Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[MS]

Wait he had an injury and his performance suffered? Imagine that.

What part of 'pre-injury' there was difficult for you to comprehend?

Or are you fabricating an injury that didn't happen?

I see you're going back to the personal attacks again. I guess you can't handle the criticism yourself so you're going to make the mods delete posts again. Pathetic.

Accusing people of fabricating something is the lowest of the low. It's calling someone a liar. I've posted here a long f***ing time and you should damn well know that I don't just randomly invent 'there was a media report of Pettersson refusing to play with certain players' in the media 5 years ago. YOU are the one who started up with personal attacks.

Saying Pettersson's body language sucks is also not a fabrication. Even most of his supporters agree with this.

The thing is, even you have to realize you're full of it, right? Like you went back and looked at the Edge data, would have seen that his 2021/2022 skating speed data was the same as the next season, and STILL kept going on about how his skating was slow that season. It's just silly at this point.

What on earth are you talking about?

His top skating speed in 21-22 was 56th percentile and he only hit that in a game very late in the season after his overall play had recovered. The next year it was 94th percentile, over 1 MPH faster. His top speed was very clearly down significantly relative to 22-23, and very similar to this season.

The edge stats are basically useless unless we have a full game-by-game breakdown of the 21-22 season to see exactly how it unfolded for him. We don't.

 

[Ernie]

What part of 'pre-injury' there was difficult for you to comprehend?

Or are you fabricating an injury that didn't happen?

You just said he had a wrist injury.

Accusing people of fabricating something is the lowest of the low. It's calling someone a liar. I've posted here a long f***ing time and you should damn well know that I don't just randomly invent 'there was a media report of Pettersson refusing to play with certain players' in the media 5 years ago. YOU are the one who started up with personal attacks.

Saying Pettersson's body language sucks is also not a fabrication. Even most of his supporters agree with this.

You know what's worse than accusing someone of fabricating something?

It's fabricating things. You lied about his speed data in 2021/2022, you lied about his meeting with Aquilini, you've made countless misrepresentations.

Of course you don't like it. Because now that it's pointed out, you know people are going to be watching your posts carefully moving forward, and if you keep doing it your reputation here crumbles.

What on earth are you talking about?

His top skating speed in 21-22 was 56th percentile and he only hit that in a game very late in the season after his overall play had recovered. The next year it was 94th percentile, over 1 MPH faster. His top speed was very clearly down significantly relative to 22-23, and very similar to this season.

The edge stats are basically useless unless we have a full game-by-game breakdown of the 21-22 season to see exactly how it unfolded for him. We don't.

You'll take the edge stats you like to fit your narrative. I know you understand the game enough to know better. Top speed is a video game stat that is useless outside of an all star speed contest.

His speed bursts, ie the pace he was bringing night in and night out was the same between seasons. It's way down this season. Those are the facts, and you knew them as soon as you looked it up but came back here and had the gall to say otherwise.

 

[MS]

You just said he had a wrist injury.

'Pre' means before, genius. He was injured on March 1, 2020. His first 15-20 games of that season were horrible. Not moving his feet. Standing around over-relying on low-percentage one-timers. Bad body language (again). He started to perk up after about game 20 and then promptly got hurt.

You know what's worse than accusing someone of fabricating something?

It's fabricating things. You lied about his speed data in 2021/2022, you lied about his meeting with Aquilini, you've made countless misrepresentations.

Of course you don't like it. Because now that it's pointed out, you know people are going to be watching your posts carefully moving forward, and if you keep doing it your reputation here crumbles.



You'll take the edge stats you like to fit your narrative. I know you understand the game enough to know better. Top speed is a video game stat that is useless outside of an all star speed contest.

His speed bursts, ie the pace he was bringing night in and night out was the same between seasons. It's way down this season. Those are the facts, and you knew them as soon as you looked it up but came back here and had the gall to say otherwise.

How did I lie about his speed data in 21-22? Please point it out.

You are both falsely accusing people of lying in addition to lying about things yourself. 'Garland's production cratering'.

Seriously, go f*** yourself.

