Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - A Forward Who Scores

[strattonius]

I don't think it's being swept off. I think that's a legitimate question to be considered in concert with the other stuff.


I'm just referring to last season with his linemates. The little time he got with Garland during his regular season slump he actually looked decent. Mik was stapled to him and Hog/Lindholm were effectively 4th liners when playing with him.

I don't see any other superstars expected to put up 100 points while getting so heavily deprioritized on linemates. I don't see why that can be one part of the problem in combination with other contributing factors.

We are just expecting him to have a consistent effort and look like the dynamic young phenom we thought we had signed. An 80 pt effort would be a massive improvement let alone 100 pts. We are currently witnessing about a 55 pt player though. This idea that expectations are too high for our 11.7M superstar is hilarious denial.

 

[mriswith]

You basically misquoted me and took another quote out of context to create a strawman, and then mocked it.

Then I lightly called you on it, and you had a tantrum.

And it's basically exactly the same sort of garbage that a couple of you were pulling to get the last thread closed. I'm not the one starting altercations or taking shots at people here.

Which one is a misquote? That you have hundreds of posts about EP where you are putting forth your opinion that he's not trying hard enough and there are no other possible explanations? Or the all caps quote providing an example?

Still have not seen you address his linemates other than posting how he didn't look great on a few shifts with the lotto line or on the PP.

We are just expecting him to have a consistent effort and look like the dynamic young phenom we thought we had signed. An 80 pt effort would be a massive improvement let alone 100 pts. We are currently witnessing about a 55 pt player though. This idea that expectations are too high for our 11.7M superstar is hilarious denial.

I am not saying expectations are too high right now. Everyone agrees that EP is not meeting expectations and we're screwed if he doesn't improve. That is not my argument.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

Guessing this thread's gonna be locked up again by the time the game ends tonight lmao. Holy.

 

[MS]

Which one is a misquote? That you have hundreds of posts about EP where you are putting forth your opinion that he's not trying hard enough and there are no other possible explanations? Or the all caps quote providing an example?

That I said 'he just needs to try harder'.

The problem (same as in 2021) is that he's not competing, not engaged, not moving his feet. This is obvious. Rick Tocchet has said the exact same things.

How to unlock him and get him re-engaged is the question, and I have no idea how that is accomplished. Obviously the solution isn't just telling him to try harder.

I also haven't made '100s of posts' on this, which was a statement made to ridicule my argument.

Still have not seen you address his linemates other than posting how he didn't look great on a few shifts with the lotto line or on the PP.

I literally addressed it in my last post.

For the last 50 games, probably half that time has been spent either on the Lotto Line or with some combination of Hoglander/Garland/Debrusk/Lindholm as linemates. He's looked just as bad and been just as unproductive as with Mikheyev.

And again, JT Miller scored 100 points last year and spent most of the season with Phil Di Giuseppe on his line. It's a pathetic excuse.

I am not saying expectations are too high right now. Everyone agrees that EP is not meeting expectations and we're screwed if he doesn't improve. That is not my argument.

Your argument has been that his decline in play is based primarily on an injury and a) your claims about that injury do not line up with anything provided by the team and b) are simply not in line with the expectations of an elite NHL player to play through minor injuries and compete and contribute.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Guessing this thread's gonna be locked up again by the time the game ends tonight lmao. Holy.

Yup

 

[sandwichbird2023]

He got stuck with two 4th line wingers for nearly his entire slump last year and he didn't get the majority of the Hughes shifts, but still had the same expectations and constant criticism. No one else in the league is expected to put up 100 points a year with two 4th line wingers and not getting the majority of the 1st d pair shifts, I'm pretty sure even prime Crosby didn't have to deal with that.

The treatment EP got would tank any players play even without injury. Maybe not to the exact same extent but other superstars simply don't have to deal with it to that extreme and for so long, so who really knows.

How much of Petey's slump can/should be attribute to this though? He had significant time on the Lotto Line last season as RT tried to get him going, and his play did not improved at all. He also had a couple games with Boeser on his line, that didn't help. He was never took of PP1, and even with a man up and playing with Hughes, he did not look good there either. He still had Hoglander throughout the 2nd half of last season, and while Hoggy isn't the best winger on the team, he did have 20+ goals on the season all at EV. This narrative that Petey had "two 4th line wingers" stapled to him throughout his slump doesn't really reflect reality.

