Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - A Forward Who Scores

[sting101]

Cozens Byram would be tempting

 

[timw33]

I don't see management going for that. Would have to be some kind of "win now"-"win now" trade scenario. I think I saw someone on HF mentioned EP for Zibanejad. Would have to be something crazy like that where the other team is also looking at a massive shake up. Tough trade to pull off.

If we're frustrated with Elias Petterson, Mika Zibanejad would make us want to jump off a bridge.

Agreed.

If his play doesn't sort itself this season, he has to be traded before that NMC kicks in.

There will be teams that want him, we'll get an Eichel package or something back (plus cap space) from CBJ or Anaheim and you move on. It would suck but I don't see how you can double down at that point.

Hopefully it does not come to that.

Dhaliwhal round up today cites talking to Western Conference Executive who thinks that Utah, Chicago, and Buffalo would be very interested in Pettersson if things kept moving sideways.

 

[mathonwy]

Is this the new tank thread?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Now he’s a salary dump. Hahahaha.

Huh..?

No. The team acquiring Pettersson would need to make space for his contract.

He is not a salary dump.

 

[supercanuck]

Awful idea, Zib is 31 and while still productive, generally appears to be on the downswing. NYR would do that in a heartbeat.

If we're frustrated with Elias Petterson, Mika Zibanejad would make us want to jump off a bridge.
...

Sorry yeah. I wasn't saying to make that specific trade, but that it would have to be a trade where both teams wanted a massive change and were giving away an important player to make it happen.

 

[Hodgy]

My point is that appealing to mgmt on anything related to how they're handling an injured player doesn't work after how bad Mik was bungled. Anything.

That's poor logic though. One issue is a medical issue, and one is a PR issue. Very clearly different people and different expertise are involved and to assume that because one is poor the other is poor is illogical.

I did, at least that part of the clip. Saying "I'm fine" does not negate talking about how he has an ongoing, nagging, chronic injury that he worked around all summer and still is working around.

He had to work around it in the offseason and still has to work around it. That is, by definition, significant.

For sure he was working through it in the off season. Presumably he was trying not to exasperate the patellar tendinitis and was doing physiotherapy focused on strengthening the surrounding muscles. That's what my physiotherapy recommended for my patellar tendinitis.

But that doesn't mean the injury is "significant", and when you listen to the interview Pettersson very clearly doesn't think it is:

Petey: i don't know exactly how to explain it, but its like a nagging injury, don't want to go around it easy, but we figured out a way to work around it

Reporter: is part of that maybe some rest in camp

Petey: we'll see, I don't feel any pain right now or after so its....its not a big thing, the knee is fine

If the injury was "significant", in Pettersson's eyes, he wouldn't say it wasn't "a big thing", unless you think he was lying for whatever reason.

Referencing that clip as proof that EP thinks he's fine is like referencing Hronek saying he wasn't injured in the playoffs.

I already discussed this with @pitseleh , but no, I don't think those are analogous. I get why players lie about not being injured as they don't want to use it as an excuse, or be targeted as a result, but I don't know why Pettersson would be honest about the injury and then lie about its severity? Like, why not just lie and say he was healthy at this point? I think the most likely explanation is that Pettersson is just telling the truth.

Look you're just wrong on Garland. He has not been consistent since getting here. His performance was massively different in his first vs second season and it's born out in the ES points plus the eye test.

He was carrying the second line and scoring like a 9m borderline star player when he arrived until Green beat him down, and it took about around 1.5 years to get his mojo back.

I brought him into this because he's a perfect example of how getting f***ed around on the ice can transfer into a long term slump and confidence problems, even in a vet, even in a vet whose calling card is heart and drive and all that good stuff.

Again, my point is that getting screwed around on the ice can directly cause a slump that doesn't instantly go away when you get put back in the correct role/line/ice time. We saw this over and over and over again with Green.

I believe my initial point on Garland wasthat he never looked, relatively speaking, anywhere near as bad as Pettersson has looked, and that's the main reason why I didn't think the comparison was great. And I stand by that. But this is a pretty minor point and I don't really care much to debate it further since we don't fundamentally disagree on the point that linemates matter.

I am absolutely ruling confidence out as an initial cause. I'm sure it's a problem now, and I'm sure at some point last season it was a problem, but it didn't start the fire.

Perhaps you are right. Of course you don't know and it really isn't prudent, logically speaking, to rule things out unless you know for certain that they are not applicable.

You don't randomly get your confidence gutted as a first order effect in the middle of a career season in a contract year. Something causes that first.

There are a ton of other external factors though, like the pressures surrounding the negotiation of his new contract, Tochett's defensive system, Kuzmenko as a linemate cratering. I agree that confidence/mental issues probably weren't the sole first factors though.