You aren't owed this, but his bursts were down in 21-22 from 22-23 (another 'fabrication' from you). And if he had 50+80 to get to his season total (which is totally plausible) then his 21-22 numbers would be roughly the same as 22-23 during his hot streak and the same as 24-25 during his current slump. We don't have those numbers. We don't know. But you're using them to fabricate evidence of an injury.

 

[Ernie]

'Pre' means before, genius. He was injured on March 1, 2020. His first 15-20 games of that season were horrible. Not moving his feet. Standing around over-relying on low-percentage one-timers. Bad body language (again). He started to perk up after about game 20 and then promptly got hurt.

LOL you should start a body language blog. It's crazy how good you are, even watching on TV!

So now you're going to complain that he was slightly less than a point per game over 20 games? Just desperate. Also, you have zero credibility when it comes to saying a player isn't moving his feet.

How did I lie about his speed data in 21-22? Please point it out.

You are both falsely accusing people of lying in addition to lying about things yourself. 'Garland's production cratering'.

Seriously, go f*** yourself.

You aren't owed this, but his bursts were down in 21-22 from 22-23. And if he had 50+80 to get to his season total (which is totally plausible) then his 21-22 numbers would be roughly the same as 22-23 during his hot streak and the same as 24-25 during his current slump. We don't have those numbers. We don't know. But you're using them to fabricate evidence of an injury.

They were down on the thinnest of margins. Seriously. As for the rest of that....

I mean seriously, you just making the argument that his skating fell off right around the time he said he was injured.

You said that the Edge data proved that his skating was down that season. If proved the oppposite. I guess we live in an era where complete lies don't count anymore, but still.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Interesting read right now...

A few comments:

- @MS, from what I've read, you have initiated the personal attack with the "baby" comment. People questioning the validity of information is standard fare here. (It should be questioned)

- And MS, you are absolutely, unequivocally, not above fabrication or narrative yourself. An example of this is at once saying Pettersson must see the team win before signing, but at the same time referring to him as an ass for his contract hold out pre-deadline. The narrative of the former position contradicts the expectation of the latter position.

- That said, we are all trying to figure out why Pettersson isn't dominating. Visually, it seems like a his acceleration isn't there. The likely probability is a lingering injury, but we just don't know.

- I do believe that people who are predisposed to liking a pure skill player like Pettersson (like myself), give him further leeway to rebound, as opposed to posters who prefer bigger, more robust players would do. We are seeing some of that disparity play out here.

- The Pettersson/Miller rift innuendo only adds to the fervor. Now we have the coach saying 3-4 players 'don't care' and the room is left to lead itself. It's a mess right now, and the defense corps is bad, so how does Pettersson come out of it?

I'm one to hold the player accountable, first and foremost. This is mostly on Pettersson, imo, but I think Tocchet/Miller are the wrong personality types to help get him out of it. When something goes wrong, they are the types to push harder in the same direction -- This doesn't work with more passive people. They just recoil further. (Purely anecdotal, I know)

If the team did everything I thought possible to support Pettersson toward a baseline performance, then I I'd say it's a lost cause... Move him out. But I don't think the team has emptied the tank in this regard. There are sub-moves to be made first. Different carrots to dangle (playing with Hughes). Until that happens, it's players and environment instead of just the player.

 

[iceburg]

You haven’t been reading the thread if this is what you are taking out of it.

Dismissal received..

 

[MS]

LOL you should start a body language blog. It's crazy how good you are, even watching on TV!

So now you're going to complain that he was slightly less than a point per game over 20 games? Just desperate. Also, you have zero credibility when it comes to saying a player isn't moving his feet.


They were down on the thinnest of margins. Seriously. As for the rest of that....

View attachment 946424

I mean seriously, you just making the argument that his skating fell off right around the time he said he was injured.

You said that the Edge data proved that his skating was down that season. If proved the oppposite. I guess we live in an era where complete lies don't count anymore, but still.

What in the actual f***.

His skating top speed (the most verifiable thing we have given the presentation of the stats) was way down. The speed bursts were down from 22-23 in, as I explained, a ratio we don't know.

Everything I said was true.

But then you post an IASIP meme and pretend that it's just totally OK you called me a liar?