He started this season with Debrusk on his line, and Garland (arguably our best forward this season so far) was added soon after. And while Petey has played a bit better the last few games, he is still so far from the player he can be. At this point, can you still use the "stuck with two 4th line wingers" excuse?

 

[Jay26]

It is definitely a big deal. With you there. It's a chance at a Stanley Cup or not. But man, some people don't show emotions. You have to get over it. Your cultural and interpersonal expectations may be misleading you, and you need to recognize that.

We've seen Pettersson show emotions. My point isn't necessarily about the lack of rah rah emotions. It's about him looking like his head is nowhere near the game. The Sedins weren't rah rah either but there was never any doubt they were in the gene.

Also let me clarify that I'm not vilifying him for this. This is all just to illustrate why I believe the issue is not physical (or mostly non-physical anyway). I know you've already said you agree with this so there's no point in going back and forth.

 

[Bgav]

Can't we all get along

 

[kanucks25]

The linemate and coach excuses fall somewhere between nonsense and laughable - if you iso-cam on the player you should be able to very easily tell he's a shell of his former self.

Or, if he's pouting because he didn't like his linemates at times or doesn't like the coach, that's a whole other can of worms and not even worth talking about because it's impossible to say either way.

It is 100% internal, mental and/or physical.

 

[mriswith]

That I said 'he just needs to try harder'.

The problem (same as in 2021) is that he's not competing, not engaged, not moving his feet. This is obvious. Rick Tocchet has said the exact same things.

How to unlock him and get him re-engaged is the question, and I have no idea how that is accomplished. Obviously the solution isn't just telling him to try harder.

I also haven't made '100s of posts' on this, which was a statement made to ridicule my argument.

How is that not "try harder"? Compete harder, move more, try harder, these are all statements about effort. I also haven't been saying your solution is tell him to try harder, now you're misquoting me.

And you have made 100s of posts on this. I would be absolutely floored if it wasn't easily triple digits on EP's struggles in 2024 discussing his effort level and disqualifying anything other than his effort level.

I literally addressed it in my last post.

For the last 50 games, probably half that time has been spent either on the Lotto Line or with some combination of Hoglander/Garland/Debrusk/Lindholm as linemates. He's looked just as bad and been just as unproductive as with Mikheyev.

And again, JT Miller scored 100 points last year and spent most of the season with Phil Di Giuseppe on his line. It's a pathetic excuse.

I have very clearly been talking about his linemates during his slump last season and Hog/Lindholm were effectively fourth liners while playing with him. Lindholm looked like the reincarnation of Loui when he arrived and mgmt got saved from themselves when he rejected our 7x7. EP looked decent in the very few shifts he had during his slump with Garland last year. Lotto line shifts were rare.

There is a massive, massive difference between having one fourth line winger and two fourth line wingers on your line. Absolutely massive. He also wasn't getting the majority of the Hughes shifts. Why do you not acknowledge this even though I've brought it up over and over? What other expected 100 point superstar has to deal with this?

And using raw points last year doesn't do much. Miller got 100... EP scored 90. In a putrid on ice situation, worst in the league by far for an expected 100 point superstar as far as what he was given to work with.

Your argument has been that his decline in play is based primarily on an injury and a) your claims about that injury do not line up with anything provided by the team and b) are simply not in line with the expectations of an elite NHL player to play through minor injuries and compete and contribute.

No, my argument is actually not dogmatically one single variable.

This is literally my major issue with this entire argument. The core problem. No dogmatic insistence on only one significant contributing factor.

I think there are group of issues contributing of which his injury is one. The eye test saw it instantly, then having an injury confirmed along with the skating data backs it up. That the injury carried into this year and affected his off season training is significant too.

I also think his linemate issue was a massive deal that is getting overlooked because it doesn't fit the narrative. Kuzmenko slumping hurt him but not as much as what he got as a replacement after we traded Kuz. We have seen, over and over, the kind of effect that getting your on ice situation screwed over and around with by coaching can have on players including vets.

Lastly comes the mental side of things but these are more like secondary effects. They matter and are increasingly more valid and weighty as time goes on, but they didn't start the fire. I can believe EP gets in his own head and overthinks things when he's slumping, making it worse, or has some other mental health issues going on.

But they aren't a reasonable explanation of his instantaneous nose dive mid season while pacing career high in points and during a contract year. I can accept this as a reason the slump hit the bottom as hard as it did or as one significant reason it's persisting now, but not as a pure cause at the start.