The leap of logic to assume with 100% certainty to the point that you're 10000 words into it with me that the documented and well supported still ongoing chronic injury was absolutely not a factor just seems insane to me.

This is a total strawman though. It doesn't reflect my opinion accurately at all, and frankly, its pretty frustrating that we could have this indepth of a debate and you could, whether intentionally or unintentionally, so incorrectly frame my argument. Literally just earlierin the day you posted I said I didn't know the severity of Pettersson's injury and that only Pettersson knows how severe the injury is. Never have I stated that I was certain on this, and my general argument, which I think I have been relatively consistent on, is that I thought and think, that on a balance of probabilities, an injury is not the predominant or primary factor in why Pettersson is playing so poorly.

Same with thinking that a random confidence drop out of nowhere with no reason for it to start during a career year, at the exact same time as the reported injury, is somehow more plausible than the reported injury.

My issue was you conclusively ruling out confidence or mental health as being the cause of the slump. I think that's what I initially took issue with. The bolded, I think, is just another strawman unless I am missing an argument I previously made? I don't recall weighing in on what was the most plausible cause of his slump but perhaps I am wrong.

Could it be that you're just dug in after committing to him not being injured during the playoffs and literally nothing that comes out at this point can change your mind?

Again, this is just a big strawman that you are creating for whatever reason.
The whole idea that I have always rejected that he's injured is just total bullshit.
On May 3rd you and I literally were discussing whether Pettersson was injured:

I said I would be very surprised if he wasn't injured, not that injuries explain away all of his struggles.

Me in reply: Most players have some injury at this time of year. That isn't exactly uncommon or surprising. Good players play through injuries and get good results. Now, ignoring that, on a balance of probabilities, I find it unlikely that Pettersson's injuries are the primary reason why he has been playing poorly since like February or whatever.

What would change your mind that his injury was significant?

If Pettersson or the team described it as something that was significant then I'd accept that. I've never proclaimed to have certainty on this, and have used the phrase "balance of probabilities" many times and for good reason.

 

[F A N]

I want to say, I didn't read those posts, I thought the comments were just the over enthusiastic criticisms of the contract and performance, not personal attacks on the player.

No where did I accuse Petey of causing those disgusting comments.

What I was trying to point out that the decline in performance preceded the new contract.

You quoted and directly responded to a post about disgusting comments and said

That decline caused the increase in that type of comments.
Cause and effect.

So it sure sounds like you accused Petey of causing those disgusting comments. But I'll accept your explanation. Thanks.

 

[rypper]

Yes. You didn't answer the question tho

What happens if he plays lights out for Sweden?

Are you suggesting he'd play lights out for Sweden and then somehow turn it off for Vancouver? How realistic is that.

 

[theguardianII]

You quoted and directly responded to a post about disgusting comments and said



So it sure sounds like you accused Petey of causing those disgusting comments. But I'll accept your explanation. Thanks.

I can't post it any clearer.

I don't support or ever have tearing down a player to that extent.

Even my comments on EP's current play isn't me calling him "dog s**t".
Simply he just isn't fitting in here

AND
That he may find his game again when out from under the magnifying glass of Vancouver, away from all the social media and that the present coaching style just might not fit his game.

If I have negative comments they are more directed towards coach and management decisions.
Regardless of the Adam's award I don't think it ALL Tocchet even though he takes the credit, I do think alot of last year was some management good trades and signings

I am sure if you search forums you will not find any comments about players playing crappy without a possible reason included.

Mostly I have posted I think EP decline is post concussion related because it fit so many areas of his decline.

I never blame a player for accepting the money offered, if it is too much that is on the people who offered it.

Are you suggesting he'd play lights out for Sweden and then somehow turn it off for Vancouver? How realistic is that.

If that does happen then there are internal issues confirmed.

 

[Quinning]

Agreed.

If his play doesn't sort itself this season, he has to be traded before that NMC kicks in.

There will be teams that want him, we'll get an Eichel package or something back (plus cap space) from CBJ or Anaheim and you move on. It would suck but I don't see how you can double down at that point.

Hopefully it does not come to that.

They need to find a Eastern team close to contending with an excess of young talent that is looking for a potential piece to put them over the top. Vegas had that situation and were willing to gamble on Eichel - same thing here more or less.

Target teams that have been close but have failed repeatedly to make the jump from the 1st/2nd round to the 3rd round. Leafs would be perfect if they had anything worth a fart in the wind (although not so much for Petey's mental health).

 

[Quinning]

If we're frustrated with Elias Petterson, Mika Zibanejad would make us want to jump off a bridge.



Dhaliwhal round up today cites talking to Western Conference Executive who thinks that Utah, Chicago, and Buffalo would be very interested in Pettersson if things kept moving sideways.