Just to be clear :

14 points in 14 games = 'Garland's production is cratering' : not a liar.
Saying Garland has 3 points in his last 8 games when he has 7 in 8 : not a liar.
Saying Pettersson's speed bursts are the same across 21-22 and 22-23 when they went from 139->155 : not a liar.

Saying Pettersson's edge data was down in 21-22 when all stats were demonstrably, factually lower than 22-23 : liar?

Awesome.

I don't know what your issue is with me. It's f***ing weird, man.

 

[Ernie]

I welcome all readers here to go look at the data for yourself and make your own conclusions. Unfortunately, some people can't be trusted to make accurate representations.

 

[MS]

Interesting read right now...

A few comments:

- @MS, from what I've read, you have initiated the personal attack with the "baby" comment. People questioning the validity of information is standard fare here. (It should be questioned)

Saying someone fabricated something is calling them a liar and is a personal attack.

If he asked for a source, I didn't have one. That's fair. It's fair to take the comment with a grain of salt. It's fair to suggest that maybe I've mis-remembered part of it. It is not cool to just call someone a liar.

- And MS, you are absolutely, unequivocally, not above fabrication or narrative yourself. An example of this is at once saying Pettersson must see the team win before signing, but at the same time referring to him as an ass for his contract hold out pre-deadline. The narrative of the former position contradicts the expectation of the latter position.

No, it doesn't.

He clearly wasn't signing here unless the team improved. He was laying the groundwork for a trade in the summer of 2023. I didn't like his attitude, but that that didn't mean that we didn't have to 'play ball' with him, essentially.

- That said, we are all trying to figure out why Pettersson isn't dominating. Visually, it seems like a his acceleration isn't there. The likely probability is a lingering injury, but we just don't know.

Again, the problem with this is that we've seen the same thing from him before in multiple different seasons.

If a poor stretch happened to Quinn Hughes next year after years of consistently outstanding play, he'd get a lot of rope. But Pettersson is the boy who cried wolf at this stage. 2021 and 2024 looked basically identical from him.

 

[ProviesGhost]

Look how heated it gets here, imagine the locker room LMAO

 

[MS]

I welcome all readers here to go look at the data for yourself and make your own conclusions. Unfortunately, some people can't be trusted to make accurate representations.

Again, please tell me how I'm mis-representing the data.

His top speed and bursts are way down in 2024-25. Nobody is arguing that.

His top speed was also way down in 2021-22 when he was playing poorly last (and had no injury excuse).

His bursts are a bit down in 21-22 from 22-23, but we don't know what the data means because maybe he split the halves and maybe he went 50-80 or whatever. If he went 50-80, then that totally lines up with both the 22-23 numbers and the 24-25 numbers and indicates that the skating numbers just drop when he's playing badly, regardless of injury, But, again : we don't know.

The end result is that the much-vaunted Edge stats tell us nothing about what's wrong with him other than that he's playing badly right now.

Edit : and predictably when challenged with evidence, we get the laughing-emoji-on-every-post thing, the refuge of people with nothing intelligent to say nor the intelligence to say it.

 

[Kryten]

Look how heated it gets here, imagine the locker room LMAO

This place was a lot more fun when I couldnt do math

 

[Bleach Clean]

Saying someone fabricated something is calling them a liar and is a personal attack.

If he asked for a source, I didn't have one. That's fair. It's fair to take the comment with a grain of salt. It's fair to suggest that maybe I've mis-remembered part of it. It is not cool to just call someone a liar.

No, it doesn't.

He clearly wasn't signing here unless the team improved. He was laying the groundwork for a trade in the summer of 2023. I didn't like his attitude, but that that didn't mean that we didn't have to 'play ball' with him, essentially.

That is pure narrative.

He was 'laying the groundwork for a trade in 2023' and then he decides re-sign for the max 8 years...? That is the mother of all flip-flops. Acting "like an ass" the whole way through, somehow, and not just carefully assessing the team for its ability to win.

Besides, there's no way Pettersson can reasonably predict the winning ability of the Canucks in back half of his deal, so that's just another indictment on that being the crux of his decision.

As to the rest: You've been around long enough to know that asking for a source and questioning the validity of information run alongside each other here. It is not a personal attack.