 

[Jay26]

I don't know how anyone can watch Pettersson play individually and invoke the lineages argument. The guy can barely get a shot on net and can't hold on to the puck or stay on his skates!

 

[bandwagonesque]

The linemate and coach excuses fall somewhere between nonsense and laughable - if you iso-cam on the player you should be able to very easily tell he's a shell of his former self.

Or, if he's pouting because he didn't like his linemates at times or doesn't like the coach, that's a whole other can of worms and not even worth talking about because it's impossible to say either way.

It is 100% internal, mental and/or physical.

Also, when he was on he hardly needed linemates. He'd step into a loose puck and score from 30 feet out, or dangle two defenders cutting to the net and leave a tap in for a trailing player.

Much of the resistance to the idea that he's mentally unprepared seems to be that this requires a leap of intuition. Well ... yeah, if you refuse to accept the team's statements at face value, which I guess I understand to a certain degree, it does. But I'm making that leap. His bearing and expression have always seemed sensitive, egoistical and insecure. If I can recognize that pretty quickly in the people around me I don't see why we should assume we can't in hockey players we watch for a couple of hours every few days. The majority of the time he looks like the person his detractors are describing. And it correlates with his play for the last 50 games. Miller's injured, and sometimes it holds him back, but he's still moving his feet and after every puck.

 

[Tinhorn1]

We've seen Pettersson show emotions. My point isn't necessarily about the lack of rah rah emotions. It's about him looking like his head is nowhere near the game. The Sedins weren't rah rah either but there was never any doubt they were in the gene.

Also let me clarify that I'm not vilifying him for this. This is all just to illustrate why I believe the issue is not physical (or mostly non-physical anyway). I know you've already said you agree with this so there's no point in going back and forth.

Cheers. Yeah, I'm out, ha ha.

 

[MS]

How is that not "try harder"? Compete harder, move more, try harder, these are all statements about effort. I also haven't been saying your solution is tell him to try harder, now you're misquoting me.

And you have made 100s of posts on this. I would be absolutely floored if it wasn't easily triple digits on EP's struggles in 2024 discussing his effort level and disqualifying anything other than his effort level.


I have very clearly been talking about his linemates during his slump last season and Hog/Lindholm were effectively fourth liners while playing with him. Lindholm looked like the reincarnation of Loui when he arrived and mgmt got saved from themselves when he rejected our 7x7. EP looked decent in the very few shifts he had during his slump with Garland last year. Lotto line shifts were rare.

There is a massive, massive difference between having one fourth line winger and two fourth line wingers on your line. Absolutely massive. He also wasn't getting the majority of the Hughes shifts. Why do you not acknowledge this even though I've brought it up over and over? What other expected 100 point superstar has to deal with this?

And using raw points last year doesn't do much. Miller got 100... EP scored 90. In a putrid on ice situation, worst in the league by far for an expected 100 point superstar as far as what he was given to work with.



No, my argument is actually not dogmatically one single variable.

This is literally my major issue with this entire argument. The core problem. No dogmatic insistence on only one significant contributing factor.

I think there are group of issues contributing of which his injury is one. The eye test saw it instantly, then having an injury confirmed along with the skating data backs it up. That the injury carried into this year and affected his off season training is significant too.

I also think his linemate issue was a massive deal that is getting overlooked because it doesn't fit the narrative. Kuzmenko slumping hurt him but not as much as what he got as a replacement after we traded Kuz. We have seen, over and over, the kind of effect that getting your on ice situation screwed over and around with by coaching can have on players including vets.

Lastly comes the mental side of things but these are more like secondary effects. They matter and are increasingly more valid and weighty as time goes on, but they didn't start the fire. I can believe EP gets in his own head and overthinks things when he's slumping, making it worse, or has some other mental health issues going on.

But they aren't a reasonable explanation of his instantaneous nose dive mid season while pacing career high in points and during a contract year. I can accept this as a reason the slump hit the bottom as hard as it did or as one significant reason it's persisting now, but not as a pure cause at the start.

Calling Hoglander and Lindholm in particular '4th liners' in an attempt to defend Pettersson is so ludicrous it's beyond belief. I can't even respond to this shit.

 

[Hodgy]

One argument other posters have disregarded is especially persuasive to me -- if he was injured, I really doubt the team would publicly attribute his poor performance to his approach/attitude, even indirectly. Leaving norms aside, they would have to know it wouldn't help this particular player to be motivated that way.

