a change of scenery." We've seen that play out with emotional American stars playing in Canada before.

So... plan accordingly.
 
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Bobby9

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IMG_2213.jpeg
 

Wayward Son

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May 3, 2013
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Let me stop you there. That's not what I said or even close to implying.

i'm saying inevitably you're going to be trading Miller to appease Miller regardless of what happens to Petey.

"Miller needs a reset" happened, that could quickly become "Miller needs a change of scenery." We've seen that play out with emotional American stars playing in Canada before.

So... plan accordingly.
Not to mention if Miller was moved and Petey continued to struggle, we'd be right back to a media shitstorm except this time it would be directed only at Petey. I don't envy Allvin right now.
 

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