If a poor stretch happened to Quinn Hughes next year after years of consistently outstanding play, he'd get a lot of rope. But Pettersson is the boy who cried wolf at this stage. 2021 and 2024 looked basically identical from him.

And yet Pettersson's 102 point season gives him no grace?

Hughes is a Hart-level player. The wrong barometer.

I don't like where Pettersson's game is at either, but I remind you: When I made the comment that it would be an unlikely bet to see Pettersson reach 100+ points at the end of 2021, you scoffed at this saying the data was there to support such a notion. There's a stronger case now as it would be a return to form, rather than something he's never achieved. Tread lightly...

This is a 'ceiling' player. He's the type to change perceptions dramatically (See Hughes).

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

He’s said himself he’s fine.

You liked the highschool essay above on emotional disposition and psychology where zero facts are used.

You like the player, it’s fine. I also like the player, but am willing to call him out for his poor play. That upsets few very vocal posters, particularly one Benning apologist. That’s the way the thread will continue to go until he plays like he’s capable of or traded, it is what it is.

I never claimed I wrote a peer-reviewed paper, but calling what I wrote as a practicing clinical counsellor with a master's degree in counselling psychology a 'high school' essay on emotional disposition and psychology seems a little rich, no?

 

[Peen]

Look how heated it gets here, imagine the locker room LMAO

As soon as people start typing in these disagreements unlike how I know a normal dude communicates in person, I cringe

It’s so stupid man people like to provoke and then play victim and then it’s a cycle

 

[JT Milker]

I never claimed I wrote a peer-reviewed paper, but calling what I wrote as a practicing clinical counsellor with a master's degree in counselling psychology a 'high school' essay on emotional disposition and psychology seems a little rich, no?

If you are indeed, you should be pretty ashamed to have tried to dunk on people with near zero factual evidence of what’s going on within the dressing room/management. Fairly unprofessional right professor?

 

[MS]

That is pure narrative.

He was 'laying the groundwork for a trade in 2023' and then he decides re-sign for the max 8 years...? That is the mother of all flip-flops. Acting "like an ass" the whole way through, somehow, and not just carefully assessing the team for its ability to win.

Besides, there's no way Pettersson can reasonably predict the winning ability of the Canucks in back half of his deal, so that's just another indictment on that being the crux of his decision.

The record of the team flip-flopped. The whole thing was that he wanted to play for a winner. The team started winning. How does that not make sense?

As to the rest: You've been around long enough to know that asking for a source and questioning the validity of information run alongside each other here. It is not a personal attack.

Again, asking for a source or clarification is legitimate. Calling someone a liar or saying they fabricated something because you don't like what you're reading is not.

And yet Pettersson's 102 point season gives him no grace?

Hughes is a Hart-level player. The wrong barometer.

I don't like where Pettersson's game is at either, but I remind you: When I made the comment that it would be an unlikely bet to see Pettersson reach 100+ points at the end of 2021, you scoffed at this saying the data was there to support such a notion. There's a stronger case now as it would be a return to form, rather than something he's never achieved. Tread lightly...

This is a 'ceiling' player. He's the type to change perceptions dramatically (See Hughes).

I've never said he wouldn't return to form. He's the strangest athlete I've ever seen. Like I said before this season started, it wouldn't have surprised me if he scored 120 points and won the Selke this year and it wouldn't have surprised me if he scored 50 points and was the team's biggest whipping boy and one of the worst contracts in the NHL. It's bizarre. He's a bizarre player. It's a bizarre situation. He's either brilliant or horrible and there's no middle ground. Maybe this is what it was like having Kovalev on your team, or whatever. I've never seen anything like it following this team.

I don't want to trade him, for the record. I find him unlikeable and absolutely infuriating to watch, but he's elite when he's playing well and is the sort of game-changing talent that wins championships. You want to fix him. But there's a breaking point somewhere, and it doesn't feel like we're terribly far away from it.

 

[NoShowWilly]

Can you guys link this data?

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

If you are indeed, you should be pretty ashamed to have tried to dunk on people with near zero factual evidence of what’s going on within the dressing room/management. Fairly unprofessional right professor?