This is the biggest single thing for me. I think its pretty clear Pettersson has an injury. But players have minor injuries all the time, and play through them all the time, and frankly, we usually don't even hear about a player playing through a minor injury. So, the question is, whether the injury is significant. And basically everything management has done and said suggests that it is not significant, and that the injury is minor. And frankly, this, in my opinion, is pretty consistent with how Pettersson has spoken about the injury as well. He's never framed it as being overly significant, nor has he used it as an excuse. In fact, and this is just my opinion, he seemed sheepish even mentioning the injury at the player exit interviews at the end of last season (and good on him for that).

And sure, is it possible management is just totally wrong about the injury (despite being the ones who have access to the doctors and who have access to Pettersson and likely speak to him about his health on an almost day to day basis)? Sure, but that seems incredibly unlikely to me. And if there was even any real chance that the injury was signifncant, then why wouldn't management be more protective of Pettersson?

When I read this thread and the last one, I see two types of conversations.

First type: Analyze the drop off in his skating that corresponds exactly to his injury timeline in meticulous detail. Analyze the change in his shooting rates and shot selection for the same. Post charts about it. Discuss a wide range of possible explanations for his performance. Agree that EP needs to either do better or if it's injury causing the issue, sit and recover, status quo is a disaster. Confess we don't have all the information and every opinion is ultimately a shot in the dark.

Second type: 100's of posts repeating the same HE'S NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS cliche, oftentimes caps included

I guess the people reading this thread can decide for themselves who is trying to have a nuanced discussion and who is a dogmatic spammer.

I mean, this isn't helpful and to me, isn't even accurate.

An argument I've brought up and seen brought up a dozen times and get disregarded every time by the ultra dogmatic crew is how the slump also coincided with him getting stuck with two 4th line wingers and not getting the majority of the Hughes shifts last year and yet he's still expected to put up 100 points as if he's a prime Crosby.

This argument has been addressed and disregarded countless times because it isn't a very compelling argument. Not only has he played with different better players at even strength over the past 30-40 games or so (inclusive of playoffs) as @MS has already outlined, he's also played on the top powerplay throughout his slump.

And there is a big difference between playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results and looking bad doing it, and playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results but actually looking good. And throughout this slump Pettersson has generally just looked bad at even strength. He doesn't look like a guy that's being held back by his linemates. And he has looked bad on the powerplay while playing with elite talent.

With that all said, I do accept that linemates matters and I am not trying to argue that having better consistent linemates with Pettersson wouldn't help to improve his play. But also true is the fact that Pettersson is now making $11.6 million per season, and frankly, needs to drive his line better.

I don't know what you mean about taking EP criticism personally, but you can't tell me I'm being overly reductive when the part you are calling overly reductive was a direct quote.
outh to soften his position, which is something he certainly isn't doing himself.

I mean, taking one sentence from probably tens of thousands of words @MS has typed on this subject seems pretty reductive.

 

[WTG]

I am not really worried about Pettersson in the long run at all. There is still plenty of time between now and the playoffs to get his head back into the game. He'll figure it out. Took Boeser a few seasons as well when he had mental hardships.

 

[mriswith]

I don't know how anyone can watch Pettersson play individually and invoke the lineages argument. The guy can barely get a shot on net and can't hold on to the puck or stay on his skates!

I'm talking about last season, what started his slump. What caused a player in the middle of a season, pacing a career high in points during contract year to fall off a cliff. Not talking this season right now, my opinion on this season goes more into the other things I've covered than linemates.

Also, when he was on he hardly needed linemates. He'd step into a loose puck and score from 30 feet out, or dangle two defenders cutting to the net and leave a tap in for a trailing player.

I strongly disagree, he's always benefited a lot from having a finisher on his line. Someone who can use the huge amount of space and time that EP generates when he's on his game. It's one of the big reasons Miller was awesome with EP in 2020, EP would draw two or three players and still make a sweet feed to JT who capitalized on all the time and space. Kuz also helped EP.

Calling Hoglander and Lindholm in particular '4th liners' in an attempt to defend Pettersson is so ludicrous it's beyond belief. I can't even respond to this shit.

Lol. Loui 2.0 being effectively a 4th liner is ludicrously beyond belief? Okay. And Hog was literally on the 4th line all season before moving to EP's wing. That's the definition of a 4th liner. And his underperformance on EP's wing is what had all of us down on him over summer despite his regular season production.