Utah would be a phenomenal trading partner, they are loaded with young talent and likely looking to make a big splash to recoup their relocation investment. Only issue there is they are in our conference, but honestly if the best package is there I would move him.

 

[credulous]

Utah would be a phenomenal trading partner, they are loaded with young talent and likely looking to make a big splash to recoup their relocation investment. Only issue there is they are in our conference, but honestly if the best package is there I would move him.

utah's best prospects are all long term projects. even if you got like cooley and lamoureux that's a huge step back for this team

 

[Quinning]

utah's best prospects are all long term projects. even if you got like cooley and lamoureux that's a huge step back for this team

Cooley has 8 points in 11 games as a 20 year old. He would be a best case scenario return.

 

[F A N]

Look you're just wrong on Garland. He has not been consistent since getting here. His performance was massively different in his first vs second season and it's born out in the ES points plus the eye test.

He was carrying the second line and scoring like a 9m borderline star player when he arrived until Green beat him down, and it took about around 1.5 years to get his mojo back.

Your comment was directed at @Hodgy and I'm curious what you're saying Garland is as a player. So you're saying he came in and scored like a $9M AAV borderline star player? Then he was beaten down by Green into what exactly? And what type of player should Garland be $AAV wise without Green beating him down? This is relevant to the discussions since you are comparing what happened to Garland with what is happening to Petey right now.

 

[Szechwan]

I'd aim at Fantilli personally, but that does mess with the window. Hard to imagine a return that includes a C and doesn't though.

 

[Hodgy]

Your comment was directed at @Hodgy and I'm curious what you're saying Garland is as a player. So you're saying he came in and scored like a $9M AAV borderline star player? Then he was beaten down by Green into what exactly? And what type of player should Garland be $AAV wise without Green beating him down? This is relevant to the discussions since you are comparing what happened to Garland with what is happening to Petey right now.

@mriswith used referenced Garland in reply to the following comment made by me:

And there is a big difference between playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results and looking bad doing it, and playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results but actually looking good.​

​

Personally, I don't think Garland ever looked that bad, relatively speaking.

 

[Quinning]

I'd aim at Fantilli personally, but that does mess with the window. Hard to imagine a return that includes a C and doesn't though.

Fantilli would be incredible, despite his slower than expexted start. Still cost controlled as well, which would allow them to add additional players to fill some holes.

 

[Bobby9]

Are you suggesting he'd play lights out for Sweden and then somehow turn it off for Vancouver? How realistic is that.

Answering a question w a question so you don’t have to commit to a position. I see you.

 

[rypper]

Answering a question w a question so you don’t have to commit to a position. I see you.

If he plays lights out for Sweden I would expect him to return to Vancouver and do the same.

If he plays lights out for Sweden, I would expect that he would be playing lights out in Vancouver to be selected for Sweden's team.

If he plays lights out for Sweden and comes back to Vancouver and decides to just play like shit.. well that's Pejorative Slured and isn't going to happen.

 

[Regal]

Beating anything is a positive for this team right now

 

[kanucks25]

I'd be shocked if Pettersson didn't make Sweden, even if his poor play continues.

He's going to pickup enough points against bad teams to upkeep a modest scoring total. Like I wouldn't be surprised if he picked up a goal and 3 assists over the next two games vs SJ and ANA which would put him at 8 in 11.

 

[Brookbank]

You hope this is a Nylander in 2019 type of setback.

It most obviously is. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just ignorant of literally all career PPG players that played in this league.

Drance went through all of them and no PPG player in the modern era just collapsed in form and never recovered. It doesn't happen. So everyone needs to calm tf down

 

[Killing Joke]

Don’t think the Canucks should trade him what so ever. I think they should let him rest his knee because it’s clearly causing the issue with skating speed declining and him not being able to get power on his shot like he normally can.

The decline from when he’s at his best speed and shot power wise compared to now. His defense has actually gotten better so it’s not an effort issue with him.

 

[kanucks25]

The problem with the "rest him until he's 100%" argument is that - and someone can correct me if I'm wrong here - playing doesn't make it worse and there's no timeline for when it will heal.

So like, what if he still has this issue through April, May, June? What if it's still there next October? Allegedly it didn't heal over the entire summer.

How long can you afford to keep him out of the lineup? What is a reasonable amount?

 

[F A N]

@mriswith used referenced Garland in reply to the following comment made by me:

And there is a big difference between playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results and looking bad doing it, and playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results but actually looking good.​

​

Personally, I don't think Garland ever looked that bad, relatively speaking.

I completely agree. Garland was never bad. He wasn't as good in his second year but IIRC he suffered a concussion early on and there was something else that limited his ability to shoot.