Good talk.

-

Going back to the double standards here.

When Petey struggled in 2021 there were a myriad of mental factors. We were still in the midst/emerging from covid lockdowns, the team was in a poisonous place, and Petey seemed to escape mentally into social media in a way that he admitted later was a problem and required refocus.

You know when people tend to escape excessively into diversions in a way that doesn't serve them? Quite often it's as a way of escaping intolerable emotions, or as self medication. So think, depression, anxiety, etc.

To me, Petey's a small town kid from Sweden who was suddenly alone on the other side of the world while we went through a terrifying pandemic and he was isolated from everyone he loves. I think he struggled, probably didn't train hard enough, and hence he wasn't fully there mentally, and his fitness wasn't up to snuff.

So to me, it's not a gotcha to note that his skating wasn't great before he hurt his wrist that year.

And surely all of those who are patient with J.T.'s mental health will afford the same consideration to Petey when he went through that right? What's that? They won't? It runs contrary to their, 'he's a dumb p***y who doesn't care' narrative? Well God forbid they have to lose their searing hatred for one of the best players we have ever had.

-
This doesn't look like that. He has no bounce in his stride (as edge stats illuminate) but he's working his bag off and doing a lot of good work defensively and finding a way to produce in the last month.

I'm really, really confused by those who seem to WANT the problem to be that he's some sort of unemployable bum with oppositional defiant disorder who just doesn't care because he's bad and smelly.

Like is this really your relationship with your hobby?

The record of the team flip-flopped. The whole thing was that he wanted to play for a winner. The team started winning. How does that not make sense?



Again, asking for a source or clarification is legitimate. Calling someone a liar or saying they fabricated something because you don't like what you're reading is not.



I've never said he wouldn't return to form. He's the strangest athlete I've ever seen. Like I said before this season started, it wouldn't have surprised me if he scored 120 points and won the Selke this year and it wouldn't have surprised me if he scored 50 points and was the team's biggest whipping boy and one of the worst contracts in the NHL. It's bizarre. He's a bizarre player. It's a bizarre situation. He's either brilliant or horrible and there's no middle ground. Maybe this is what it was like having Kovalev on your team, or whatever. I've never seen anything like it following this team.

I don't want to trade him, for the record. I find him unlikeable and absolutely infuriating to watch, but he's elite when he's playing well and is the sort of game-changing talent that wins championships. You want to fix him. But there's a breaking point somewhere, and it doesn't feel like we're terribly far away from it.

Are you serious?

Alex Mogilny post 1996 was the player that you seem to think Petey is, and I say that as a Mogilny fanboy.

Todd Bertuzzi would be another, but I guess since he's yelly and fighty it doesn't count?

 

[Nomobo]

There’s too much smoke here for there not to be a smouldering fire.
I think Petterson will be moved.
Talked to a friend today, a 40 year season ticket holder and he was telling me about the recent times he’s run into some players at the rink. He was sitting next to Boeser and Miller having breakfast and tried to strike up conversation. He described Miller as being ‘cold’ but Boeser was willing to chat and came across as friendly.
Also ran into Debrusk who he described as very down to earth and chatted with him for about 15 mins.
At one point EP40came out of an elevator and without looking or saying anything walked past two tables of Canucks and out the door.
Not all is kosher in the room…

 

[MS]

Are you serious?

Alex Mogilny post 1996 was the player that you seem to think Petey is, and I say that as a Mogilny fanboy.

Todd Bertuzzi would be another, but I guess since he's yelly and fighty it doesn't count?

Bertuzzi found something, had 1.5 brilliant years, and then lost it. He was kinda dumb and the 'push-off' penalty vendetta against him just seemed to break him. Then Moore happened and ... I don't think there's too much mystery there.

Mogilny is superficially like Pettersson in some ways but I don't think he was. He was playing with godawful linemates in a ridiculously low-scoring era and being judged against numbers he put up when scoring was way higher. I always found the compete criticisms of him to be BS.