 

[God]

i've started watching old petey highlights to cope

 

[MS]

This argument has been addressed and disregarded countless times because it isn't a very compelling argument. Not only has he played with different better players at even strength over the past 30-40 games or so (inclusive of playoffs) as @MS has already outlined, he's also played on the top powerplay throughout his slump.

And there is a big difference between playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results and looking bad doing it, and playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results but actually looking good. And throughout this slump Pettersson has generally just looked bad at even strength. He doesn't look like a guy that's being held back by his linemates. And he has looked bad on the powerplay while playing with elite talent.

I mean, this.

They've tried literally everything with him and he's looked and performed horribly with all of them. And he's been horrible on the PP. It's not a linemate problem.

And trying to frame Hoglander and Lindholm as '4th liners' down the stretch last year is just patently absurd. He was never playing with 'two 4th liners' or anything close. I can't even conceive of the bias involved in trying to spout stuff like this.

For reference on the PP stuff, PP points in the last 53 GP :

Quinn Hughes 20
JT Miller 17
Brock Boeser 14
Elias Pettersson 8

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm talking about last season, what started his slump. What caused a player in the middle of a season, pacing a career high in points during contract year to fall off a cliff. Not talking this season right now, my opinion on this season goes more into the other things I've covered than linemates.


I strongly disagree, he's always benefited a lot from having a finisher on his line. Someone who can use the huge amount of space and time that EP generates when he's on his game. It's one of the big reasons Miller was awesome with EP in 2020, EP would draw two or three players and still make a sweet feed to JT who capitalized on all the time and space. Kuz also helped EP.

Lol. Loui 2.0 being effectively a 4th liner is ludicrously beyond belief? Okay. And Hog was literally on the 4th line all season before moving to EP's wing. That's the definition of a 4th liner. And his underperformance on EP's wing is what had all of us down on him over summer despite his regular season production.

The guy who compared Petey to Loui Eriksson and Huberdeau can't handle you suggesting that Lindholm last year, while on Petey's line, was struggling like a 4th liner. Hmmm...weird

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I am not really worried about Pettersson in the long run at all. There is still plenty of time between now and the playoffs to get his head back into the game. He'll figure it out. Took Boeser a few seasons as well when he had mental hardships.

The good news is he had these extended slumps before and was able to get out of it, eventually. There is no reason to think he can't do it again this time.

The bad news are that this slump is now over 50 games long and came at the worst possible time (the one chance we can go far in the playoff last season); these slumps happens quite frequently (this is at least the 2nd time in his 6 years career); and you cannot be confident that it won't prop up again down the road (at least I'm not confident about it at this point).

Unfortunately, he can't just go from a 100 pt player to a 80 pt player in his slump. He goes all the way from a 100 pt player to a 40 pt guy. When he is bad, he is REAL bad. I don't think there is any way a team can plan and/or compensate for that.

 

[Nucker101]

I am not really worried about Pettersson in the long run at all. There is still plenty of time between now and the playoffs to get his head back into the game. He'll figure it out. Took Boeser a few seasons as well when he had mental hardships.

I'm in this boat but I'd be lying if I wasn't a bit worried about the edge data that shows his speed/shot are both down, especially if those numbers remain the same by Christmas.

 

[Hodgy]

Personally, my thoughts are:

1. Pettersson doesn't have a significant injury that is predominately to blame for his poor play, and this has been my opinion basically since February;

2. Pettersson's linemates have at times been quite poor, but he has also doesn't individually look good with his poor linemates and has played poorly with good linemates whether at even strength or on the powerplay, so the linemates explanation isn't overly compelling;

3. If you are making 11.6 million dollars per year, you need to be able to get better results than Pettersson has while playing through a minor injury or with less than ideal linemates;

4. I think Pettersson is still "trying" and putting in the effort, but he isn't "competing" in the way he needs to or in the way he has in the past. And I think this is a confidence/mental issue. He's too tentative with the puck, and doesn't attack enough, and seems to be too timid or too concerned about contact. He's thinking too much instead of driving the play with the puck; and

5. I don't care about his demeanor or personality. I still generally like Pettersson as a person and don't expect him to necessarily show emotion in any given way.

 

[Jay26]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851721679199965622

Pettersson's struggles are on HIM.

 

[credulous]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851721679199965622

Pettersson's struggles are on HIM.

what's the non-paraphrased version of this?