And neither was having half-seasons where he scored at a 35-point pace or 1 ESG in 40 games or stuff like that. This is a total other level.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Bertuzzi found something, had 1.5 brilliant years, and then lost it. He was kinda dumb and the 'push-off' penalty vendetta against him just seemed to break him. Then Moore happened and ... I don't think there's too much mystery there.

Mogilny is superficially like Pettersson in some ways but I don't think he was. He was playing with godawful linemates in a ridiculously low-scoring era and being judged against numbers he put up when scoring was way higher. I always found the compete criticisms of him to be BS.

And neither was having half-seasons where he scored at a 35-point pace or 1 ESG in 40 games or stuff like that. This is a total other level.

Think of Bertuzzi before the 10 game suspension when he would score a stunning goal like 5 times a year and float around disinterested most of the rest of the time.

And Mogilny came back in 97-98 from his holdout and was clearly out of shape and didn't give a single shit.

In 99-00 he seemed to find some form again and looked like he'd lost about 15 pounds.

But whatever you think you're seeing from Petey isn't in the same stratosphere.

It's about a year before my time, but from reading accounts I suspect that the end of Nedved's tenure here would be deemed similar to the eras I referred to of Bert and Mogo.

 

[MS]

Think of Bertuzzi before the 10 game suspension when he would score a stunning goal like 5 times a year and float around disinterested most of the rest of the time.

Bertuzzi pre-breakout was just an inconsistent 2nd liner with talent. He wasn't putting together even 10+ games of elite play, much less 100-point seasons.

And Mogilny came back in 97-98 from his holdout and was clearly out of shape and didn't give a single shit.

In 99-00 he seemed to find some form again and looked like he'd lost about 15 pounds.

But whatever you think you're seeing from Petey isn't in the same stratosphere.

It's about a year before my time, but from reading accounts I suspect that the end of Nedved's tenure here would be deemed similar to the eras I referred to of Bert and Mogo.

Mogilny in the 'terrible' season you're talking about still scored 45 points in 51 games, while playing entirely on the 2nd line, mostly with linemates like Sillinger and Zezel.

Yes, Pettersson's highs/lows are on a whole other level.

Nedved had a great year in 1992-93 and then a poor playoffs. Nedved's issues through his career were more that he was a total mercenary than that his compete level was usually a problem.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Bertuzzi pre-breakout was just an inconsistent 2nd liner with talent. He wasn't putting together even 10+ games of elite play, much less 100-point seasons.



Mogilny in the 'terrible' season you're talking about still scored 45 points in 51 games, while playing entirely on the 2nd line, mostly with linemates like Sillinger and Zezel.

Yes, Pettersson's highs/lows are on a whole other level.

Nedved had a great year in 1992-93 and then a poor playoffs. Nedved's issues through his career were more that he was a total mercenary than that his compete level was usually a problem.

Yes, Bertuzzi wasn't putting together elite stretches because he was playing disinterested and not really willing to do the work.

Mogilny was so superlatively talented that he could put up close to a point a game in his sleep, and often did.

Nedved definitely had a problem with looking disinterested. Remember the catastrophe of the Czech Republic in the 96 world cup? I think they even lost to Germany. I will never forget he got knocked over and slid on his back until his momentum had completely stopped before slowly getting up and lumbering towards the continuing play. The announcer was apoplectic and pointed to it as a major symptom of what ailed that Czech squad.

 

[MS]

Yes, Bertuzzi wasn't putting together elite stretches because he was playing disinterested and not really willing to do the work.

Mogilny was so superlatively talented that he could put up close to a point a game in his sleep, and often did.

Nedved definitely had a problem with looking disinterested. Remember the catastrophe of the Czech Republic in the 96 world cup? I think they even lost to Germany. I will never forget he got knocked over and slid on his back until his momentum had completely stopped before slowly getting up and lumbering towards the continuing play. The announcer was apoplectic and pointed to it as a major symptom of what ailed that Czech squad.

Again, none of those guys had the bipolar highs/lows of Pettersson.

And what makes the Pettersson thing weirder is that his compete is excellent when he's playing well. He could win a Selke if the stars aligned. The other guys were all kind of 'flaky' skill players even at the best of times. Pettersson is one of the most complete elite players in the NHL ... and then has 40 games of complete disengaged garbage.